Emergecncy Services vs. Cadet Programs

[flyguy06]

I think we are getting away from the Air Force and more into homeland security. What  happened to the days when we had a strong relationship withe USAF. I remember when I was a cadet and we went to encampments and used to watch these "Air Force Now" films. they were so motivating to me. You guys are right, for some reason a lot of cadets would rather go out to the woods then to fly airplanes. I never understood this. When I recruit and tell the name of my organization is Civl Air Patrol, they think flying. How is it that cadets could think ground team or homeland security. I think senior members emphasize ground stuff and de emphasize flying and air force careers.

Another thread on this site asks the question why CAP loosing pilots. I think CAP has a surge of non pilots and since they dont fly, they emphasize the non flying activities in CAP. Well, my squadorn is made up of mostly pilots. They are older pilots like in their 70's plus. We have some Tuskegee Airmen in our unit. And so all they do is talk flying, and Air Force. You wil hear very few conversations about ground pouding (you may hear it from me cause I am a grunt).

But I have always enjoyed flying and promoting flying careers. WIWAC, we had Academy liasion officers come to our squadron and talk about their school(it would mostly be Air Force and Navy. never west Point). Most of our cadets back then went on to military aviation flying jobs.

I dont think GES should be part of the cadet program. We are an aviation based organization, not a First respondr based organization. We should require O-flights and things related to aviation. If young people want to be First repsonders they have groups for that such as EMS Explorers.

[JayT]

I think all members should have a overview and training in ES, as well as CP and AE. Even if they don't use it they would have the GES, ROA, first aid, DR. training. Even in a urban environment there can be disasters where ES training would come into play.

But who says CAP would be called to response?

[Tubacap]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

Yes, I understand, but what if they are not interested in it? I cant make them come to a wweekend GT training event. And you say you require cadets to be at least GT3. Why that? Why not marshallers or msn Oservers or scanners? Why does it specifically have to be GT for cadets? Cadets can be commo folks. They can be aircrew if over 18 and they can be support staff.  If I told my members we were going to take a trip to the woods for the weekend, I may get two to show up

As commander, I would be okay with cadets pursuing those specialty ratings as well, or in place of GTM3.  GTM3 seemed to be the best place to start in our squadron.  Again, Cadets are required to be cadets first and foremost and really get a firm grasp on what is going on in the cadet program.  In fact we have placed a rule in our squadron that you must be C/Amn (national rule) as well as 14 to participate in the REDCAP part of ES.  At that point in time, with the Command and Line staff helping, I ensure that all cadets are progressing through their ranks at an adequate pace as per 52-16 as well as their own personal goals.

Goal setting is huge inside our squadron.  I am looking for people to set achieveable goals for themselves and their Subordinates (flame away at terminology if you please).  If we never have SMART (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely), you will never get anywhere and your program will suffer.  For the record, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just stating what has happened to me in my various associations in life.  One goal that our squadron has is that everyone be involved at a basic level in ES, once they have attained the ability to progress through the cadet ranks.

Incidentally, I can't imagine anyone saying the cadet program is "soft" if they are held to the honest truth and assessed accurately.  Although I'm sure there are some gung ho cadets out there....

[floridacyclist]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance. Not that I expect that to be the case the vast, vast majority of times, but the thought of training for that possibility does lend an air of seriousness and motivation to what some cadets may see as an otherwise fake game being played at meetings and on the drillpad. It lends an air of relevancy to the training that no amount of book learning or marching in circles can accomplish. At the same time, cadets should be progressing regularly in the standard CP before being allowed to participate in ES; this has proved to be a great motivating factor to several of our cadets.  Sure there are other ways to achieve the same results and those are totally valid too as long as they work, this is just one way that works for us.

We do have a goal of GES for everyone, not a requirement. Our reasoning is simple: When the big winds blow, you will not even be allowed to pass out ice and water without GES. If we want to sell ourselves as community-service-oriented, we have to be able to back up our words. Beyond GES, we have no requirements although we do encourage all to participate in at least one area of ES as "that is where the action is" and regardless of how we may feel about bling and action, this is a program for the kids cadets, and they often do care about those things. We enforce the proper wear of the ES patch, GTM badge, and Comm Patch and encourage cadets to earn these bits of bling for themselves through hard work, attention to detail, and perseverance....but only as long as they are progressing satisfactorily otherwise.

