Question about Authority

[C JMeyer]

Hello, I am newer to CAP and have a fairly good question. I could ask my mentor but I was told i should try here quick. My question is.

say you have a cadet commander at the grade of [c] Msgt. But you have 5 C/2LT's. do the 2LTs still have authority over the Msgt CC. or, even tough he isnt proven to have as much experience, does the Msgt have Seniority over them too?

OR say: I have a 1LT Squadron Commander, and a s/Captain also. would the captain be able to give the commander an order ...i would think not, even thought he is a higher grade. the Commander is higher in the Order of Authority (chain of command if you will)?

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT THANKS.

Reverted to original title and changed message icon - MIKE

[jb512]

Hello, I am newer to CAP and have a fairly good question. I could ask my mentor but I was told i should try here quick. My question is.

say you have a cadet commander at the grade of [c] Msgt. But you have 5 C/2LT's. do the 2LTs still have authority over the Msgt CC. or, even tough he isnt proven to have as much experience, does the Msgt have Seniority over them too?

I wouldn't think the Sergeant should be placed in the position, but since he is I'd say the cadet commander would have authority over the Lieutenants if they are positioned under him in the chain of command when it involves flight/squadron operations.  In other business, he would be junior to them.

OR say: I have a 1LT Squadron Commander, and a s/Captain also. would the captain be able to give the commander an order ...i would think not, even thought he is a higher grade. the Commander is higher in the Order of Authority (chain of command if you will)?

For seniors we tend to operate differently in CAP.  Regardless of rank, the squadron commander has final authority over the members of his/her squadron.  The 1st Lt would still salute and sir/ma'am the Capt, unless in a formation setting where the 1st Lt is acting in that command position.

It's hard to get used to, I know.

[C JMeyer]

Thats kinda what i thought.

Thank You

[MIKE]

Positional authority and grade and rank (seniority) are separate.  The C/MSgt may be the C/CC and have been granted positional authority, but as a C/MSgt the cadet is junior to any cadet officer and must act accordingly... however the cadet officers should respect the authority of the C/MSgt based on his/her position within the chain of command.

Likewise for the seniors, 1st Lt squadron CCs are still junior to captains, but retain postional authority.

[lordmonar]

Position always overrides grade.

Even in the Active military.  The real military avoids many of these problems by making sure that the individual in the position has the grade to match and to move those "senior" to him onto other assignments.

In CAP we can't do that.

So in your position...there are lots of reasons why a lower ranking less experienced cadet may be in the cadet command position.  But the position determines rank not grade.  So the Cadet Commander is the top cadet and everyone is subordinate to him.

That does not mean you render customs and courtesies to him as if he is a C/Capt. he is still a C/MSgt.

[JoeTomasone]

That does not mean you render customs and courtesies to him as if he is a C/Capt. he is still a C/MSgt.

When I was a cadet, we always applied the customs and courtesies to the position with the exception of saluting outdoors.    At a Squadron meeting, the Cadet/CC was always "sir", even when a cadet of higher grade addressed him.   When at a non-Squadron activity, however, he was back to his old non/CC rank.

[MIKE]

When the draft CAPP 151 goes live this issue should be fixed.

[lordmonar]

That does not mean you render customs and courtesies to him as if he is a C/Capt. he is still a C/MSgt.

When I was a cadet, we always applied the customs and courtesies to the position with the exception of saluting outdoors.    At a Squadron meeting, the Cadet/CC was always "sir", even when a cadet of higher grade addressed him.   When at a non-Squadron activity, however, he was back to his old non/CC rank.

I meant that a C/Amn would not salute the C/MSgt C/CC....he would still be respectful and say sir/ma'am...and the C/MSgt would salute the C/2d Lts and call them sir/ma'am.

But when he gave an order....they should obey.

In formation different rules apply....you salute the position of flight commander/squadron commander not the individual standing in that position.

[DC]

I was in the position to be a C/CMSgt in command over two C/1st Lts, I still saluted them, still addressed them as Sir, and the squadron still addressed me as Chief. However, as C/CC, I ran the show, I delegated tasks to them, and if one of them was doing something I didn't like I would, still minding customs and courtesies, politely ask them to stop, or suggest another manner of doing whatever they were doing. It is difficult to draw the line between positional authority and insubordination, but if an NCO is placed a C/CC then obviously someone saw something that got them there. I was lucky, and had the support of my C/Officers and the DCC, so I was allowed much more license.

[mikeylikey]

^Some aspects of the military are the same.  When I was in ROTC, I also was in the National Guard.  I filled the spot a 2LT or even 1LT would fill (Platoon Leader).  At the time I was a Cadet, but was in charge of soldiers who had 15 even 20 years in the service.  They were not required to salute, or call me Sir, but they were expected to follow my orders. 

I have to say it was weird at first, but everyone got used to it.  It actually helped me learn more than my counterparts that just stayed on campus. 

In CAP, there is noting wrong with putting the best qualified person in as Cadet Commander.  I have done that in the past, and no matter the hard feelings at first, everyone seems to get over it.  Things do have a way of working out for the best if you try to do the right thing!   

[lordmonar]

Sometimes it is okay to NOT put your best qualified person into the job....espeically for cadet positions.

Sometimes you put the guy/gal who can learn the most from the position.

If I got some C/Capt who has been C/CC for the last 18 months....he/she is obviously the best qualified cadet....but my new 2nd Lt hot from six months as flight commander....is just the sort of guy I would be looking to put into the C/CC job.