Are Seniors starting to lack imagination?

[RogueLeader]

In another topic, a very unrealistic idea was tossed out in order to stimulate some imaginative thinking.  To be sure, the topic had nothing related specifically towards CAP- other than us in the larger context of the US population.  There was a bit of debate, which fell to uniforms.  Then, right before it was locked, a member called that the whole thing was "stupid" and not even worth thinking of.

This lead me to ask that: Are Senior Members CAP Officers begging to show a lack of imagination?

Really, if we never continually imagined potential threats to our nation- whether likely or not- how could we implement new policies that keep us safe.  Remember, no one thought of using our own planes against us, or that the Japs never believed that the Home Islands could be bombed.  All it took was a few people to come up with brilliant plans, and look what it did.  Terrorists destroyed WTC, and a sub captain led to the Japs being bombed by Doolittle.

Another question: If we can not imagine what is possible, how can we ever get there?

[mikeylikey]

I do not believe CAP Officers are lacking in imagination, we have a huge pool of very bright and imaginative people to draw from.  Our Organization is too political in terms of Corporate Vs. AF AUX and individualistic goals ahead of everything else. 
   I seriously doubt those individuals running the volunteer side of the house at Region and National levels are thinking "what great ideas have my fellow volunteers thought of, and how can we best implement them".  They more than not think "how much higher can I move myself up the chain", or "where is the next corporate donation coming from. 

The whole organization needs.....well........reorganized.  There is no reason the general membership should not be electing it's leaders.  Political appointees (like we have now) do not best represent the CAP membership population.  Why does the National Commander get to appoint anyone than his or her immediate staff?  Should the Wings pick who the Wing Commander should be?  Absolutely.  Should the wings in each region pick the Region Commander?  Yes. 

If we reorganize in that manner, our voices would be heard far better than they are currently.  If you are not a friend of the Wing Commander, do you really think he or she will allow your ideas move past his or her desk?  Heck no.

I think there are tons of great ideas here just at CAPTALK.  In fact, I and a few others have actually been contacted by NHQ employees and volunteers after reading what we have written.  This forum is one of the only places where our voices can be heard and recognized by the leadership in general. 

There are no comment boxes at my Wing HQ.....is there a comment box in YOUR Wing HQ?  Most likely NO!

RogueLeader.....what do you want me to imagine in terms of possibilities?  Give me something to start pondering and I will give you some fresh ideas.  Off the top of my head, lets talk about military base augmentation.  Don't like that one, perhaps we can start discussing getting CAP members into FEMA training courses on a free cost base.  I could go on and on, but I have way too many. 

That is what is great about this forum, there are many different discussions to jump into.  When was the last time we (as a general membership) had to chance to all sit together and brain-storm (other than at a national conference, which by the way they refused to broadcast the town hall meeting on the internet, HUGE mistake on their part). 

The stagnation is sitting at the top of our organization, not at the middle and bottom depths.

[biZarre]

This is a very good question...  and after thinking about a response for a time, perhaps the best I can think of is - Not really, but the CAP does not generally foster a lot of imagination.  

New ideas and change can be very unnerving, especially when done with out gaining support of the membership.   We can see some imagination turned to reality in the recent flurry of uniform creations, and as we see, the membership response has at best, been mixed.  

Thinking of and responding to potential threats is something that CAP may not be in the best position for...  People who get paid to do that kind of thing would better be able to explain what role CAP could play.  Perhaps the best way CAP can remain vigilant is to simply prepare for the things we know, do them well, so that when the time calls, we can improvise as necessary then.

But, as was asked, if we can not imagine what is possible, how can we get there?  I would ask, what do you think CAP will look like in 2020?   What roles does CAP fill then?

[mikeylikey]

But, as was asked, if we can not imagine what is possible, how can we get there?  I would ask, what do you think CAP will look like in 2020?   What roles does CAP fill then?

I would love to see CAP as a full-time AF Auxiliary.  With it's Officers receiving Auxiliary Officer Commissions from the AF.  HUGE change to current laws, but reading what the President proposed a while back (military reserves, but not true reservists) would be one way for CAP to go.  Almost like the type of thing the UK has going on with it's programs similar to CAP.

