What would constitute impersonating an officer?

Started by RogueLeader, February 26, 2008, 05:41:11 PM

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SarDragon

Oh, look, you've got a fresh crowd to whine to. We listened to your sad tale two years ago, and weren't impressed by it then. Let it go; it's ancient history.

If you have something functional to contribute, we'll be glad to look, but rehashing something that absolutely no one on this forum can do anything about is wasting your time and ours.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Dracosbane

Maj. Bowles, I believe he was just answering my question.  Whining about it or not, he was giving me facts that I asked for.

However, in response to his problem, there should be no issue at all with a cadet wearing an officer cap in a color guard.  Especially since CAPP 52-8 is full of pictures with cadets wearing the officer caps in a colors element, drill team, and honor guard.  Just because the NCC color guard uniform only specifies the flight cap doesn't make that the only uniform for color guards.  And especially since it was published in 2003.

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Dracosbane on February 27, 2010, 01:21:01 AM
Maj. Bowles, I believe he was just answering my question.  Whining about it or not, he was giving me facts that I asked for.

However, in response to his problem, there should be no issue at all with a cadet wearing an officer cap in a color guard.  Especially since CAPP 52-8 is full of pictures with cadets wearing the officer caps in a colors element, drill team, and honor guard.  Just because the NCC color guard uniform only specifies the flight cap doesn't make that the only uniform for color guards.  And especially since it was published in 2003.

CAPP 52-8 has no binding authority over uniform wear.    However, CAPM 39-1 specifically states that Honor Guard members wear the Service Cap WITH the Cadet Officer device while performing Honor Guard duties.   

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 2-1, pp. 51
NOTE: Cadet NCOs and Airmen will not
wear the service cap. (EXCEPTION: Cadet
honor guards may wear service cap. See
Chapter 3 for details).

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Section 3-1, pp. 67
The honor guard uniform consists
of the service dress uniform coat with epaulets and slacks/trousers, male service cap with cadet officer
cap device
, white ascot with Honor Guard patch, metallic silver shoulder cord, white pistol belt, white
gloves, and a brown non-operating parade rifle with white leather sling.

Page 68 clearly shows what appears to be a C/CMSGT wearing said cap.


Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 3-1, pp. 69
All members will wear male service cap with cadet officer cap device; in
addition to the front chinstrap, a functional rear chinstrap with buckle will be
worn. When performing, the rear chinstrap will be placed under the
member's chin. This is a safety factor.


The irony here, of course, is that wearing the flight cap while performing Honor Guard duties would be a violation of 39-1.  :)



Dracosbane

I wasn't attempting to make it seem as if the 52-8 was the authority, I was merely pointing out the myriad of pictures with cadets in the saucer caps.  I figured the mere fact that the whole publication was chock full of cadets in the saucer caps was evidence enough that it was acceptable.

But I appreciate the followup.    :D

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Dracosbane on February 27, 2010, 05:51:23 AM
I wasn't attempting to make it seem as if the 52-8 was the authority, I was merely pointing out the myriad of pictures with cadets in the saucer caps.  I figured the mere fact that the whole publication was chock full of cadets in the saucer caps was evidence enough that it was acceptable.



Gotcha, but there may be folks on CAPTalk who might get the wrong impression/idea and think that every picture published by CAP is 100% IAW regulations (*cough* Volunteer *cough*).   Just wanted to make it clear for all who may read the thread that 39-1 controls no matter what you see or hear elsewhere.


Dracosbane


B.Kahuna

JoeTomasone is right. The Honor Guard uniform DOES require the male officer hat as specified by CAPM 39-1. (Page 67 ish) And, per 52-8, Honor Guards are created by nothing lower than wing level. So unless they have the wing's approval and the full honor guard uniform, they shouldn't be labeling themselves Honor Guards.
That's a big peeve of mine-color guards calling themselves honor guards without realizing that CG is only one aspect of CAP honor guard.

