Nov 07 NEC -- Cadet Professional Development Credit

[jb512]

If the only reason we can retain cadets as new senior members is giving them meaningless grade, we're not doing our jobs and they don't understand the program.

It's not the only reason.  There are lots of us who came back before any of this was ever proposed.  It just makes sense to give people credit for things they've done and recognize all of their achievements in the organization, not just the ones they've done since they turned 18 (or 21).

You talk to any cadet officer and they'll tell you that the rank they have isn't meaningless.

[Eclipse]

I only meant "meaningless" in the context of the tired auxiliary vs. RealMilitary® discussions...

I suppose I am just trying to use the exceptions to make the rules (which I usually gig people on).  There are just as many cadets who make good senior members out of the box as there are bad ones.

[jb512]

I only meant "meaningless" in the context of the tired auxiliary vs. RealMilitary® discussions...

I suppose I am just trying to use the exceptions to make the rules (which I usually gig people on).  There are just as many cadets who make good senior members out of the box as there are bad ones.

I just get a little bummed at the usual negativity in this board, and I actually think they are trying to do something good with this proposal.  I know it's a topic for another thread, but I think the NCO program proposal is starting well and long overdue.

If you are comparing our rank/grade with the RM, then yes it is meaningless.  However, it is our rank/grade and it should mean something to the people in the organization.  All they are saying is that these guys have BTDT and they shouldn't have to do it again.

[mikeylikey]

So......what does the Mitchell get a Cadet?  Also, why does SPAATZ get anything more than Eaker? 

[Eclipse]

So......what does the Mitchell get a Cadet?

Advanced grade with the RealMilitary®...

Also, why does SPAATZ get anything more than Eaker? 

Last week I posted a story I just heard regarding how Spaatz wound up making a former cadet eligible for Captain as a senior member.

During a lull in a mission this weekend, a fairly seasoned Senior member told me that he was involved on the national committee which ultimately resulted in Spaatz cadets being eligible for Captain upon turning 21.

What this member indicated was that the initial proposal was several pages and included a lot of pretty aggressive professional development requirements in order to achieve the diamonds and receive the advanced grade - multiple encampments including staff positions, staff positions at various unit and higher echelons, NCSA attendance, and various other requirements which would have likely much better prepared cadets to become young leaders in CAP.

The end result of the proposal was that the powers that be at NHQ decided that the front end work and requirements were much too onerous for most cadets, but that "getting Captain for Spaatz was a good idea...". So they tossed the first three pages, adopted the fourth, and the rest is history.

Assuming this is true it makes a lot of sense and would certainly explain how we got where we are today.

No one on CS confirmed or denied it, but based on the source I have no reason to believe its not true...

[arajca]

Um, Spaatz cadets have been eligible for promotion to Capt upon turning senior for many years. Check CAPR 35-5, Sect C, Para 17.

17. Former CAP Cadets. Upon reaching age 21, former CAP cadets who reached certain levels of achievement in the CAP cadet program are eligible for appointment to the senior member officer grades outlined in figure 4. (See figure 7 for grades authorized former cadets under age 21). NOTE: These members are exempt from the orientation portion of Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program provided they have less than a 2-year membership break prior to assuming senior member status. The CPPT must be completed prior to any promotion action.
CADET AWARD GRADE AUTHORIZED
Mitchell Second Lieutenant
Earhart First Lieutenant
Spaatz Captain

[Eclipse]

Um, Spaatz cadets have been eligible for promotion to Capt upon turning senior for many years. Check CAPR 35-5, Sect C, Para 17.

Yes, they have - if you'll re-read the post you'll see I am commenting/asking on the tale told to me regarding >how< the decision to make them eligible for Captain based on attainment of Spaatz was reached.

The insinuation being that the original plan was to make Spaatz a lot harder to reach than it is today, with much of the being on staff assignments where you give back to the program and learn to be a manager.

[Ricochet13]

Um, Spaatz cadets have been eligible for promotion to Capt upon turning senior for many years. Check CAPR 35-5, Sect C, Para 17.

Yes, they have - if you'll re-read the post you'll see I am commenting/asking on the tale told to me regarding >how< the decision to make them eligible for Captain based on attainment of Spaatz was reached.
The insinuation being that the original plan was to make Spaatz a lot harder to reach than it is today, with much of the being on staff assignments where you give back to the program and learn to be a manager.

Too bad the RM doesn't work that way.  I could have skipped being a "butter bar"!   