[NIN]

I don't think we're beginning to show a lack of imagination.

I think its always been there.

Like when I was a cadet.

[Major Carrales]

But, as was asked, if we can not imagine what is possible, how can we get there?  I would ask, what do you think CAP will look like in 2020?   What roles does CAP fill then?

I would love to see CAP as a full-time AF Auxiliary.  With it's Officers receiving Auxiliary Officer Commissions from the AF.  HUGE change to current laws, but reading what the President proposed a while back (military reserves, but not true reservists) would be one way for CAP to go.  Almost like the type of thing the UK has going on with it's programs similar to CAP.

Careful, someone might think that idea is "STUPID."  Then get the thread locked.

[jimmydeanno]

It's not so much that we're "lacking imagination," but our personality types.  CAP by its very nature attracts people who like boundaries, regulations and rules.  So I think it is in the very nature of most senior members in the first place.  The rules are the rules and that's what we do.

This lends itself to an evironment of compliance and complacancy, which in some ways is a good thing.  We just need to balance our organization with people who aren't of the "SJ" arena.

[mikeylikey]

But, as was asked, if we can not imagine what is possible, how can we get there?  I would ask, what do you think CAP will look like in 2020?   What roles does CAP fill then?

I would love to see CAP as a full-time AF Auxiliary.  With it's Officers receiving Auxiliary Officer Commissions from the AF.  HUGE change to current laws, but reading what the President proposed a while back (military reserves, but not true reservists) would be one way for CAP to go.  Almost like the type of thing the UK has going on with it's programs similar to CAP.

Careful, someone might think that idea is "STUPID."  Then get the thread locked.

Just waiting for MIKE or Pylon to come on and say "there is another thread that discusses that, move on"   

[O-Rex]

CAP members are as imaginative as any other group; I've seen some interesting things on CAPTALK.

Unfortunately, beauracracies, by their very nature, are not usually quick to move forward with innovative ideas..

[dwb]

Most people lack imagination.  It's why not everyone becomes an astronaut, or works at Pixar, or invents Facebook.

[SDF_Specialist]

I don't think it's a lack of imagination. To me, it's more like a lack of motivation. Of course this does not apply to all officer. There are a lot of opportunities out there, and it seems that there are very few people who want to take advantage of them, but then they want to complain that nothing ever happens in the organization.

[Falshrmjgr]

Interesting.  Auxiliary Commissions?  I can think of a couple of suitable comparisons.

Firstly, there is the IMA precedent.  Individual Mobilization Augmentees, are Reservists who, rather than belonging to "Active" Reserve/National Guard Units, hold positions which only exist during Mobilization.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/ar-perscom.htm

They drill for retirement points.

Secondly, the special class of Commissions for the Merchant Marine, US Naval Reserve. 

The United States Merchant Marine is the fleet of the nation's civilian-owned merchant ships- operated by either the government or the private sector- that are engaged in commerce or transportation of goods and services in and out of the navigable waters of the United States. The merchant marine is responsible for transporting cargo and passengers during peace time. In time of war, the merchant marine[1] is an auxiliary to the Navy, and can be called upon to deliver troops and supplies for the military.

Hmmmmm sounds familiar.  It seems to me that a number of problems could be resolved by Offering Qualified CAP Members something like a concurrent commission as "2LT, USAFR-CAP."

In which case, when activated, CAP Members in this category would be members of the US Armed Forces, subject to the UCMJ, and available worldwide for DOD Directed missions.  Conversely, acceptance of this commission would in no way preclude participation in CAP in a non-UCMJ position, nor promotion.

Further, this would require that members would hold TWO ranks.  One, their normal CAP, and secondly their rank in the USAF Reserve.

Thinking this through a bit further,  I think we could devise some checkpoints for accession into the Air Force, and Minimum Requirements.

I mean, while not widely known, there are some excellent precedents for such a move.  See also Uniformed members of the NOAA and Public Health Service.

As a former Officer (US Army) I understand that there are a number of issues that hinder proper integration with the Military, among which is perceived rank disparity.  Frankly, I don't that as insurmountable.  By having a dual rank structure, we could assure the BIG Air Force, that our members when acting in their capacity as Reserve Officers have the training and have met the requirements that they would expect of a person holding the rank that they have.

