Incident w/Police

[Flying Pig]

As far as deciding where to pull over.  If I wanted to wait, I would have.  Before I make the stop, I have already decided that "this" is the place I want to do it.  Your best to stop as soon as you can.  As a cop, when you don't stop, to me your hiding your dope and sticking your gun in your girlfriends shirt.  Wait, no, the dope goes in the shirt.

I've been in 2 shootings that took place during vehicle stops.  One involved a guy wearing body armor and carrying a suppressed Uzi.  Im working on retiring to Florida like Kach.

[SDF_Specialist]

I'm a Criminal Justice major in school right now. I just finished a class that discussed things like this. Turkal, you say you live in a small town, and the police tend to get excited about small things. Understandable. When you don't have a lot to do, you tend to have as much fun as you can within the limits of the law. That is, if you are an officer who doesn't believe he/she is above the law. I agree with you to a point. Yes, as the manager, you did deserve an explaination as to why there were local police units in front of your store with their lights at full bar. But on the other hand, I sadly have to agree with PA Guy. If you don't approach the cruiser, how are the officers supposed to know that you would like an explaination as to why they are on store property conducting business that is not related to the store directly? My suggestion if this ever happens again is to approach the cruiser with your hands visable, identify yourself, and as if the problem is related to the store. If they officer doesn't give you a response, then you are 100% in the right to feel the way you did. Cops can't ignore you. That's not part of their job description. If they do, well then they are not real cops. The badge means nothing at that point except that your city has bad taste in the people they choose to protect the citizens of your community.

[♠SARKID♠]

Alright, after reading the responses here, I'm going to chalk this up to a combination of both my and the officers fault.  I'm keeping this response short because I hate admitting I'm wrong and the more I type the more it bugs the heck out of me.  I'm going to back out, admit I was wrong in the most part, and leave the thread open for expansion and hijack.

[Flying Pig]

I'm a Criminal Justice major in school right now. I just finished a class that discussed things like this. Turkal, you say you live in a small town, and the police tend to get excited about small things. Understandable. When you don't have a lot to do, you tend to have as much fun as you can within the limits of the law. That is, if you are an officer who doesn't believe he/she is above the law. I agree with you to a point. Yes, as the manager, you did deserve an explaination as to why there were local police units in front of your store with their lights at full bar. But on the other hand, I sadly have to agree with PA Guy. If you don't approach the cruiser, how are the officers supposed to know that you would like an explaination as to why they are on store property conducting business that is not related to the store directly? My suggestion if this ever happens again is to approach the cruiser with your hands visable, identify yourself, and as if the problem is related to the store. If they officer doesn't give you a response, then you are 100% in the right to feel the way you did. Cops can't ignore you. That's not part of their job description. If they do, well then they are not real cops. The badge means nothing at that point except that your city has bad taste in the people they choose to protect the citizens of your community.

In the world of law enforcement, NEVER start off a conversation where police officers are involved with the line, "Im a criminal justice major, and I just finished a class"     As far as ignoring people, although I think SARKID could have received an explanation of sorts, if I took the time to talk to everyone who wanted to know what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.  There is nothing in my "job description" that says I have to provide any explanation to anyone except the guy going to jail.
The police in small towns don't get "excited" about small things.  The difference is that they have the time to deal with them.  Often times I wish I had the time to deal with a suspended license or an unregistered vehicle.  However the sad reality is that we are so busy we have to let them go in the interests of time to go onto other things.  So misdemeanor crimes and quality of life things are left to boil over until they become bigger crimes.

[JohnKachenmeister]

SARKID:

You're not "Wrong."  You didn't know.

no cop is going to get upset with a question from the manager of the store where a stop is being made... "Is my alarm going off?"  "Did you get a call here?"  The few seconds it takes to say, "No, sir, its a traffic stop on this car over here" is not going to cause the collapse of the American Criminal Justice System.

But to just stand there... I'm sure the policemen thought you were just watching the action.  Everybody likes to watch the social train wrecks.

[DrJbdm]

If you guys who are not cops really believe Dan here DERSERVED an explanation then you are really wrong. The honest truth is I as a cop do not have to give you ANY explanation as to why I am there with my lights on.  Now if you come up and ask me, I'll give you a VERY short, not very friendly explanation because I do not have time to deal with you. You are getting in my way at the moment.

  When the stop is done, I'm going on my merry way, I will not sit around and answer every ones questions about the stop...first of all it is not any of their business, second, I don't have to explain what I do to everyone who wants to know.

  I know this is harsh but it's the realities of the job.  Dan, you're a good guy, but as a cop I am not a mind reader. Further, if it was in regard to your store then I promise you, you would know because I would come and talk to you about it.  Other wise it is a safe bet it has nothing to do with your store.  I'll say it again, you did not deserve an explanation nor was this bad experience of yours any fault of the officers.  I'm being blunt but honest.

[JCW0312]

I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

2.  If a backup unit is available, I would then simply advise that he is "Pulling into the Piggly-Wiggly lot," and the other officers would know that this stop is no longer routine.  A second unit would show up, as I would if another officer initiated the stop.