[mikeylikey]

Um, Spaatz cadets have been eligible for promotion to Capt upon turning senior for many years. Check CAPR 35-5, Sect C, Para 17.

Yes, they have - if you'll re-read the post you'll see I am commenting/asking on the tale told to me regarding >how< the decision to make them eligible for Captain based on attainment of Spaatz was reached.
The insinuation being that the original plan was to make Spaatz a lot harder to reach than it is today, with much of the being on staff assignments where you give back to the program and learn to be a manager.

Too bad the RM doesn't work that way.  I could have skipped being a "butter bar"!   

The RM will allow certain cadets who completed certain achievements in CAP to skip certain ROTC courses if I am not mistaken.  I know AFROTC allows the first year to be audited if you were a CAP Cadet who received the Mitchell.  I am also sure I heard of other ROTC cadets skipping half the second year for having received their SPAATZ.  I am not sure if it is up to the Detachment Commander or if it is automatic.

[jb512]

Um, Spaatz cadets have been eligible for promotion to Capt upon turning senior for many years. Check CAPR 35-5, Sect C, Para 17.

Yes, they have - if you'll re-read the post you'll see I am commenting/asking on the tale told to me regarding >how< the decision to make them eligible for Captain based on attainment of Spaatz was reached.
The insinuation being that the original plan was to make Spaatz a lot harder to reach than it is today, with much of the being on staff assignments where you give back to the program and learn to be a manager.

Too bad the RM doesn't work that way.  I could have skipped being a "butter bar"!   

The RM actually does work that way.  The Army places senior NCOs selected for Warrant Officer grade to CW2, and my mother was commissioned as a 1LT when she became a RN about 8 years ago or so.  I'm sure those aren't the only examples.

[Ricochet13]

Um, Spaatz cadets have been eligible for promotion to Capt upon turning senior for many years. Check CAPR 35-5, Sect C, Para 17.

Yes, they have - if you'll re-read the post you'll see I am commenting/asking on the tale told to me regarding >how< the decision to make them eligible for Captain based on attainment of Spaatz was reached.
The insinuation being that the original plan was to make Spaatz a lot harder to reach than it is today, with much of the being on staff assignments where you give back to the program and learn to be a manager.

Too bad the RM doesn't work that way.  I could have skipped being a "butter bar"!   

The RM actually does work that way.  The Army places senior NCOs selected for Warrant Officer grade to CW2, and my mother was commissioned as a 1LT when she became a RN about 8 years ago or so.  I'm sure those aren't the only examples.

Right!  Advanced promotions for professions - had forgotten that.  Not sure I would equate those with what a Spaatz Cadet has done during their teen years,  but your point is taken.

[arajca]

After giving this some thought, I have some issues with 10B and 10C.

1. The 2 SDA's are not equal to SLS. Sorry folks. Especially with the new curriculum.
2. I can easily see accepting RCLS or COS as a equivalent to AFIADL 13.
3. One requirement of the CP Senior rating is attendance at TLC. This course provides a wealth of information on the back of the house for the cadet program, the part cadets - including most Spaatz cadets - don't get involved in.
4. Does this trump CAPR 35-5 which says the special promotions for former cadets "may" be granted at the commander's discretion? This item apparently makes the special promotion automatic.
5. Does the two break in service between cadethood and seniordom still matter?

[jimmydeanno]

1. The 2 SDA's are not equal to SLS. Sorry folks. Especially with the new curriculum.

There are 7 SDA's (Staff Duty Analysis) and 2 Staff Service Assignments.  The SDAs are reports the cadet writes about a particular staff position in the squadron, the Staff Service is when they actually participate in one of those positions, ie working as the Cadet Logistics Officer...

The one thing that I don't like is the fact that the cadets skip the "how to work with adults as an adult" portions of all these classes.  The relationship between seniors is different than that between seniors and cadets or cadet to cadet, as is their role.  All of the cadet training received won't cover that - which, IMO, is one of the most important lessons they need to learn.

Also, TLC credit would be bad.  Cadets know how to manage the cadet program as a cadet.  They don't know how to deal with parents (heck, I really don't know how...), etc.

Giving all this advanced credit, IMO, is a bad idea and I think would lead to underdeveloped leaders.

The Yeager...whatever.  When I transfered from C to S I took the Yeager test closed book without studying and passed.  The cadet curriculum more than covers the requirements for this.

[cnitas]

Is there a place that I can go to read the proposal on this?

