Too Many Chiefs

[Stonewall]

So we have 4 cadet officers and 3 chiefs.  May as well say we'll have 7 cadet officers in the next 2 months.

Problem is, we've got between 12 and 14 cadets at meetings with a total of 20 on the roster.

Anyone else have this issue?  I hate to say it, but I'm about to become DCC and I will inherit this problem.

The most cadet officers I've ever had under my watch has been about 5.  However, we had 30+ active cadets so it was well balanced.

Anyone with similar experience?  Anyone got a fix?  What do you do with top-heavy cadet officers?

With 12 to 14 active cadets, I'd say we need one cadet officer, 2 at best.

Thoughts?  Comments? Recommendations based on experience?

[RiverAux]

Uhh, tell them to go out and recruit some more indians?

[Stonewall]

Uhh, tell them to go out and recruit some more indians?

Yeah, the easy answer.  Already in the plans.

I've been here for a year and it's been the same cadets the entire time, except for maybe 2.  I posed the question and there was no response as to "why" no new members have come in.  I'm sad to say I think it's a situation where cadets are after rank without getting any real solid leadership experience.

[MIKE]

For future reference: Manning document/table.  No slot for that grade = no promotion.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, I've got some experience with a cadet unit that for quite a few years has dramatically underperformed in terms of recruiting new members so I know what you're going through.  

I'm not sure I would put a lot of blame on them.  The thing you have to remember is that kids that age are not terribly inclined to really recruit people they don't know.  They're not going to be walking up to strangers to talk to them about CAP.  Probably all their regular friends now about it and the ones inclined to join, probably will.  Also, if your officers are in high school, they're no longer in direct contact with your prime targets in middle school/junior high.  

[jimmydeanno]

For future reference: Manning document/table.  No slot for that grade = no promotion.

!!! !!!

Is this a proposal or what you actually do? 

[dwb]

I hate to say it, but I'm about to become DCC and I will inherit this problem.

Ah, I knew you'd get roped in!

Check out the new Cadet Staff Handbook NHQ just put out.  That, and the "managing a cadet/senior team" module of the TLC course.  Lots of good ideas in there about how to manage & develop a cadet staff.

[Stonewall]

I hate to say it, but I'm about to become DCC and I will inherit this problem.

Ah, I knew you'd get roped in!

Hey, I've held out for a long time.  I think almost a year.

[Major Lord]

Retaining Cadets in grade because you don't have a manning table slot for them is not an acceptable reason to deny a promotion. You will end up explaining to an IG how you interpreted the rules and denied a cadet a hard-won promotion.

The ebb and flow of Cadet to Cadet Officers Ratio is always fluid. In our Sq, we currently have a low number of low-level cadets and a surplus of NCO's and almost no Cadet Officers ( My Cadet Officers tend to end up in Service Academies, and Universities)

Our solution to the Cadet NCO/Officers  surplus is to assign supernumeraries to staff assistant "consulting" jobs, like Recruiting, Admin, Honor Guard Coordinator, etc.. This keeps them in the loop and available when flight staff is not around. As a matter of practicality and not of policy, these cadets are usually promotion-stagnant. The Cadets intent on continued growth seize the best command slots (as was foretold in the prophecy)

I have served in the Deputy Commander for Cadet several times (with absences for taking the CD-S slot and being deployed as a hired thug) and found that there is no higher level of value and job satisifaction in CAP than in Cadet Programs. Go for it! (But leave time to come out to Cadet Survival School!)

Major Lord

[mikeylikey]

tough situation.  I would let them "go at it", winner take all, losers become Airman again. 

Seriously, just because they are Officers does not mean they stop drilling, falling in for inspection, etc.  Now comes that part where you reference the old Leadership book (2000) with that funky picture of those two cadets standing on the pyramid discussing Rank and Grade.  Do they even have that in the new books?

[MIKE]

Retaining Cadets in grade because you don't have a manning table slot for them is not an acceptable reason to deny a promotion. You will end up explaining to an IG how you interpreted the rules and denied a cadet a hard-won promotion.

And thus we have the above stated situation noted by UK of 7 cadet officers and not much else.

Now comes that part where you reference the old Leadership book (2000) with that funky picture of those two cadets standing on the pyramid discussing Rank and Grade.  Do they even have that in the new books?

The text is there... though butchered by many units, but the pic isn't.

[NIN]

My previous cadet commander came to me with an idea earlier this year, and while I wasn't a complete believer, I said "OK, lets give this a try. I don't have a better idea."

Her idea was to build a 3rd cadet flight, but this flight would be sort of an "advanced training flight."  It would be senior airmen, staff sergeants and tech sergeants for whom we'd do some "different" training with in leadership, drill, etc, preparing them to become element leaders and flight sergeants in the other two cadet flights.