I don't see ES as interfering with the CP...in our case, it has enhanced it as our Hawk staff cadets' (we have 2 in our squadron, pending 3 after next Summer Hawk; one is the Cadet Commander, One is the Cadet Basic Training Flight Sgt/Color Guard Commander, and one is an Element Leader/Deputy Color Guard Commander) have really started pushing everyone to excel at promotions and participation in encampments (which we also treat as nearly mandatory) plus we now have our first Color Guard in several years.

[flyguy06]

As commander, I would be okay with cadets pursuing those specialty ratings as well, or in place of GTM3.  GTM3 seemed to be the best place to start in our squadron.  Again, Cadets are required to be cadets first and foremost and really get a firm grasp on what is going on in the cadet program.  In fact we have placed a rule in our squadron that you must be C/Amn (national rule) as well as 14 to participate in the REDCAP part of ES.  At that point in time, with the Command and Line staff helping, I ensure that all cadets are progressing through their ranks at an adequate pace as per 52-16 as well as their own personal goals.

I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is instead of GES why not make it a requirement to be a c/AMn before they can do an O-ride or take flying lessons The point I am making is why are we focusing on ES instead of flying. Since afterall we are an aviation organization not a first repsonder organization.

Goal setting is very important, so why nopt make it a goal to solo or get a private pilots license, or take the AFOQT while a senior in high school?

[flyguy06]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

[/quote]Not that I expect that to be the case the vast, vast majority of times, but the thought of training for that possibility does lend an air of seriousness and motivation to what some cadets may see as an otherwise fake game being played at meetings and on the drillpad. It lends an air of relevancy to the training that no amount of book learning [/quote]

Again, flight training accomplishes the same seriousness



[/quote]We do have a goal of GES for everyone, not a requirement. Our reasoning is simple: When the big winds blow, you will not even be allowed to pass out ice and water without GES.[/quote]

Not everyone is able to volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina and take a week off of work or out of school



[/quote]I don't see ES as interfering with the CP...in our case, it has enhanced it as our Hawk staff cadets' (we have 2 in our squadron, pending 3 after next Summer Hawk; one is the Cadet Commander, One is the Cadet Basic Training Flight Sgt/Color Guard Commander, and one is an Element Leader/Deputy Color Guard Commander) have really started pushing everyone to excel at promotions and participation in encampments (which we also treat as nearly mandatory) plus we now have our first Color Guard in several years.
[/quote]

It doesnt interfere, I think its just placed to much emphasis on. CAP is abn aviation organization (I am not speaking of AE) We should focus on aviation and the Air Force. I think becaue a lot of Senior Members arent aviaton or military focused they dont bring that to the cadets

[SJFedor]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

[stillamarine]

Not everyone is able to volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina and take a week off of work or out of school

You have to remember Gene is down here with us. We may not have to take a week off and volunteer to go to a Hurricane Katrina, they come to us.

[flyguy06]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

Which goes to my original point that we are loosing far too many pilots in CAP. We are being taken over by people who want to focus on ES. The pilots are leaving the organization.

And to your point about cadets wanting to go into the Infantry or be combat medics. Again, thats my whole point. What are Senior members selling to young people when they talk about CAP? I venture to guess they are selling Ground Team more than they are selling aviation. And why is that? Goes back to my first point that the members interested in aviation are leaving and are being replaced by first responders and ES folks and they in turn are selling the ES missions to youths and that the youths CAP is getting.

You see when I recruit for CAP, I sale the flying and I get young people who are crazy about flying or engineering careers. These young people would not care to do Ground Team things. It would be a turn off to them.

So, my whole point is I think the focus in CAP is changing due to the membership that we have.

[cnitas]

How do you keep the interest up when O-flight money dries up 6 months into the year?

I think that telling prospective cadets that they can join and fly, while technically true, is not true often enough for that to be THE major selling point.

We have an aircraft, we conduct flights for cadets until the money runs out, we have cadets go to our wing's annual solo school....but if that was all we had to go on, we would be in big trouble.

[flyguy06]

Flights just dont mean O-flights. A cadet can actully become a pilot inCAP> Infact, I heard of a story eventhough I never et the young man of a cadet that went al the way up to CFI in CAP. (well, maybe he did the complex stuff somewher else) but he was the only cadet CFI I ever heard of.