Further, when acting in their activated capacity as members of the Air Force Reserve, they wouldn't even wear "CAP" uniforms.

This would open up opportunities to have CAP members attend actual Air Force (and other) schools, serve liaison functions, fill manpower shortages, and frankly bridge the gap between the two services.

Anyhow, food for thought.

[MIKE]

^ Sounds kinda sorta similar to what the Royal Air Force does for their Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve (Training) Officers who lead their Air Cadet units...  IIRC these officers hold the substantive rank of Flying Officer (1st Lt) for contingency purposes.

[lordmonar]

Problem 1.

You would immediately loose all Active Duty Members.

You cannot be both AD and a reservist at the same time.  Many member (such as me) are AD members.....and enlisted to boot.  There is no way that I could be both an AD MSgt and a USAFR-CAP 2nd Lt.....talk about muddying the waters for UCMJ purposes.

Problem 2.

You would loose a large percentage of our members for being ineligible for USAFR-CAP commissions due to age, disability, citizenship, weight standards, education standards, etc.

Problem 3.

If you can be activated.....then you can be activated.  Many of our members cannot afford to be called up and put on the AF dime.  They would loose money.  This hardship exists right now with traditional reservists.  Even with job protection, we would find it hard to recruit quality individuals because they can't commit to the possibility of being called up.

Problem 4 (or more or less non-problem).

Why?  We do a pretty good job as it is with our current status.  Changing our status may open some doors....but we could find ways of opening those doors with out changing our status.  There is no bar to any military training just because we are "civilians".  Contractors go through military training all the time.  We could even go to formal PME courses if CAP can figure a way to pay for them (they are not cheap!).

As for lack of imagination.....I think we have a lot of imagination...but as someone pointed out...we have no motivation to brainstorm solutions to problems that don't really exist.  If you through out a hypothetical situation that has no bearing to CAP on a CAP forum....you are going to get a lot of people who don't care.  If you don't control the focus of your group it WILL fade off onto tangents that interest the participants (such as uniforms).  Basic leadership skills you use to control a discussion group in face to face situations still apply on on-line forums.

It is not a lack of imagination that gets these thread drifts and lock down...but lack of leadership on the part of the discussion facilitator.

[Viper QA]

But, as was asked, if we can not imagine what is possible, how can we get there?  I would ask, what do you think CAP will look like in 2020?   What roles does CAP fill then?

I would love to see CAP as a full-time AF Auxiliary.  With it's Officers receiving Auxiliary Officer Commissions from the AF.  HUGE change to current laws, but reading what the President proposed a while back (military reserves, but not true reservists) would be one way for CAP to go.  Almost like the type of thing the UK has going on with it's programs similar to CAP.

Careful, someone might think that idea is "STUPID."  Then get the thread locked.

Let it go!

This thread is far more of an exercise in thought & at least has the potential to generate some meaningful discussion.

RogueLeader has brought up some good points that will hopefully generate some well thoughtout responses. I might have asked the question different, but I understand where he is going with it.

I'm all for CAP members exchanging meaningful ideas, but I'd prefer that they have some basis in reality.

Your thread was just STUPID & a total waste of time.

I'm surprised that you did not start a thread the next day asking CAP members what they would do if their town was invaded & occupied by aliens.

Return the Red Dawn DVD to the video store & let it go!

[ZigZag911]

Am I correct inn envisioning these "Auxiliary commissions in USAF Reserve" would be an option, rather than required?

In other words, qualified individuals could apply for/be invited to apply for such a commission.

Those not qualified (for whatever reason, which could include already holding AD/Reserve status in RM) would not be selected, nor, one expects, would they apply.

In other words, some officers could pursue dual status, but no one would be required to do so.

That ought to address most of the objections raised.

Now, what exactly our officers bring to the table that would interest USAF is another issue, one I'd like to so discussed.

As for the initial question of the thread, sometimes it indeed seems that the fancy the costume jewelry on the epaulets, the more limited the powers of creativity!

