Another topic on saluting...OH NO!

[jimmydeanno]

So, imagine you are writing a new CAPP 151    Currently there is confusion on the definition of a "military style" uniform.

How would you describe a military style uniform?  I've had a few ideas but I think this one makes the most sense:

"A military style uniform is considered any uniform in which grade insignia is displayed."

So my question to you guys would be...

Would you agree with this statement.  This would include the version of the blazer with the grade insignia on the nametag.  I think it would be appropriate because if you are going to display what grade you are you are setting yourself up to play the saluting game.

I know the blazer combo doesn't look "military style" but I think it is a good blanket clause that would help include any future uniform combinations.

Comments? Ideas? Objections?

[Dragoon]

Here's two ideas:

1.  in 39-1, make it clear which uniforms are "military style' and which aren't.  That way, every time we have a new uniform, the change to 39-1 will upate the list.

or

2.  Failing that, I'd define "military style" as any USAF uniform worn by CAP, plus any CAP Corporate uniform that displays grade and has mandatory headgear.

This would eliminate the blazer, golf shirt and white and grays.  It would also currently eliminate CAP field and service, but truthfully, those uniforms SHOULD have mandatory headgear.

[MIKE]

Would you agree with this statement.  This would include the version of the blazer with the grade insignia on the nametag.  I think it would be appropriate because if you are going to display what grade you are you are setting yourself up to play the saluting game.

I wouldn't... It may not be the politically correct or make everybody feel good about themselves answer, but I believe that military style should mean Air Force style.

[Fifinella]

Re including blazer with nametag: IMO that's not practical.  At a saluting distance, the insignia is probably not large enough to be easily recognizable, thereby making it very difficult to know whom to salute.  (Does that person outrank me or not?)  Instead of saluting, we'd all be squinting at each other, trying to make out the rank. 

[jimmydeanno]

Re including blazer with nametag: IMO that's not practical.  At a saluting distance, the insignia is probably not large enough to be easily recognizable, thereby making it very difficult to know whom to salute.  (Does that person outrank me or not?)  Instead of saluting, we'd all be squinting at each other, trying to make out the rank. 

But there isn't a prescribed "saluting distance."  It is upon recognition, so if you don't recognize the insignia until you are 4 feet away, so be it.  The same argument could be made for the glare on the plastic cased insignia, but that's not really what I'm going for.  I'm talking about the appropriateness of it.  Is it appropriate for someone wearing grade insignia to salute? 

My point being that if someone is wearing a uniform in which they are displaying their grade insignia, the intent is to recognize that persons grade.  As such, someone would salute that person.  Wouldn't it be appropriate for that person to salute back, even if they don't have a hat on or it is "civilian looking?"  Of course with the [new] pamphlet not being regulatory it wouldn't say.

"Members will salute while wearing military style uniforms."

but rather...

"It is appropriate to salute when wearing any uniform that displays grade insignia."

EDIT:
Let me throw in the "draft paragraph" talking about C&C:

...For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations that display grade insignia).  Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

[capchiro]

I believe that a junior officer may salute a senior officer, even if the senior officer is out of uniform, if the junior officer recognizes him as such.  If so, isn't it proper for the senior officer to return the salute?  If not shouldn't the senior officer at least respond with a greeting?  Such as good afternoon Sergeant??  Or should he return the salute??

[jimmydeanno]

Yes, you are correct, but the senior officer out of uniform would acknowledge the salute with a verbal greeting.

However, the senior officer in the AF would either be wearing a military uniform of civilian clothes.  Not civilian clothes with military insignia on it...hence the confusion that we/I'm trying to clear up.  So our "unique" situation in CAP, what do we want as the "standard?"

[Eclipse]

I would remove any ambiguity regarding saluting and require a salute:

1) Cadet initiates any time a cadet encounters a senior member.

2) Subordinate members initiate when encountering a commander at their unit, group, or wing level.
No excuses you don't know who they are - find out.

3) Lower-grade officer salutes when member is in a CAP uniform and can discern from the uniform, >ANY< uniform, what the grade is (and butter bars are instructed they might just as well salute everyone the first year or so).

4) No saluting on a flight line or other designated "no salute" zones as indicated for safety.

5) Whether or not you have a hat on is irrelevant to the issue.

6) No >required< salutes in civilian dress.

This ends the ambiguity and forces everyone to actually think about where they are, who they are, and who they are with, and as clear as this is written leaves no room for loopholes.

[Dragoon]

I would remove any ambiguity regarding saluting and require a salute:

1) Cadet initiates any time a cadet encounters a senior member.

2) Subordinate members initiate when encountering a commander at their unit, group, or wing level.
No excuses you don't know who they are - find out.

3) Lower-grade officer salutes when member is in a CAP uniform and can discern from the uniform, >ANY< uniform, what the grade is (and butter bars are instructed they might just as well salute everyone the first year or so).

4) No saluting on a flight line or other designated "no salute" zones as indicated for safety.

5) Whether or not you have a hat on is irrelevant to the issue.

6) No >required< salutes in civilian dress.

