VSAF Annoucement

[RiverAux]

Personally... I dont understand why the wearing of Gray rank slides on Blues, or Ultramarine backed rank on BDUs would cause the USAF to have a problem. However, I bow to their wishes and will simply state that in a sense Im used to it from my time in the CGAux. ( We wear the CG Crest in place of rank when augmenting) ... maybe an embroidered CAP Triangle and Prop (Or the AF Shield and Eagle) would work for us. Dont know...

I have done some augmenting as a CG Auxie and have no problem wearing the Aux crest while doing it, and actually that is all I wear on any of my CG Aux uniforms.  The difference is that the CG Aux office insignia that I am entitled to don't represent anything I did to earn them...they just represent a staff position I held in the organization. 

However, I have had to earn my CAP rank the hard way -- no special promotions for me.  I met the criteria to earn that rank through my own effort and I feel that I should be allowed to wear them if I had the opportunity to augment for the AF.  It is an entirely different situation in my book. 

The funny thing is that the AF is apparently all worried about these VSAF folks who will be working side by side with AF people all the time.  Those AF people are going to know who they are and they certainly aren't going to get confused about their authority or whatever the AF cares about.  However, I can find all sorts of other opportunities to go on base in my CAP uniform and go trolling for salutes all day long if I cared to do so.  That isn't affected at all. 

Would I refuse to participate in VSAF over the rank thing?  No, because I really do think the AF will eventually relent on it, just as they have apparently started to do so on the civilian-only uniform issue.  It just isn't practical for CAP members to have multiple BDU/flightsuit/whatever both with and without rank. 

[Gunner C]

Well, I guess this is a personal problem.

I soldiered for my rank.  I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS.  I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.

My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!

Airborne!  Kach.  As I said before, we're seeing what USAF really thinks of us.  Kinda sad, but not unexpected.

GC

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, I guess this is a personal problem.

I soldiered for my rank.  I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS.  I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.

My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!

Airborne!  Kach.  As I said before, we're seeing what USAF really thinks of us.  Kinda sad, but not unexpected.

GC

Gunner:

Actually, I think we are seeing what our OWN  leaders think of us.  The Air Force here at Patrick wants us to wear the Uniform of the Day, BDU or flight suit... WITH RANK!

We deal with the public augmenting the PA office by giving tours of the USAF Missile Museum (which is on a secure base, access is only by organized tours) and the Air Force has no interest in us dressing to look like retail sales associates.

[Dragoon]

So the Group CC contacted the National VSAF guy who talked to all the other big shots and gave me a "go" on BDU's, but without rank on them. Believe it or not, they even offered to send me another BDU top if I didn't have an extra one or didn't want to buy one!   

And that is where I wash my hands with CAP.  They push rank and grade for everything, then say when working with the AF.....you don't wear it.  Then here is the legal solution.  They give a contractor ID card, and put you in the freaking Civilian version of the BDU/ABU. 

We need to write some letters here and either all go for getting rid of our rank and grade in CAP, or tell them we want changes.  Is anyone else sick at what is happening?

Maybe I will be back next week.   

I don't think "they" (meaning USAF) push for rank and grade.  WE push for that.

USAF knows what a Major is.  And what a major isn't.  Most of ours fall into the "isn't" category.  That ain't a slam, just a fact.

I've been predicting this for years - the closer we want to work with USAF, the more we're gonna have to give up the military trappings and be treated for what we really are - unpaid USAF civilians.

Personally, if the only acceptable choices are to be treated as an "real" USAF civilian, or as a "pretend" officer - I'll take the former.

To demand more than that requires explaining why we need officer grade and yet the thousands upon thousands of full time USAF civilians don't.......

[Dragoon]

Gunner:

Actually, I think we are seeing what our OWN  leaders think of us.  The Air Force here at Patrick wants us to wear the Uniform of the Day, BDU or flight suit... WITH RANK!