Sometimes....but then you get a Gen Courter or a Col, Greenhut, two extremely innovative individuals....so in the end, I guess it comes down to the individual's personality and the working environment.

I think it is fair to say that the working environment in CAP can be reluctant at times to accept new ideas.

[O-Rex]

I'm surprised that you did not start a thread the next day asking CAP members what they would do if their town was invaded & occupied by aliens.

Return the Red Dawn DVD to the video store & let it go!

Umm. . . . . . there is a recent thread called "Would you burn your Uniform?"

Also need to return "Mars Attacks!" because the soldier with the M-14 at the beginning of the movie reminds me of ALOT of CAP members I know.

Don't get offended: the purpose of blogs is to vent, rant & rave, and as an outlet for some Walter Mitty-like fantasies.

Oh yeah, folks gotta return Independence Day too: "All our pilots are dead: can you fly a 172? great! here's an F-16, go get 'em, tiger!"   That certainly fired the imagination of a segment of our CAP population.

Blogs: you gotta enjoy the good ideas, and filter-out the fluff, or at least laugh at it.....

Fantasies are harmless: you just gotta know where to compartmentalize them.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Major Carrales]

Am I correct inn envisioning these "Auxiliary commissions in USAF Reserve" would be an option, rather than required?

In other words, qualified individuals could apply for/be invited to apply for such a commission.

Those not qualified (for whatever reason, which could include already holding AD/Reserve status in RM) would not be selected, nor, one expects, would they apply.

In other words, some officers could pursue dual status, but no one would be required to do so.

That ought to address most of the objections raised.

Now, what exactly our officers bring to the table that would interest USAF is another issue, one I'd like to so discussed.

As for the initial question of the thread, sometimes it indeed seems that the fancy the costume jewelry on the epaulets, the more limited the powers of creativity!

Sometimes....but then you get a Gen Courter or a Col, Greenhut, two extremely innovative individuals....so in the end, I guess it comes down to the individual's personality and the working environment.

I think it is fair to say that the working environment in CAP can be reluctant at times to accept new ideas.

Why not just join the USAFR? As I have seen of the majority of CAP officers in my area, CAP is more for those who are civilians and want to serve in their communities.

The "One CAP" idea has been challenged here on this forum this week, I am beginning to think that we are more LOCAL than we would like to think.

ALL CAP is LOCAL?  Maybe.

[ZigZag911]

Actually, Major Carrales, I tend to agree with you....someone who wants to be in AF Reserve should join!

However, I wanted to point out possible answers to some problems raised about the Aux. commission concept.

I don't think those objections are insurmountable.

However, I am also not yet convinced there is a need for such a program in CAP.

[Major Carrales]

Actually, Major Carrales, I tend to agree with you....someone who wants to be in AF Reserve should join!

However, I wanted to point out possible answers to some problems raised about the Aux. commission concept.

I don't think those objections are insurmountable.

However, I am also not yet convinced there is a need for such a program in CAP.

Zig,

I meant no disrespect.  I, a while back, envisioned an "inner corps" of CAP Officers that would do CD,Homeland Security and the other sensative parts of CAP.  These would apply for Higher Security Clearances and the like.

The idea was dismissed as "playing soldier," so I dropped it.

Still, one might better offer their service to the USAFR than to CAP, that occasion.  CAP utilizes elements of the citizenry that would otherwise not have a chance.

[ZigZag911]

No offense taken, Sparky....just wanted to clarify my position.

For what it's worth, you clearly have both vision and a creative approach to your responsibilities...don't let the aggravation expressed by one or two individuals stifle your imagination....yeah, some of these discussions get into the upper stratosphere, but at least it causes us to think!

[Pylon]

What does being given a piece of paper called "a commission" do for us that we couldn't do with our current status as civilians who volunteer for Civil Air Patrol?

[ZigZag911]

More to the point, what does said 'commission' do for the Air Force....they take a real 'what have you done for us lately/will you do for us now' attitude when passing out commissions, and rightly so.

I'm especially puzzled, in view of the massive cutbacks among junior officers in the past year or two, why USAF would even want to consider another class of reservists, with the benefits and expenses attendant -- even if just insurance coverage & per diem.