There are opportunities to fly inCAP and as far as money drying up. I have never relied on CAP to remburse me for anything. I mean the plane rents for $30 bucks an hour plus fuel. You cant beat that price on the outside unless you own your own airplane. I would gladly pay out of my pocket 80 bucks as opposed to renting a 172 for $110 at an FBO. Of course I wouldnt wantto do that too many times. So I see your point.

[jeders]

I get what your saying about focus changing because of who's doing the recruiting, but it sounds to me like you want us to go to the other pole. You want the ground pounders to leave because all we sell is the flying, and that's no good either. Plus, just because you sell the ES angle, doesn't meant you aren't also selling the ES flying angle. When I do recruiting I don't sell just one part of the program, because that's dumb, I sell the whole program and go a little more in depth on what is done locally. We don't have a plane at our squadron so selling the "become a cadet CFI" angle doesn't really work, though I still talk about flying.

As far as why selling only ground ES or only flying is dumb, you lose a huge chunk of potential cadets if you sell only one aspect to the exclusion of all others.

Also, I don't think that it's so easy to reduce our problem with losing pilots to simply say we're stressing ES over non-ES flying. I think it's got a lot more to do with limited budgets, not every squadron having an aircraft, an ambiguity as to what missions we can do, as well as what programs we're selling and who we're trying to recruit.

Additionally, we shouldn't stop selling ES-flying to cadets or seniors. Most of the seniors that I know that do flying join because they want to fly on missions, not necessarily because they want to do O-flights or teach cadets to fly.

So while what you say does have an impact on us losing pilots, it's not the only reason. And recruiting by only selling the flight angle isn't gonna help things either, we'll just lose a different group.

[flyguy06]

I agree. Maybe I am selling the flying too much, but just like the ES folks, flying is my passion.

Airplanes do not belong to squadrons. Any pilot in the wing can use any airplane in the wing. I hate it when I hear "Well, our squadrons airplane....." Your squadron does not own nor have an airplane assigned to it. Your unit may coincidentally meet at an airport that coincidentally also has a CAP aircraft assigned to that airport. But it is not the squadrons airplane. Myunit meets at a church. No where near an airport, so when I try to go flying, I get that whole "Talk to such and such squadron" and since such and such squadron doesnt know me, they hassle me about trying to fly a plane I have every right to fly. SO forgive me but that attitude that sqaudrons own airplanes or are assigned gets my goat.

I digress   You are correct. We should sell all parts of CAP and in particular what the local unit is doing.

[jeders]

Airplanes do not belong to squadrons. Any pilot in the wing can use any airplane in the wing. I hate it when I hear "Well, our squadrons airplane....." Your squadron does not own nor have an airplane assigned to it. Your unit may coincidentally meet at an airport that coincidentally also has a CAP aircraft assigned to that airport. But it is not the squadrons airplane. Myunit meets at a church. No where near an airport, so when I try to go flying, I get that whole "Talk to such and such squadron" and since such and such squadron doesnt know me, they hassle me about trying to fly a plane I have every right to fly. SO forgive me but that attitude that sqaudrons own airplanes or are assigned gets my goat.

I agree with this and apologize for miscommunication. I simply continue to use that phrasing as it is simplest to talk about. However, it is certainly much easier to get an airplane when it's in the same city as you and not, as in our case, 100 miles away or more.

I agree. Maybe I am selling the flying too much, but just like the ES folks, flying is my passion.

And my passion happens to be ground ES. Why, because I'm not a pilot so I can't be a MP and I'm not in a squadron that has an airplane (ignore the phrasing) so I can't use my MO rating very much. However, we must all remember that not everyone is interested in just what we are passionate about, and believe me I have to remind myself of this every time I talk to prospective cadets and seniors.

[Major Lord]

Question: Whats the difference between Cadet Programs and Emergency Services?

Answer: Cadet Programs have adult leadership....

Major Lord

[Chappy]

I am a senior member that does all three missions.  And I encourage all potential chaplains to be involved in all three missions. 
The cadet program has as one of the requirements for promotion - a unit activity.  Many times our unit activity involves ES training.  Another cadet may be involved in the color guard or honor guard training. 

I am suprised to find that cadets stay interested in the CP alone.  There have to be other activities that peak their interest that keep them coming to the unit meeting week after week.  Not every cadet interested in CAP wants to fly an airplane.  It takes a lot more folks on the ground to support that aircraft in the air - and most of the flying time is during missions or training for ES.  An ICP has a lot more folks - and cadets needed to be trained so a MP can go on a sortie.  Same thing for the AF.