We deal with the public augmenting the PA office by giving tours of the USAF Missile Museum (which is on a secure base, access is only by organized tours) and the Air Force has no interest in us dressing to look like retail sales associates.
[/quote]

You're in a unique situation - USAF wants to get credit for coughing up Officers to act as tour guides, without actually having to give up officers.  They have no problem if you get "confused" with real officers. In fact, that works to their advantage (as long as they choose their CAP-ers carefully, which I'm sure they do.)

Most VSAF positions are serving USAF personnel, not visitors.  In those situations, the confusion does USAF no good.

[mikeylikey]

^ What confusion?  I am confused by your post.  We have so much crap on our uniforms that scream " NOT AIR FORCE" we could hardly be mistaken for an AF Officer.  Now you want to be mistaken for a military Officer, join the American Cadet Alliance.  You have to physically walk withing 2 inches of an ACA Officer to tell the difference between them and the real deal. 

The whole thing is stupid.  Lets use the VSAF program to finally get rid of rank in CAP.  There is no logical reason for it.....is there?

I mean come on, everyone here can still do their CAP jobs at the local unit with or without rank insignia right? 

We have turned wearing rank in CAP into a "feel good about myself" issue.  What the crap happened?  I would like to meet the guy that came up with the idea that every adult member of CAP should be an Officer.  If I could travel back in time, I would need only 3 minutes with the terd to correct the future state of affairs we find ourselves in.

Maybe it is just me, but this week has been sucking and everything I read here just keeps adding to reasons why CAP is starting to suck.  I hate to say it here too, but stupidness like this is a reason we are not at 100,000 members. 

So......I say to everyone that says we should not wear rank insignia.....you are correct.  However, your reasons why may vary from mine.  Face it.....in life some people should not be an Officer, and I have met my fair share in CAP.

Back to VSAF.....I hate to say it, but I still think the program will fail on its own.  And that right there is a shame.  It could have been a terrific way to get the ordinary CAP member (in whatever uniform) on the Air Force team. 

BASH away 

[RiverAux]

I am sure that in some places VSAF won't work either because the AF officers don't really want to make it work, or the CAP people who want to do it aren't of sufficient quality, or perhaps no one on either side will care enough about it to make it work.  The CG Aux sees the same thing all over the country.  However, just because it doesn't work in one place at one particular time doesn't mean it can't work spectacularly someplace else or at the same place after a few personnel changes.

[JohnKachenmeister]

And.. to continue bashing...

I don't blame the Air Force.  THEY are not confused by rank.

I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.

Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.

[JayT]

And.. to continue bashing...

I don't blame the Air Force.  THEY are not confused by rank.

I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.

Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.

Indulging in some self loathing of the program sir?

[JohnKachenmeister]

No.

Merely continuing the program of criticizing those who do.

But... nice try, Kid!

[ddelaney103]

And.. to continue bashing...

I don't blame the Air Force.  THEY are not confused by rank.

I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.

Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.

Nice idea, but it won't work.

I suspect your job has heavy restrictions: they're not going to take any fat or fuzzy troops, or those that can't pass themselves off as real officers and talk their way through the museum.

As to the AF - OF COURSE they're going to be confused by the grade.  They're trained to salute those in military uniform wearing officer grade and unless they're briefed on who and what CAP is, that's just what they're going to do.  Even in the case of our current VSAF member, who has a job of more importance than average, he's not doing officer work.

Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done.  They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.

Museum work is a good job for "Potemkin officers," as it involves looking like an officer without officer duties.  In the Pentagon, tours are led by E-1 to E-4 HG members.  I doubt will find enough of that type of work for most CAP members to indulge their vanity that way.

[JohnKachenmeister]

And.. to continue bashing...

I don't blame the Air Force.  THEY are not confused by rank.

I blame our own leadership for having such a low opinion of us that they are willing to put us into a uniform resembling a retail sales associate and require us to repeat "We're not worthy" over and over again.

Yes, the museum program allows them to use us as officers for free without having to commit an officer of their own. Such should be the whole idea of VSAF.

Nice idea, but it won't work.

I suspect your job has heavy restrictions: they're not going to take any fat or fuzzy troops, or those that can't pass themselves off as real officers and talk their way through the museum.