This ends the ambiguity and forces everyone to actually think about where they are, who they are, and who they are with, and as clear as this is written leaves no room for loopholes.

The reason I brought up the hat thing is that, with the one exception formal reporting, you don't salute without a hat on.

The reason for this is simple - all military uniforms have hats.  Hats are required outside.  Hence all saluting occurs with hats on.

Normally, designated "no salute" zones are also "no hat zones"

So....culturally there's a bit of a link between salutes and headgear.   If your hat is off, odds are no salute is required.

Now, enter CAP with "uniforms" that don't have hats.  That's where things get a bit iffy. 

As an aside, I think saluting in a blazer looks silly.

Personally, I say we take a page from CGAUX and eliminate saluting between senior members.  Since our grade does not actually denote a superior/subordinate relationship, there's really no reason to use a custom that is based on such a relationship.

[jimmydeanno]

I can understand the need or desire to set up a matrix for people to follow regarding saluting, but is that really what the intent of the C&C pamphlet should be?

Instead of saying, "In situation X, person Y salutes person Z" what if a different approach were taken.  What if it were designed for a new member to pick up and actually want to skim through and with just a skimming, they could come out with a general knowledge of the intent and execution of CAP C&C?

The current 151 reads like a regulation is too in-depth and is confusing.  Because of this, it fails to indoctrinate our new members into the "odd" customs and courtesies that we perform. 

So instead we...

1: Motivate cadets and senior mmembers to display a spirit of professionalism that is rooted in respect and guides their interactions with one another.

2: Provide easy to understand, authoritative guidance on how to render basic AF C&C.

Geared to...

1: New senior members who have limited military background, especially those who want to lead cadets.
2: Experienced CAP members looking for authoritative guidance on C&C related topics.
3: Cadets (it is assumed that cadets will consult the cadet textbooks first).

So we focus on the fundamentals and the most common scenarios in CAP.  I think people would be more apt to read the short guide instead of a manual.  For those who enjoy reading regulations, they can purchase the Air Force Officer's Guide.

So we end up with something like this:

INTRODUCTION

All military customs and courtesies are rooted in basic politeness and respect. To the newcomer, they seem strange and confusing at first. People are often embarrassed the first time they try to salute. But with a just a little bit of study, practice, and mentoring comes understanding and confidence.

Cadets will be held to a high standard in how well they observe Air Force-style customs and courtesies. By nature of the Cadet Program's training goals, Air Force traditions are a large part of cadet life.  For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).  Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

What follows is a brief tutorial in how to render Air Force-style customs and courtesies properly and proudly. This guide focuses on the fundamentals. For more information on the finer points of this subject, see Air Force Manual 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies. 

RANK AND SPECIAL SITUATIONS IN CAP

In the military tradition, unit commanders will usually be the highest ranking individuals in a unit. In CAP, that is quite often not the case, and it can make for some confusing scenarios when it comes to custom and courtesies.

For example, in CAP, a captain may command a squadron that includes majors and colonels as its members. An aircraft may be commanded by a captain, and crewed by two majors. Or perhaps a cadet NCO is leading a drill team that includes her cadet commander, a cadet major. Situations like these are common in CAP.

Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute. And looking at the matter from the other side, the higher ranking officer should respect the junior officer's position.

As discussed in Part 1 of this guide, customs and courtesies are not marks of personal superiority or inferiority. Rather, they are symbols of our respect for one another. Customs and courtesies should be extended freely and cheerfully, regardless of how unusual a situation may seem.


FOOTNOTE
Connoisseurs of the finer points of military customs and courtesies will notice that this guide takes some modest liberties in explaining what can be a very technical subject.
This guide values simplicity. It aims merely to introduce CAP members to basic military customs and courtesies. Therefore, the guide sacrifices hyper-accuracy to focus on the fundamentals.

THE SALUTE

BASIC RULE
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.

FINER POINTS

Salutes are normally exchanged only outdoors. Indoors, salute officers only when formally reporting (ie: when called forward to receive an award).

The junior person initiates the salute a fair distance from the senior person such that the senior has time to return the salute.

Offer a greeting such as, "Good morning, ma'am," when exchanging salutes.

When in formation, do not salute unless commanded to present arms. The commander salutes for the unit if an officer approaches.

On some installations, such as Maxwell AFB, home of CAP National Headquarters, it is common to see military officers from friendly nations. It is customary for CAP members to salute these international officers as a sign of goodwill.

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing. For example, a uniformed cadet salutes their squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In such instances, the commander would verbally acknowledge the salute but not return it.

When in doubt, salute. Anyone may render a salute at any time if they believe one is warranted.

[Brad]

Ok here's my take, and it'll probably go along with what everybody else has said to an extent.

A.)  Military-style uniform = Air Force-style uniform and TPU with coat. The TPU without coat is called an aviator shirt of all things. For me, the first thing that pops into my head is an airline pilot...and when's the last time you saw them exchanging salutes? Also the blue uniforms count as military uniforms, if nothing else then for the headgear.