[RogueLeader]

I'm all for CAP members exchanging meaningful ideas, but I'd prefer that they have some basis in reality.

Your thread was just STUPID & a total waste of time.

I'm surprised that you did not start a thread the next day asking CAP members what they would do if their town was invaded & occupied by aliens.

Return the Red Dawn DVD to the video store & let it go!

Didn't have any basis in reality?  That is what what officials thought about Billy Mitchel, US being attacked, etc, etc.  look what happened!  What about SETI? Are they not based in reality?  The likelihood may seem to be so very small that most do not care, but that is not what the thread was about.  So why don't you let it go.

[O-Rex]

I meant no disrespect.  I, a while back, envisioned an "inner corps" of CAP Officers that would do CD,Homeland Security and the other sensative parts of CAP.  These would apply for Higher Security Clearances and the like.

That's actually happening, though not on a grand scale.

[Falshrmjgr]

Problem 1.

You would immediately loose all Active Duty Members.

You cannot be both AD and a reservist at the same time.  Many member (such as me) are AD members.....and enlisted to boot.  There is no way that I could be both an AD MSgt and a USAFR-CAP 2nd Lt.....talk about muddying the waters for UCMJ purposes.

Problem 2.

You would loose a large percentage of our members for being ineligible for USAFR-CAP commissions due to age, disability, citizenship, weight standards, education standards, etc.

Problem 3.

If you can be activated.....then you can be activated.  Many of our members cannot afford to be called up and put on the AF dime.  They would loose money.  This hardship exists right now with traditional reservists.  Even with job protection, we would find it hard to recruit quality individuals because they can't commit to the possibility of being called up.

Problem 4 (or more or less non-problem).

Why?  We do a pretty good job as it is with our current status.  Changing our status may open some doors....but we could find ways of opening those doors with out changing our status.  There is no bar to any military training just because we are "civilians".  Contractors go through military training all the time.  We could even go to formal PME courses if CAP can figure a way to pay for them (they are not cheap!).

As for lack of imagination.....I think we have a lot of imagination...but as someone pointed out...we have no motivation to brainstorm solutions to problems that don't really exist.  If you through out a hypothetical situation that has no bearing to CAP on a CAP forum....you are going to get a lot of people who don't care.  If you don't control the focus of your group it WILL fade off onto tangents that interest the participants (such as uniforms).  Basic leadership skills you use to control a discussion group in face to face situations still apply on on-line forums.

It is not a lack of imagination that gets these thread drifts and lock down...but lack of leadership on the part of the discussion facilitator.

In point of fact, I happen to know several Active Duty Soldiers who hold Reserve Commissions.  They are quite smug about the fact that they will retire as E-9's but get payed 0-4 Retirement pay.

Secondly, the value to the Air Force is simple.  The Big Air Force loses lots of qualified officers every year.  You create a venue where their skills can be used, AND they can continue their careers

As far as why not join the Reserves?  Well, for some Active Drill time is not consistent with their lives, and the IRR does not provide the venue they are looking for to stay somewhat active.

As long as the commission is OPTIONAL, there is no impact to those members who are not interested.  Members who DID NOT elect to receive commissions cannot be activated.

As far as age, weight, etc.   That is a question that is dealt with via regulation, not law.  Regulations have, and do change based upon the needs of the country and service.  There is NO reason that a member who is of mandatory retirement age, could not contribute his services.

Take a look here:  http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/07/2792594 for a similar view.

[hatentx]