At one encampment we had a AF Military Chaplain and his Chaplain's Assistant talk about AF careers.  This opened up a big door for many cadets who were religious in nature but also looked towards a military career.

The Civil Air Patrol is capable of handling all three missions...and if your squadron doesn't do ES - find one that does to include your cadets in their training.

[Stonewall]

I've always said I was a 51% CP guy and a 49% ES guy.  So my loyalty and interests are primarily with CP closely followed by ES.

[flyguy06]

I am a senior member that does all three missions.  And I encourage all potential chaplains to be involved in all three missions. 
The cadet program has as one of the requirements for promotion - a unit activity.  Many times our unit activity involves ES training.  Another cadet may be involved in the color guard or honor guard training. 

I am suprised to find that cadets stay interested in the CP alone.  There have to be other activities that peak their interest that keep them coming to the unit meeting week after week.  Not every cadet interested in CAP wants to fly an airplane.  It takes a lot more folks on the ground to support that aircraft in the air - and most of the flying time is during missions or training for ES.  An ICP has a lot more folks - and cadets needed to be trained so a MP can go on a sortie.  Same thing for the AF.

At one encampment we had a AF Military Chaplain and his Chaplain's Assistant talk about AF careers.  This opened up a big door for many cadets who were religious in nature but also looked towards a military career.

The Civil Air Patrol is capable of handling all three missions...and if your squadron doesn't do ES - find one that does to include your cadets in their training.

Well, I think it all depends on where and who you recruit. I volunteer with another organization that teaches youths how to fly. That is wher eI recruit for CAP. So, they all have one common interest.....flying.

[flyguy06]

I know what you mean about not being able to participate in ES. Contrary to what you think of me by my posts, I actually do like ES and I would like to be involved, but as was said earlier because we dont have good access to an aircraft and because I am the only ES qualified person in my Squadron, I am not on anybody's call up list. I also put in to work in CN. Iputin last Feb and havent heard anything yet

[Trouble]

I see ES as a leadership training activity...a real-world hands-on training ground where someone's life may literally hang in the balance.

Flight traing does the samething

True, but A) flight training is a bit more expensive then working towards your GTM3. Purchasing all your required gear for GTM3 would probably cost the same as about ~1-2 hours of dual. B) not all cadets, even in CAP, want to fly. I've met many cadets that want to go on to be infantry, combat medics, as well as just about any other MOS you can think of, and C) it's hard for some cadets to even find SM CFI's that will train them. I had to work my butt off and push really hard to get flight training when I was a cadet. And, if you're not at a unit with an aircraft, odds are you probably don't have many, if any, pilots and/or CFIs. So you gotta go cross town to the other unit to start making relations with the CFIs there, get in their good graces, and hope that they'll volunteer their time to take you under their wing. It's a tough program to get involved in.

We're an aviation centered organization, yes, but it's not the only thing we have to use. And I agree wholeheartedly with Capt Floyd, ES in the field is a great leadership lab for the CP. Take all the things they've learned about leadership in the classroom and by marching around the parking lot or drill hall, and put it to action in a real world scenario, looking for an ELT, a missing aircraft, a missing person, whatever it may be. They have to work together, yet use their chain of command to accomplish the goal. You can't ask for a better practicum.

Could not have said it better myself. Except to add that some folks need to read their CAP history text again.

Yes, we are an aviation oriented organization, one who's ES & Civil Defense mission (what we now for political correctness sake call Homeland Security) is not a new thing that came along in the last 6 years, it is our Original Congressionally chartered mission (read reason for existing) as of Dec. 1st 1941.  The Cadet Program grew out of a need to bring younger folks into CAP to help man and staff the CD mission, serve their communities, and train for military service, as older folks got sent off to War overseas.   Aside for CAP efforts to pre-flight train Army Air Corps Cadets and help bolster the number of available pilots for the war effort, the CP  was meant to feed CAP's need for Senior Members to preform Wartime CD & ES missions.   So you see The Cadet Program was never meant to be an end unto itself nor should it be.  If you really want to fulfill the goal of the CAP cadet program then once you are 18 yrs of age, go and sign up for Military or Public Health Service or stay in CAP become a Senior Member and support CAP's Missions. Just please, do not get your Milestone award and decide that now its time to cash in on your CAP Cadet Program only time.

Also it would help to  remember that until very recently the Cadet Program was not an Official Mission of CAP according to Congress or the USAF, while internal/external AE and ES were and have been since 1948.