As to the AF - OF COURSE they're going to be confused by the grade.  They're trained to salute those in military uniform wearing officer grade and unless they're briefed on who and what CAP is, that's just what they're going to do.  Even in the case of our current VSAF member, who has a job of more importance than average, he's not doing officer work.

Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done.  They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.

Museum work is a good job for "Potemkin officers," as it involves looking like an officer without officer duties.  In the Pentagon, tours are led by E-1 to E-4 HG members.  I doubt will find enough of that type of work for most CAP members to indulge their vanity that way.

First off, the museum program is ongoing and has been operational for more than a year without problems.  The only glitch was that some active duty AF officers questioned why CAP officers were wearing "Outdated" insignia.  (Plastic-encased metal rank and leather name badges on the flight suit.)  This was resolved expeditiously.

Second, AF guys are clearly clued in that CAP rank is awarded as a courtesy, not as a matter of having a Presidential commission.  There may be some confusion if there is interaction with other service branches, but the AF guys fully understand CAP's role in the overall scheme of things rank-related. 

Third, and this is important, the only assignment consideration should be that the duty should not be inconsistent with officer rank.  This is probably a no-brainer, since you will not get people to volunteer for menial tasks like policing the area.  There are many jobs that do not involve command or supervisory authority over AF personnel.  Planning exercises, like the guy who started this post, is one.  Public Affairs is another.  Admin jobs, jobs in logistics and contracting, assisting in flight planning, etc.

Fourth, how do you get airmen, NCO's and officers to get fired up about joining CAP after their term of service if you dress your people like retail sales associates?  The VSAF program could be an important recruiting tool if managed properly, especially with respect to those AF folks retiring from active duty.  It would give them a chance to continue serving, continue valuable personal contacts and comradery, and continue a military connection with the Air Force.  Frankly, here on the Space Coast we recruit a LOT of military retirees.  But we dress them in the Air Force uniform.

And... The Air Force welcomes the chubby and hirsuite.  As far as "Talking your way through the museum," that IS the job, after all.  If you are not good at public speaking you probably won't want to volunteer for the mission.  But if you are good at speaking, we have a 4-month training program to bring you up to speed on the exhibits.

We are pretty proud of the program we put together, and it works well.  We had it before NHQ came up with their program, and we developed it at the request of the Air Force.

[JayT]

Edit.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, yes.  You probably are off base, if I could understand the point you are trying to make.

To the extent that I THINK I understand your point, I offer the following in rebuttal:

1.  CAP is a military auxiliary.  To try to distort it into a parody of a corporation diminishes the heritage of our organization, distances us farther from the parent organization, and does a dis-service to those who served in combat as members of our organization.

2.  Those who endeavor to create this corporate mindset only do so because they lack any connection to the military.  They have never served on active duty, their "Officer training" comes from Hollywood, and they do not understand the bonds of comradery that are shared among military people.  Therefore, they try to re-create the organization in the image of that which they understand.  Rather than seek training and experience to bring their military skills and attitudes into line with the parent organization, they seek to divorce us (or at least legally separate us) from the Air Force, and create a silly uniformed corporation.  The consequences of this attitude are far-reaching and they are not good.

3.  A uniform that looks like a retail sales associate is not a "Perfectly acceptable uniform."

[mikeylikey]

Officer work, as you are well aware, involves leading/directing Airmen in getting the job done.  They're not going to let us do that because, besides being a SJA nightmare, the vast majority of CAP members couldn't be officers on a bet.

How is that a JAG nightmare?  Also, Civilians lead and direct Officers all the time.  We do have a civilian workforce in the military.  Some of those people are even Senior Raters for General Officers.

I just don't think anyone would be so confused by a CAP Officer that they could not follow his or her directions.  However if they are easily confused in the AF, boy am I glad I joined the Army, cause my life my depend on someone that is not so confused.

[Timothy]

I agree. There are many officer staff billets that do not involve subordinates, and even if a VSAF-er is doing a civilian or EM job, who cares? The office staff will know what is going on, and outsiders won't be involved. Regarding deletion of rank, it's not like we added officer rank to CAP in the 1980's. It has been with the org since its inception and is part of the heritage and history of our organization. It may need to be changed, but should not be deleted.