Not to call you out I just dont see how being both an officer and enlisted is possible.  I am not saying that it isnt possible there could be some loop hole but in the UCMJ aspect that would make a ton of issues.   The enlisted answers to his O-3 for work untill he is pissed off at him them pulls rank cause his higest rank earned is more than the officer that is lawfully in command of him.  Two seperate chain of commands?  If it were possible that would how ever bring a ton of interesting possibilities into the situation.  As the the Activating CAP into there own Reserve you would then have a Reseve branch full of officers.  If the mission was only home land security who would fix the aircraft or do the SAR missions?  The officers?  If it came to the point were CAP Reserve Forces were activated they would now be an armed service when CAP is not armed at all.  Does this not now place the Cadets into harms way?  I think there should be more options for CAP personel but federalising them or making a new reserve branch isnt the answer.  Schools and otehr active duty training would be great for the program i agree.  What a motovation would it be to be told as a Civilian or as an Active Duty AirForce personel that hey we got slots for you to go to Airborne school or what ever school you would like to insert.  The issue is first funding.  Although not knowing the Regulations and the Bylaws completly Im sure that CAP members could go through military school pending funding.  So if the individual wing got enough money to send its members to such and such training or school then that would be great but again school and training and Active duty benifits are costly.  Being a nation at war only makes these things even more less likly to happen.  The answer could be in makeing CAP leadership better equiped to train its volunteers.  From the little I have seen it isnt bad for what it is given to work with.  CAP is a great organization to help the community and to assist the military in the Homeland mission.  Sadly most people have never heard of CAP and there i believe is the first problem.  Why do somemany kids joing boy/girl scouts? Becasue everybody know who they are and where to find them.  Im not suggesting going and selling cookies (although funny to think about) but to incress the recruitment effort bring more light on to the best kept secret of the airforce!  Once this is done and people know that hey I this is an option numbers will incress funds will incress as well and the public (and government) will begin to notice that this Volunteer force and help to augment some of the strains on the active duty forces and gain a much more importance in mission.  I remimber in my AFJROTC unit the reson why we had money and we so well off was the fact the everybody know us.  We recived donations and were ask all of the time to help with such events.  I remimber one e year for both highschools in out town had play off football games and the police force was to thin to direct traffic and maintain all the duties they were able to do with both school and regular duties.  Who did they call.  My unit and with minimum police force and mostly JROTC Cadet directing parking and trafic they we just help the community in a huge way.  If CAP can prove them self to be a necissary force funding and number and an over all stucture change will happen.  Great things will begain to change into the force that many of the member would like to see and have.  This is just my opinion and I am not an active member yet.  This is just my Ideas of where i see it. 


The last point I wanted to bring up it the part of the last thread and the burning of the uniform.  It is a lagitament saftey concern.  Remimber that just becasue you are a big old guy and can talk on the bad guys with your 22s and shot guns doesnt mean that the Cadet at your wings are going to be able to if this extremly unlikly even were to happen.  As Senior Memeber I would think your first responsibility is for the Saftey of the Cadets that are at your wings.  Although that senario is almost obserd to think about about what about something not so unreal.  A small radical groud decides to target militray personel and they are going to hit the weakest tagets they can.  Well a CAP unit at a Community Ceter would seem easy.  Although that still seems far streatched it could be the time that they are leaving to go home while in a unifrom.  I recall after 9-11 JROTC Cadets were not allowed to wear uniforms for about 2 months just a a saftey precaution so incase military were being targeted High School Kids were not the ones taking the hits.  I know this was long but in the idea of the last thread saftey or the CAP indivuals was what i got out of it and the 12 year old Cadets were the ones i was thinking about being caught with a uniform in thier closet and being killed or toucheres for infromation in that Red Dawn type situation.

[Chaplaindon]

I think the idea of some sort of --O*P*T*I*O*N*A*L-- IMA-type status for CAP officers who possess needed skills, useful to the USAF and/or its reserve components is a great idea, especially with all the rhetoric about our military being "stretched thin" by deployments.

CAP members, possessing critical/needed skills and the educational, physical fitness, etc., background could apply for one of these billets. Acceptance would not be automatic, nor up to the CAP hierarchy. The USAF (et al) would choose.

I think this would be an awesome means by which CAP medical personnel (e.g. physicians, veterinarians, dentists, PAs registered nurses, radiology technicians, EMTs and/or paramedics, etc.), CAP chaplains (the USAF has an acute need for chaplains), CAP legal officers and so forth, could CHOOSE to use their professional skills in greater service to the country.

The USAF would process their application(S) and commission/enlist each as an IMA (or perhaps "auxiliary") officer/NCO/airman. Obviously not all of the billets would be for officers (e.g. active duty Radiology Techs, EMTs, and Paramedics in the USAF are enlisted grade personnel).

Most of their service would remain at the CAP unit level unless the USAF needed them. Then they'd be deployable ... whereever.