Dracosbane

Actually, if you read the 52-8, honor guards are acceptable at the local level, with wing commander approval.  Most units won't build an honor guard, as size might make a difference there with the drill teams and the drama and funeral elements.  Although with honor guards as opposed to color guards, officers are allowed to be involved, so that can increase numbers.

Pylon

Quote from: Dracosbane on March 03, 2010, 05:11:15 PM
Although with honor guards as opposed to color guards, officers are allowed to be involved, so that can increase numbers.

Without trying to further derail this topic, cadet officers can serve in color guards at any time.  They simply can't compete in a color guard in the NCGC/NCC series of events (but they may still accompany such a team as an advisor/trainer/etc.).  Common myth.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Spike

Quote from: Pylon on March 03, 2010, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: Dracosbane on March 03, 2010, 05:11:15 PM
Although with honor guards as opposed to color guards, officers are allowed to be involved, so that can increase numbers.

Without trying to further derail this topic, cadet officers can serve in color guards at any time.  They simply can't compete in a color guard in the NCGC/NCC series of events (but they may still accompany such a team as an advisor/trainer/etc.).  Common myth.

Why are Cadet Officers not allowed to compete?  I never understood that.

jimmydeanno

It might have a basis in the the learning objectives of the cadet program.

C/NCOs are supposed to learn how to be leaders of small teams.

I'd like to think it was that, but probably more along the tradition that Color Guards and Honor Guards in the Air Force are comprised of enlisted personnel.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

ßτε

#92
Quote from: Pylon on March 03, 2010, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: Dracosbane on March 03, 2010, 05:11:15 PM
Although with honor guards as opposed to color guards, officers are allowed to be involved, so that can increase numbers.

Without trying to further derail this topic, cadet officers can serve in color guards at any time.  They simply can't compete in a color guard in the NCGC/NCC series of events (but they may still accompany such a team as an advisor/trainer/etc.).  Common myth.

A myth with a basis in fact.

Quote from: CAPM 50-3 Leadership Laboratory ManualThe color guard consists of two non-commissioned officer cadets who are the flag bearers and two experienced cadets below the grade of staff sergeant who are the guards.

Quote from: AFMAN 36-22037.32.1. When practical, the color guard consists of two NCOs (the flagbearers) and two experienced airmen (the guards).

Spike

^ ahhh.....Facts.  Who would have thought CAP would do anything based on fact and truth.   >:D

nesagsar

I would love to add some stories from my old color guard but it seems that we got off topic.

Pingree1492

Quote from: bte on March 03, 2010, 08:45:48 PM
Quote from: Pylon on March 03, 2010, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: Dracosbane on March 03, 2010, 05:11:15 PM
Although with honor guards as opposed to color guards, officers are allowed to be involved, so that can increase numbers.

Without trying to further derail this topic, cadet officers can serve in color guards at any time.  They simply can't compete in a color guard in the NCGC/NCC series of events (but they may still accompany such a team as an advisor/trainer/etc.).  Common myth.

A myth with a basis in fact.

Quote from: CAPM 50-3 Leadership Laboratory ManualThe color guard consists of two non-commissioned officer cadets who are the flag bearers and two experienced cadets below the grade of staff sergeant who are the guards.

Quote from: AFMAN 36-22037.32.1. When practical, the color guard consists of two NCOs (the flagbearers) and two experienced airmen (the guards).

CAPM 50-3??  Really?  That's now at least two revisions out of date...

And, you'll notice that the quote from the D&C Manual says "when practical..."  If it's not practical to set up your color guard per the ideal stated above (for example, you don't have cadet volunteers available of the correct rank), then you'll just have to make it work with who's available (if they're either all cadet airmen, cadet NCO's or cadet officers, or a mix thereof).

Preference should be given to a team of the 'recommended' makeup, and all of the same height.  But, in my experience that hardly ever works out.


EDIT:  My sincere apologies for further derailing this thread- if the color guard discussion needs to continue, we should start a new thread
On CAP Hiatus- the U.S. Army is kindly letting me play with some of their really cool toys (helicopters) in far off, distant lands  :)