People aren't stupid. Granted, EM's or junior officers may err on the side of caution and throw a salute to a VSAF CAP officer, but that would be no different from our normal visits to base... all you do is return it and move on.

There are hundreds of foreign military officers serving at posts on American bases... some are in exchange programs and may give orders, others observe, or are training here. As officers, they are granted all customs and courtesies thereof, but no one has to worry about airmen running up to them asking for orders. Some of those uniforms are really different than the AF... but some of them are very similar.

Lets suppose you are working VSAF in the USAF uniform, and have a red-cheeked Airman, fresh from Lackland... he asks you something, and you say "I'm sorry Airman X, you need to talk to Major Y about that." CRAP! That was hard. He knows who the man is, the Major gets the question, and no one had to stage an inquisition. The same thing would happen if an airman looked for orders from an active duty AF chaplain Major, etc. It's called training. All it would take is a mandatory short training course to make sure your volunteer knows how to handle that situation in the unlikely chance it occurs, like CPPT.

Even a slow Airman will see blue name tapes or grey shoulder boards and deduce that we are different in some way from the normal AF guys with sage tapes or blue boards.

I know that the gentlemans experience shown here is isolated to his base, but I think that eventually all VSAF will be wearing the UOD in our normal AF style uniforms with full insig and rank. Hell, those guys may end up being the first to wear the ABU. It'll take time for everyone to get used to it, and for the admin to realize that the VSAF uniform will not be suitable for all taskings, as we have already seen here. But I think it will happen.

[Ned]

Granted, EM's or junior officers may err on the side of caution and throw a salute to a VSAF CAP officer, but that would be no different from our normal visits to base... all you do is return it and move on.

Just a minor nitpick on an otherwise good post . . .

It is not an "error" for any member of the armed forces to salute a CAP officer.

It is not a violation of any regulation, rule, or order for them to do so.

And it is never wrong to display a little courtesy to anyone you might bump into in this life.


Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy

[Timothy]

Ned,

Very true. What I meant to convey was that they would be doing it because they would think it required as an AD officer, as opposed to a curtousy to an Aux service. It wuldnt be wrong, just optional. As I said in some different posts, as a ROTC cadet we got saluted on base often. If you arent expecting it, its a plus and is an instant reminder of who and where you are at that given time.

I do WWII awareness on occasion, and while in orig enlisted Army or Navy uniforms I always go out of my way to salute officers that happen to be attending... keeps the guys in WWII officers uiforms on their toes, and never fails to impress the current military AD types... in my book, an officer is an officer.

[mikeylikey]

Tim Good Post! 

I agree with what you wrote. 

[Gunner C]

Well, I guess this is a personal problem.

I soldiered for my rank.  I earned it the hard way, up from the enlisted grades through OCS.  I was an E-1 when I enlisted, a staff sergeant when I got commissioned, and a major when I retired.

My rank, my ribbons, and my gray hairs... I earned 'em, I wear 'em!

Airborne!  Kach.  As I said before, we're seeing what USAF really thinks of us.  Kinda sad, but not unexpected.

GC

Gunner:

Actually, I think we are seeing what our OWN  leaders think of us.  The Air Force here at Patrick wants us to wear the Uniform of the Day, BDU or flight suit... WITH RANK!

We deal with the public augmenting the PA office by giving tours of the USAF Missile Museum (which is on a secure base, access is only by organized tours) and the Air Force has no interest in us dressing to look like retail sales associates.

It may be that big AF wants it that way with big CAP (NHQ) willing to do whatever it takes, make any deal, to get us a new mission (actually, it's not a mission, it's more of a program). 

Probably a combination of AF wanting augmentees but not wanting (in their eyes) pseudo-officers walking around screwing things up; and CAP willing to roll over for just about any reason; and CAP not willing to have high enough standards (read: hardly any) for their members to become officers.

It's a mess.

GC

(BTW, retail associates - that's a good one!  We look like we work at the GAP)