CAP and the Battle of the Atlantic

[ZigZag911]

  Private flying was prohibited very early on in the war and an exception was given for CAP missions. Maybe there was another exception for CGAux, but I doubt it.   

My point is that, CG Temporary Reserve or not, such flights could well have been viewed as CG missions rather than instances of private flying.

[Skyray]

  Private flying was prohibited very early on in the war and an exception was given for CAP missions. Maybe there was another exception for CGAux, but I doubt it.   

My point is that, CG Temporary Reserve or not, such flights could well have been viewed as CG missions rather than instances of private flying.

I am sure that it has been fine tuned many times over the ensuing years, but today's auxiliary uses boats and airplanes that are "offered for use". Once accepted, they become Coast Guard assets.  I seem to remember from reading about Chapman that one of the first of these acceptances was Commodore Vanderbilt's yacht.  We were not as litigious back then, so the answer would have been, this is not private flying.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Skyray and Zig:

Both of you are correct.  The issue that was uppermost in the minds of the generals and admirals (Including Arnold, when he had his conversation with Gill Robb Wilson) was not American vs. Military lawsuits, but the reaction of Germans should they capture an American in civilian clothes acting as a combatant.

The Germans did not maintain a prison camp in a pleasant tropical paradise where the prisoners would be fed socially-appropriate meals and handed bibles literally with kid gloves.  The Germans usually shot or hanged partisans on the spot.

The formation of CAP as an "Auxiliary" of the Army Air Corps is another example of Arnold's "Outside-the-box" genius.  He was the most forward-thinking of all of the 5-star generals at the time, and exactly the kind of leader that the Air Force needed at the time.  He was as smart and committed as Mitchell, but easier to get along with. 

[RiverAux]

Kach,I'm away from home until next weekend and don't have access to my materials.  You said earlier that the arming didn't take place until 1943, now you're saying 1942.  Could you check your materials on that.  If it was May, 1942, there very well probably were un-uniformed pilots flying since as I mentioned in an earlier post CAP had not decided on any uniform until about 6 months after we were formed.  But, if it was in 1943 about the time we switched to the Army we had definetely been wearing uniforms for quite some time by then. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Again, I didn't make myself clear.

The DECISION by Hap Arnold to arm CAP planes was made in May, 1942.  That decision was not immediately executed.  There were manufacturers representatives called in to design bomb racks for the small planes that would be consistent with the weight-and-balance restrictions.  Then these bomb racks had to be manufactured and installed.  This took time.

From the decision to arm CAP, however, sprang a contemporaneous decision to place CAP under the AAF, and to issue uniforms to CAP members. 

I am suggesting that once the decision was made to arm CAP and transfer CAP to the AAF, that the process of issuing uniforms would happen.  Uniforms are easier to design than bomb racks (unless you read OUR uniform threads!)  So that in late April, 1943, when CAP was transfered to the Army, all of the members were in proper uniform for the ceremony. 

Which may well mark the last time that all CAP members were in the same uniform, ever!

After the ceremony, they loaded their bombs, and went hunting!

[RiverAux]

You still haven't explained how your timeline squares with Flying Minute Men which has us in uniform well before we were transfered to the Army.  And don't forget, we were using military ranks and titles from day 1. 

By the way, I've seen a picture of CAP members in formation at one of the coastal patrol bases and there were just about as many uniform combinations being worn then as you might see at a CAP meeting today. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I was only joking about the uniform combinations.  We've always been hard animals to tame.  During WWII CAP pilots didn't like the eagle pilot wings, since they looked a little like the Luftwaffe's Nazi party badge.  The CAP guys soldered a CAP seal from a set of wings onto an Air Corps observer badge, and created a new CAP insignia!

My hypothesis covers uniforms from the May-June 1942 time frame onward.  As of May, 1942, Arnold was concerned about CAP members being captured in civilian clothes, and voiced that concern to Gill Robb Wilson.  Wilson assured Arnold that, uniforms or no, CAP members were ready to fight.  As we know, a method was found to create an "Auxiliary" to the Army Air Corps, and the pilots did fly in modified Air Corps uniforms, so the issue was resolved.

Prior to May, 1942, when Arnold considered arming the CAP planes, I have no idea what they wore.  Obviously, if Arnold was concerned about CAP pilots flying as combatants in civilian clothes, then SOMEBODY was out there in civvies.

So, my question stands... is there evidence of some kind of uniform between December, 1941 and May, 1942?

[RiverAux]

Well, first clear something up -- Were CAP planes armed in April/May 1942 or April/May 1943 as you said earlier(about the time we were switched to the Army)? 

I've previously posted the information that we didn't have a uniform in CAP for about our first six months (which would have been about May, 1942).  So, no argument there.  But you had been saying that we didn't receive uniforms until we were armed and transfered to the Army.  I know the Army transfer didn't happen until 1943, so the argument that we weren't uniformed until we were part of the Army doesn't hold water.

As I said, I don't have my research materials to check on the arming date. 

[aveighter]

Excuse me!  Possible silly question here!

Why in the name of Honor, Glory is this such a matter of such extreme angst

Holy submarines BatAux, give it a rest.  We have a tremendous history thats pretty well documented, stop trying to minimize everything.  Be proud, its ok!

Want something to obsess over?  How about this...If we don't start doubling defense spending (at a minimum) the young Lt's. aveighter will be flying the same 15 year old platforms at the end of their careers as they are now and the Navy may well be sub 300 ships. Now there is something worthy of obsession.