[jb512]

Maybe you guys have some very different cadets than we do, but I think most people are blowing this way out of proportion.

You can't learn to relate to adults in a weekend class, that's something that comes with maturity and life.  If it's as easy as you say, let me know where that class is because I need to send some old senior members to it.  All this proposal is geared toward is keeping cadet officers from having to repeat things that are done, or relatively close to what they've done.  A cadet Colonel has a wealth of knowledge about cadet programs and the only transition that he/she should have to do is move from direct supervision over cadets to indirect.

[ZigZag911]

Maybe you guys have some very different cadets than we do, but I think most people are blowing this way out of proportion.

You can't learn to relate to adults in a weekend class, that's something that comes with maturity and life.  If it's as easy as you say, let me know where that class is because I need to send some old senior members to it.  All this proposal is geared toward is keeping cadet officers from having to repeat things that are done, or relatively close to what they've done.  A cadet Colonel has a wealth of knowledge about cadet programs and the only transition that he/she should have to do is move from direct supervision over cadets to indirect.

It has been demonstrated time and again that cadet officers transitioning to senior do better in the long run when they move completely away from the cadet program for a couple of years....best for their development as seniors, best for their squadrons.

Granted this is a generalization...there are rare exceptions....but on the whole, over many years, I've seen (and personally experienced) this to be so.

[jb512]

I know that it's hard for a cadet to make that transition. That would be like making a teacher out of a kid right out of high school without the college break.  All I'm agreeing with is giving the senior credit for the things he/she just spent years doing instead of doing the same thing over again.

[RplnXbrnt]

Maybe you guys have some very different cadets than we do, but I think most people are blowing this way out of proportion.

You can't learn to relate to adults in a weekend class, that's something that comes with maturity and life.  If it's as easy as you say, let me know where that class is because I need to send some old senior members to it.  All this proposal is geared toward is keeping cadet officers from having to repeat things that are done, or relatively close to what they've done.  A cadet Colonel has a wealth of knowledge about cadet programs and the only transition that he/she should have to do is move from direct supervision over cadets to indirect.

It has been demonstrated time and again that cadet officers transitioning to senior do better in the long run when they move completely away from the cadet program for a couple of years....best for their development as seniors, best for their squadrons.

Granted this is a generalization...there are rare exceptions....but on the whole, over many years, I've seen (and personally experienced) this to be so.

I'm glad you recognize this is a generalization. I would ask you, though, what may have contributed to those exceptions BEING exceptions? I.e., what contributed to the fact that these former cadets transitioned smoothly and easily? I honestly believe it has a lot to do with how those individuals are treated as cadets -- if you move them into mentoring and guidance roles as a cadet, the transition will be better. I started my "job" as Leadership Officer while still a cadet, utilizing the same sorts of techniques that my Officers used with me when I was a younger cadet.

If you do the work to prepare them, you won't have that problem.

[Ned]

It has been demonstrated time and again that cadet officers transitioning to senior do better in the long run when they move completely away from the cadet program for a couple of years....best for their development as seniors, best for their squadrons.

Granted this is a generalization...there are rare exceptions....but on the whole, over many years, I've seen (and personally experienced) this to be so.

Strong non-concur here.

Such a capricious policy is neither supported by regulation nor common experience.

By arbitrarily diverting experienced CP folks away from their area of expertise all you do is rob the corporation of the time and energy used to make these CP leaders.  Shooting yourself in the foot rarely helps retention, either.



It makes no more sense than forcing a cadet turning 21 who happens to be a GTL or MP to work to give up ES and work in AE for two years.  "Hey, we've found that works best. . . "



To the extent that you experience boundary or fraternization issues just suggests a leadership and supervision problem, not necessarliy a reason to create new policy.

Ned Lee
#356

[Eclipse]

OK, so I just walked through this with my CD.

Other than the Yeager and the CP rating(s), this doesn't change much - the biggest deal being an Eaker cadet basically gets a pass to Captain whether he shows up to a meeting or not - my guess is this will be how many of them attain it - meaning they miss the mark for the third diamond, go to college and pay their dues, and when college is over, come back as a senior member eligible for Captain - not the end of the world, but also probably an unintended consequence, senior do it to, so Kay-Sara-Sara.

One question which came up, though - you still need a CLC for Level III, and you can't (today) take the CLC until you've taken SLS, so will Eaker cadets get a waiver on this, or will this insure they still have to take SLS
before CLC?