So now, a cadet comes into the unit and they're a c/Amn, after CBT (T-Flight in Stonewall's parlance!) they get assigned to Alpha or Bravo flight.  Alpha and Bravo have three elements, a flight sergeant and a flight commander.  The element leaders are C/SSgts and c/TSgts, the flight sergeant is a C/MSgt or SMSgt, and the flight commander is either a C/CMSgt or a C/2dLt.  Alpha and Bravo flight are doing a lot of "Phase I continuation training" (basic "followership" drill, A1C, SrA leadership & AE, etc).  Once a cadet becomes a C/SrA or C/SSgt, they move over to Charlie Flight, CONTINUE TO PROGRESS, and work on NCO-level leadership training, advanced drill & ceremonies to include "how to teach drill" and that sort of stuff.  After a couple-four months there, they are ready to assume element leader and flight sergeant positions in the other two cadet flights.  The Charlie Flight sergeant is a c/SMSgt or CMSgt, and the flight commander is a C/2dLt and they're "mentoring like crazy" with the help of the cadet staff.   After a stint as the Alpha or Bravo flight sergeant or flight commander, a high speed cadet will probably be asked to be either the flight sergeant or flight commander for the next T-Flight (CBT Flight) cycle.

Its _interesting_ how it allows a pretty natural flow. The cadets going into Charlie Flight "Get away" for a little bit so they can get some training, and then they "come back" to a different flight than they left. If a C/SrA from Alpha looks promising, she'll go over to Charlie for a couple months to get some additional "NCO-specific" training, and then she'll maybe become an element leader in Bravo Flight.  Likewise, a Bravo Flight element leader who just cracked c/TSgt may go back to Charlie Flight for a couple months of specific training, and then he becomes the flight sergeant for Alpha flight...

I was skeptical, but I can see how it seems to work now and its giving people lots of opportunity.

EDIT: never mind the fact that I have enough airmen, NCOs and officers to staff three full flights and a cadet staff, AND a T-flight.. Formation about 2 weeks ago was sporty: Four cadet flights (A, B, C and T), the senior flight, and the cadet staff.  Crazy huge.

[isuhawkeye]

the Iowa ICAPA program addresses this problem every month.  Bringing units together allows those officers who have no indians, and those squadrons with lots of indians and no officers work together to suppor the overall profgram

[Cobra1597]

For future reference: Manning document/table.  No slot for that grade = no promotion.

Unfortunately that isn't very realistic for our programs.

How am I supposed to tell a 18 year old C/1st Lt that he won't be able to apply for IACE because I refuse to promote not because of any personal merit problem of his own, but because there is no "slot" at the squadron?

Grade in CAP for cadets means a lot more than just position.

[MIKE]

Thats part of the problem... it turns into entitlement because you collected all the box tops, not because you lead/staff commiserate with your grade.  Lot of I and me, very little we.

[mikeylikey]

Now comes that part where you reference the old Leadership book (2000) with that funky picture of those two cadets standing on the pyramid discussing Rank and Grade.  Do they even have that in the new books?

The text is there... though butchered by many units, but the pic isn't.

Too bad.....cartoons always seemed to be the answer.

[Psicorp]

Just my take on it:

With that many experienced Cadets, you should have one heck of a good Cadet Staff.  Are they planning, organizing, and taking care of most of the administrative aspects of the Cadet Program? 

I really like NIN's squadron set-up.  I'll have to remember that when our squadron gets that big.

Basic psychology says that when there's one big group, people tend to think it's big enough and don't go looking for new members.  When the one big group is split into two smaller groups, the perception is that there aren't enough members.  Nothing quite like the power of visual persuasion to encourage recruiting. 

I'd suggest rotating out the Cadet Commander at least every 6 months as well as give each Cadet Officer a duty assignment as the assistant to the Senior Members who are working on specialty tracks (Senior Staff).   

[Major Lord]

Mike, I take your point. There are certainly a lot of "paper lieutenants" out there, but its important to remember that we are not building a permanent team, but rather working to help a group of individuals grow. Eventually, we lose them all. If a cadet is not developing, but is just good at passing tests, you should retain them in grade, but I do not see how the regulations allow us to prevent a Cadet from promoting merely because we don't see how their promotion would better serve the unit's best interest. I point out two parts of the 52-16 below. The first, telling us how and why we should promote cadets, and the second, telling us under what circumstances cadets should not be promoted. Perceived collectivist benefit to the unit is not a permissable reason to retain a cadet in grade.

c. System of Achievements. Through study and performance, cadets work through a series of achievements and milestone awards. As cadets progress, they advance in grade, increase the scope of their leadership responsibilities, earn awards, and become eligible for nationally-sponsored special activities and scholarships.

c. Retaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders should retain a cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or deputy commander) will offer constructive feedback to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills. The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days.

Major Lord

[ZigZag911]

For future reference: Manning document/table.  No slot for that grade = no promotion.

This is contrary to CAPR 52-16. Cadet advancement is supposed to reflect their progress in cadet training program, not ensure that that a unit has the right mix of cadet officers, cadet NCOs & cadet airmen.

The squadron facing this situation might consider separating some of the older cadet officers (even C/CMSGTs) from the general cadet population and have them work as staff assistants to senior officers.

[MIKE]

I've already been sufficiently pwned with the reg cites.  Not to mention that CAP used to do it, as do many other cadet programs world wide... And the military.

Even though a manning document would address the issue at hand, I guess we will have to be content with promoting everybody because [darn] it they deserve it rather than actually having to "work for it."  To me a manning document goes hand in hand with that whole phase appropriate role thing.  I would think a little more diversity would make the program work a lot better versus the "merit badge".