Keeps me up at night.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I frankly don't know.  This discussion started off as a discussion as to whether or not CAP combat patrols were decisive in the battle against U-Boats along the coasts.  I contend that the timeline of CAP armed patrols, together with the tempo of operations, forced the withdrawal of U-Boats from the coasts. 

Somehow, it degenerated into a discussion of when CAP dressed like soldiers.

[flyguync]

A very good book about CAP and the Atlantic, and gives a history on most of the CP Bases is "From Maine to Mexico".

[RRLE]

I've previously posted the information that we didn't have a uniform in CAP for about our first six months

Have you considered the possibility that the first CAP uniform may have been a Civil Defense uniform?

I submit for your consideration the 1941 Manaul A Handbook for Messengers from the US Office of Civilian Defense. The Manual itself only talks about an armband but look at the uniform shown on the inside front cover. Also see the graphics on pages 32, 33 and 37. The link is http://www.idaillinois.org/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/isl3&CISOPTR=15242&REC=12. Similar manuals are still extant for Air Raid Wardens http://www.idaillinois.org/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/isl3&CISOPTR=10981&REC=8 and a few of the other Citizens Defense Corps groups. Go to http://www.idaillinois.org/ and type 'civil defense' in the search field to find the rest of them.

The Messengers and Air Raid Wardens were just some of the services under the Citizens Defense Corps (see page 29) of the OCD. CAP prior to moving under Army command was also part of the OCD and may have worn the same uniform. And that could be where the current confusion is stemming from.

[JohnKachenmeister]

My mother was an Air Raid Warden back during the war, and never mentioned any uniform.  Everything I've ever seen about Civil Defense during World War II involves only a helmet and armband as identification.  Also, in the document that you linked to, the "Manual for Drill" pages, starting on page 31, appears to show a person in a civilian suit with helmet, armband, and bloused boots.

That being said, I remember in the 60's that CD volunteers wore a modified Army uniform.  I don't know when that practice started.

[West_Coast_Guy]

While I would not want to face off with a U-Boat with an 88 AA gun armed with two small bombs at 70 knots, the U-Boat's mission was not to shoot down the CAP's little Gnat of a plane, but to sink ships.

Speaking of gnat-sized airplanes, I always thought it was cool that an old biplane was essentially responsible for the destruction of the Bismarck. It certainly demonstrated that small planes like CAP's could not be ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Swordfish was way bigger than most of the CAP planes.

[West_Coast_Guy]

That's certainly true in terms of payload, but the wingspan was only about ten feet more than a cub. It's also true that the Bismarck was a lot larger than any submarine. Since the sinking of the Bismarck occurred in 1941, it could have been on the minds of the sub captains who were said, earlier in the thread, to be very afraid of airplanes.

Wikipedia's article on CAP has some discussion of its anti-submarine activity, and links to other articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Air_Patrol

[SarDragon]

The Swordfish was way bigger than most of the CAP planes.

I'd say so:
C-182
Length: 29 ft 0 in (8.8 m)
Wingspan: 36 ft 0 in (11.0 m)
Height: 9 ft 4 in (2.8 m)
Wing area: 174 ft² (16.2 m²)
Empty weight: 1,970 lb (894 kg)

Fairey Swordfish
Length: 35 ft 8 in (10.87 m)
Wingspan: 45 ft 6 in (13.87 m)
Height: 12 ft 4 in (3.76 m)
Wing area: 542 ft² (50.4 m²) (it's a biplane; makes a huge difference)
Empty weight: 4,195 lb (1,900 kg)

[Steve Silverwood]

History is fun.  I can't figure out why kids hate it in school!

It takes a good teacher to make it fun for the kids.  I hated history ("social studies") until 10th grade, when a very good history teacher brought the subject alive for me.  After that, I couldn't get enough of it, and still can't.  (Long-time member of the History Book Club, ravenous patron of the local libraries, and so on.)

//Steve//

[RiverAux]

Okay, I'm back home and have access to my historical materials. 

Flying Minute Men definetely implies that CAP planes began to be armed shortly after the FL incident in May, 1942.  So, Kach and I are on the same page there.

However, in a local newspaper article that I have from mid-April 1942 it was reported that CAP uniforms were now available for purchase ($10 -- approximately $100 in today's dollars) by flying personnel and that the men's uniform was the same as the Army uniform except for "insignia" and that the women were to wear a "semi-military design" (the early TPU?).  So, if CAP members in my little backwater were wearing uniforms in April, 1942, I'm pretty sure that members on Coastal Patrol were in uniform in that time period as well.  So, I think we can put the nail in the coffin of the idea that this was some sort of gradual process that wasn't completed until we were transferred to the Army in the spring of 1943. 

Also, regarding the idea that we weren't armed until we were transferred to the Army.  Flying Minute Men p. 38 talks about 21 attacks made from a FL base and strongly implies that these were made in 1942.  This particular reference isn't conclusive, but overall I very much doubt they waited an entire year to arm our planes and that our sightings/attacks/sinkings were not done in a 3-4 month period near the end of the coastal patrol period since elsewhere in Flying Minute Men it says that there were actually very few sightings in 1943.

[RRLE]

An article in the April 1996, Vol. 79, No. 4   issue of Air Force magazine http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0496valor.asp gives a different perspective on why the U-boats dove on sighting any aircraft including a CAP plane. It wasn't the CAP plane per se but what was sure to follow:

German captains soon learned that the appearance of a light plane meant that heavy help was on the way and that a crash dive was in order. As time passed, the combination of CAP and military might drove the submarines further and further from shore with a drastic reduction in US and Allied shipping losses.

None of which diminishes the valor of the CAP pilots, some of which is recounted later in the article.