B.) I've read this plenty of times actually in Officer Guides and seen it done, but if you are in uniform and recognize a senior officer in civilian clothes....salute. YOU are in uniform, so YOU salute. The senior will acknowledge the salute as appropriate.


Personally I don't see what the confusion is. The pamphlets and regulations mention that when in a military-style uniform you salute all seniors either active duty or CAP, the POTUS, and all Congressional Medal of Honor winners by tradition. Where's the confusion?

[jimmydeanno]

It is about applying one general "theme" to one action.  What makes a "military style uniform" military style?  Is it the ribbons? grade insignia? the way it's cut?  Is Military Style only combinations that are worn by members of the military (AF Style).  Does wearing a hat with it make it any more military than another uniform? 

Look at this:

BLUES:                      WHITE/GRAYS:                     TPU                          BLAZER (UPGRADE TO WHITE/GRAYS)

RIBBONS                    RIBBONS                             RIBBONS                   ONE MINI-MEDAL
GRADE INSIGNIA          GRADE INSIGNIA                  GRADE INSIGNIA         GRADE INSIGNIA
NAME TAG                  NAME TAG                          NAME TAG                 NAME TAG

So besides the grooming/weight standards, those uniforms are "functionally equivelent."

So the intent was to have a uniform that members could particpate in CAP to extent that their "Blues wearing" counterparts could. 

Re: Brad

So using that logic, a new member should salute in the TPU service coat, but not when wearing any other combination of the TPU?  That's not confusing to new members...

The intent is to avoid having to constantly decide if it is customary or appropriate to salute in particular uniforms.  I know that "when in doubt salute," but when explaining CAP C&C why not keep it simple?

Regardless, the AF style uniforms should follow AF protocol just out of expectation with interaction of military members.  On the CAP distinctive uniforms, we have free reign.  Is anyone really going to get bent out of shape if someone in the Blazer combo salutes when reporting, or if they salute when a cadet salutes them?  IMO, new members feel awkward enough participating in C&C if they have no experience with the military, so why create more awkwardness and confusion?

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk or knock down others ideas, just trying to get a better perspective on peoples real thoughts.

Aren't we all members of "The Official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force?"  or are some of us only part members because we wear a different uniform from the guy next to us?  Why aren't the "rules" universal?

So far we've got:

Military Style =
1) Any uniform with grade insignia
2) Any uniform combo with a hat
3) Only AF style combos
4) AF Style & only TPU w/ service coat
5) Removing ambiguity by defining every possible situation on how/when to salute
6) Uniforms with grade insignia big enough to see

[ZigZag911]

A salute is a greeting.

Juniors should salute seniors on recognition in appropriate circumstances.

It's not about having to salute, but rather sharing the privilege!

Let's quit dividing CAP members by what uniform they wear....military courtesy and ordinary daily civility is for everyone!

[RiverAux]

If I were to be in charge of clarifying things, I would require salutes for all uniforms with rank insignia except for the blazer (the tiny little insignia emblem on the name badge is a little too inconspicuous and everything else about the "uniform" is civilian).   

[SarDragon]

No hat - no salute required, unless specified otherwise (e.g. reporting indoors).

No rank - no salute required.

Specific guidance not to salute - no salute necessary.

How much more simple can it get? That's pretty much how TheRealMilitary™ does things.

[RiverAux]

Yes, but the real military doesn't have a uniform with insignia on it where they don't wear a hat.  We have to make some adjustments (personally, I would require the hat and solve the problem that way). 

[brasda91]

Personally, I say we take a page from CGAUX and eliminate saluting between senior members.  Since our grade does not actually denote a superior/subordinate relationship, there's really no reason to use a custom that is based on such a relationship.

I beg to differ.  Our grade is based on the customs of the military, which denote superior/subordinate relationships.

[brasda91]

I would remove any ambiguity regarding saluting and require a salute:

1) Cadet initiates any time a cadet encounters a senior member.

2) Subordinate members initiate when encountering a commander at their unit, group, or wing level.
No excuses you don't know who they are - find out.

3) Lower-grade officer salutes when member is in a CAP uniform and can discern from the uniform, >ANY< uniform, what the grade is.

4) No saluting on a flight line or other designated "no salute" zones as indicated for safety.

5) Whether or not you have a hat on is irrelevant to the issue.

6) No >required< salutes in civilian dress.

This ends the ambiguity and forces everyone to actually think about where they are, who they are, and who they are with, and as clear as this is written leaves no room for loopholes.

Exactly. 

[brasda91]

No rank - no salute required.


How much more simple can it get? That's pretty much how TheRealMilitary™ does things.

Really??  So the privates in basic training don't have to salute the officers??

They did when I was a private...

[SJFedor]

No rank - no salute required.


How much more simple can it get? That's pretty much how TheRealMilitary™ does things.

Really??  So the privates in basic training don't have to salute the officers??

They did when I was a private...

I think what he means is that if there's no grade showing, you not be required to render a salute. Not if you have no rank, you don't salute anyone.

Besides, Private is a rank. Even those E-1s w/ no grade insignia.  But you knew that already.