3.  It is NOT unusual for people to stop and watch police activity.  That would explain the success of the TV show "Cops."  A Piggly-Wiggly employee taking a short break from work to watch someone get arrested would not be such an event that I would think it necessary to explain what was happening to him.  If he did not contact me and ask if there was an emergency, I would assume that he was merely curious, and seeking some reality entertainment.

4.  Lastly, a traffic stop is a busy thing, especially if the suspect's actions have triggered a higher level of suspicion.  The officer not only has to write out the citation, watch the suspect, watch for any confederates that approach the suspect, watch for the suspect to try to discard drugs or access a weapon, he must also call in on the radio and be prepared to write down important information that might come in from a background check.

If someone came to me and asked what was going on, I would explain.  But otherwise, I would assume that he was merely a curious bystander.

Since the crews did not approach the store tactically with weapons drawn, there wasn't much to worry about!

John,

Out here in Vegas, Metro PD has begun to advise people to pull in to parking lots that are well lit because they've had a rash of fake police jacking people up. I'm not sure but rumor has it Metro will only do a traffic stop now with a marked vehicle so if an unmarked vehicle is attempting a stop metro is recommending driving to a 7-11 and pulling in there. There is an advantage of lights and store cameras.

I'd have to say that on about 1 in 3 traffic stops I make, the driver pulls onto a lot out of the roadway - and it's something I appreciate. Especially when stopping someone for a violation on a busy road.  If you pull over into the center turn lane of the hometown autobahn and make me have to tell you where to move - you probably just lost your chances of sneaking away with a warning. Probably more than half of the folks I have arrested on traffic stops did not pull onto a parking lot. There's many things that throw up the huge red flags to me, but pulling over onto private property isn't necessarily one of them. There's no such thing as a "routine" traffic stop. If you've seen half of the videos of officers being shot on "routine" stops, you know how true it is.

Going back to the original post, as it's been said here - it's not uncommon for folks to start watching "the action". Even if it's a just a ticket. Many times people see the stop initiated and/or see you speaking with the violator, and know what's going on. If I looked towards ever onlooker and said "It's just a traffic stop, everything is ok", then someone would be on a message board somewhere complaining that a cop was rude and wanted them to move along and was trying  to deny their right to freely stand and watch. You can't figure out which 1 in 8 onlookers isn't aware of the circumstances. As officers, we've gotten pretty used to somebody getting their feelings hurt no matter what we do. If every member of the general public saw what we have to deal with all the time, then they would stop complaining so much. Personally, I don't mind onlookers. They make great witnesses should the violator decide to make a bad decision. But don't expect us to be mind readers. Like I told the fireman the other day who told me he was a fireman AFTER I wrote the ticket - My ESP is broke right now.

I'll agree that there are problems with many officers both on-duty and off-duty. But like someone already said - we hire from the human race as it seems to provide the best pool of candidates. Many problems with officers' behavior can be resolved by a good police administration. Especially in big cities you'll find officers that should have been fired long before they got caught doing the "big" thing. How many times have you seen a former officer on the news that has been indicted for robbing drug dealers or running dope? Many times, they have been charged for "truthfulness" within their department for lying about stuff. A good police administration will nip these problems in the bud. In my department, your career can survive a lot of bad choices, but lying about anything is an easy route out the door. And for that I salute my administration.

[John Bryan]

BTW.....Please don't choose a safe spot to pull over if being stopped by the police.  We are trained to know how to make a safe stop. We need to choose the location. If you fail to stop when we signal, we get real suspicious as if you are trying to hide something, are wanted for something, or are leading us into a trap.  By failing to stop when we signal, you may well be greeted in a more forceful manner---possibly at gunpoint. Plus the law says you must pull over when signalled. Not at your leisure.

Anyone who wants to know more---please feel free to ask here or PM.

First to all the law enforcement officers and public safety folks thanks for your service.

Now as for the comment about officers pick a safe place to make a stop.....I respectfully disagree. I know in the last 20 or so years more Indiana Troopers have been killed on traffic stops when they were hit by vehicles....then have been shot or anything else. We have actually changed the law to make sure traffic moves or slows down. I the always picked a safe place to make a stop this would not be the case.

Also you might pull in a lot where you as the person being pulled over can be seen or even recorded by security cameras....there have been cases of fake cops pulling people over and hurting them or sadly real police being abusive. Again I would not drive 10 miles to find a store lot.

[Flying Pig]

OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

[stillamarine]

OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

You may, but not all LEOs do, and it's sad. I've personally seen FHP and the SO here signal for the stop while on bridges. That's just plain silly.

[mynetdude]

OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

You may, but not all LEOs do, and it's sad. I've personally seen FHP and the SO here signal for the stop while on bridges. That's just plain silly.

I agree that while it may be silly...  I don't know if this is true, I have been told in some states a squad car following you for X miles then signaling you can be construed as harassment so signaling for a stop on a bridge before the LEO reaches X miles as prescribed by law is probably the only way to do it but the question becomes this: If you are an LEO signalling for a stop while on the bridge I would assume that the LEO has two choices: A) decide that stopping the motorist is really not that important if its an expired tag or they are going 5-10mph over the limit etc B) the LEO can convince the driver to stop either with the loud speaker or by having multiple squad cars (and I probably would elect to use B if the motorist was being unsafe (going 50mph over the limit or weaving through traffic or unable to maintain stable control of the vehicle).

I used to live in the bay area, and one smart thing they have done on the bridges down there is they have made "extended" shoulders so if you break down or need to pull over you've got a safety area and these can also be used for traffic stops.  I have never seen LE or 1st responder vehicles on the bay/golden gate bridges unless there was a collision, a stalled vehicle or some other form of medical emergency otherwise you almost never see them on the bridge.

[Flying Pig]

OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

You may, but not all LEOs do, and it's sad. I've personally seen FHP and the SO here signal for the stop while on bridges. That's just plain silly.

I agree that while it may be silly...  I don't know if this is true, I have been told in some states a squad car following you for X miles then signaling you can be construed as harassment so signaling for a stop on a bridge before the LEO reaches X miles as prescribed by law is probably the only way to do it but the question becomes this: If you are an LEO signalling for a stop while on the bridge I would assume that the LEO has two choices: A) decide that stopping the motorist is really not that important if its an expired tag or they are going 5-10mph over the limit etc B) the LEO can convince the driver to stop either with the loud speaker or by having multiple squad cars (and I probably would elect to use B if the motorist was being unsafe (going 50mph over the limit or weaving through traffic or unable to maintain stable control of the vehicle).

I used to live in the bay area, and one smart thing they have done on the bridges down there is they have made "extended" shoulders so if you break down or need to pull over you've got a safety area and these can also be used for traffic stops.  I have never seen LE or 1st responder vehicles on the bay/golden gate bridges unless there was a collision, a stalled vehicle or some other form of medical emergency otherwise you almost never see them on the bridge.

Nope not true.  Urban legend. 

[Stonewall]

I've been a cop for 19 months now and my whole perspective of people has changed dramatically.

First, I work only at night, 2100 to 0700.  I prefer that shift and it isn't bad with a 5 on 4 off schedule.  While stuff happens during the day, most of your average 40 hour a week workers are at home watching TV by the time I start my shift.  Except for the late shift worker, the hungry guy going to Taco Bell for "fourth meal", generally most people I come in contact with are up to no good.  From your basic traffic stop for speeding, tag light out or expired tags, to a "suspicious person" that someone called in.

Unless the person I'm encountering gives me a reason to act aggressively, I initiate my contact the same way with everyone.  Usually I start out with a pleasent "good evening".  But somehow 80% of contacts I make end up with me using my handcuffs, drawing my weapon, wrestling with some tough guy or bringing some juvenile back to their parents at 2 a.m.. 

Maybe it's where I live, because I certainly didn't see this stuff when I lived in Northern Virginia outside of DC, but I wasn't a cop either, and I didn't deal with the general public on a day to day basis.  It kills me to hear stories from CAP members on here and CadetStuff about how they dislike police officers, think they're all crooked or accuse them of carrying a chip on their shoulder.  But you know what, I have a very new found respect for cops in the U.S..  As far as I'm concerned, cops take more abuse; put up with more crap and for the most part, as far as I can tell, very few people give the respect they're due.  Now this doesn't mean saluting a cop or going up to one and saying "thank you", but simply understanding that they (I guess it's "we" now) deal with a lot of dirtbags.  In fact, our whole purpose in life is to deal with people who break the law, no matter how small.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've learned a few things about people in a very short time.  Things that I just can't explain or even understand myself.  From seeing young children either beaten, abused or neglected, to drunk adults who would otherwise be just fine if they didn't t-bone the soccer mom with a van filled with young kids.  Grrr....society.

[Flying Pig]

I feel ya Bro!

[JohnKachenmeister]

If I wanted people to thank me for doing my job, I'd have become a fireman!

[Flying Pig]

Oh come on John......under that tough retired Florida exterior, we know there is a trace of a soul somewhere!!!   Besides, we all know that all fireman do is sit in their lazy boy chairs and watch American Idol. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I tried to make my kid become a fireman.

I personally taught him how to read TV Guide.

[davidsinn]

Bradbury FTW

[Hoser]

When I have been pulled over, I INTENTIONALLY pull into a parking if possible because that removes the potential of the cop getting ironed out by rubberneckers. I've seen it twice in 30 years of EMS. Kach's comment that the person knows he's going to get arrested is typical cop BS.  ---->The assumption that everyone is guilty and only out for themselves. I was doing my part to see the cop that pulled me over goes home at the end of the day.

[davedove]

typical cop BS.  ---->The assumption that everyone is guilty and only out for themselves.

It's not really BS.  Cops HAVE to assume that any encounter could be deadly.  Too many officers have been killed on a "routine" traffic stop.

I always give the police the benefit of the doubt.  They are doing a tough job and seldom receive any recognition for it.