But is there a need for such a change in the USAF?

Let's talk about chaplains for an example. As I recall reading once, the USAF has/had (I read this a few years ago) slightly less than 700 chaplains (I believe that was active duty and not inclusive of the reserve components, but I am not sure of that). That number is approximately the same as CAP has.  I know that CAP chaplains are already augmenting the active duty USAF chaplains at various installations (e.g. Luke AFB, for one). If CAP chaplains are already helping out the USAF (not to forget ARNG units and other military branches), there is a demonstrated need.

By creating a special category of officer, an additional cadre of endorsed chaplains could serve more widely (and longer, because they would be eligible for salary) in support of the USAF and/or other DoD needs (e.g. JTF-Katrina, another 9/11).

That's just chaplains, an even greater population of professional personnel (medical, legal, who knows who else) would be available as well.

This would be a voluntary option. No CAP officer would be forced to be USAF-commissioned/enlisted (nor would every CAP officer even QUALIFY) but it would be an option to even better serve the US.

I see this as a win-win for the CAP, the military, and our country. First the USAF becomes more flexible with additional personnel "banked" for unexpected needs. Two, CAP becomes more valuable to the Air Staff as a source of assets to strengthen the USAF and its reserve components at times of acute need.

Together that helps make the US safer.

[dougsnow]

This sounds like the Corporal-Captain episode in M*A*S*H

But, an interesting proposition none the less.

[Falshrmjgr]

I think the idea of some sort of --O*P*T*I*O*N*A*L-- IMA-type status for CAP officers who possess needed skills, useful to the USAF and/or its reserve components is a great idea, especially with all the rhetoric about our military being "stretched thin" by deployments.

CAP members, possessing critical/needed skills and the educational, physical fitness, etc., background could apply for one of these billets. Acceptance would not be automatic, nor up to the CAP hierarchy. The USAF (et al) would choose.

I think this would be an awesome means by which CAP medical personnel (e.g. physicians, veterinarians, dentists, PAs registered nurses, radiology technicians, EMTs and/or paramedics, etc.), CAP chaplains (the USAF has an acute need for chaplains), CAP legal officers and so forth, could CHOOSE to use their professional skills in greater service to the country.

The USAF would process their application(S) and commission/enlist each as an IMA (or perhaps "auxiliary") officer/NCO/airman. Obviously not all of the billets would be for officers (e.g. active duty Radiology Techs, EMTs, and Paramedics in the USAF are enlisted grade personnel).

Most of their service would remain at the CAP unit level unless the USAF needed them. Then they'd be deployable ... whereever.

But is there a need for such a change in the USAF?

Let's talk about chaplains for an example. As I recall reading once, the USAF has/had (I read this a few years ago) slightly less than 700 chaplains (I believe that was active duty and not inclusive of the reserve components, but I am not sure of that). That number is approximately the same as CAP has.  I know that CAP chaplains are already augmenting the active duty USAF chaplains at various installations (e.g. Luke AFB, for one). If CAP chaplains are already helping out the USAF (not to forget ARNG units and other military branches), there is a demonstrated need.

By creating a special category of officer, an additional cadre of endorsed chaplains could serve more widely (and longer, because they would be eligible for salary) in support of the USAF and/or other DoD needs (e.g. JTF-Katrina, another 9/11).

That's just chaplains, an even greater population of professional personnel (medical, legal, who knows who else) would be available as well.

This would be a voluntary option. No CAP officer would be forced to be USAF-commissioned/enlisted (nor would every CAP officer even QUALIFY) but it would be an option to even better serve the US.

I see this as a win-win for the CAP, the military, and our country. First the USAF becomes more flexible with additional personnel "banked" for unexpected needs. Two, CAP becomes more valuable to the Air Staff as a source of assets to strengthen the USAF and its reserve components at times of acute need.

Together that helps make the US safer.

In point of fact, no change is necessary currently for Chaplains to be used to augment Air Force Chaplaincy needs.  Title 10 states the following:

"(b)  Use of Civil Air Patrol Chaplains.— The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under conditions that the Secretary determines appropriate."

That is a matter of policy, and not of law.  That door is open.

To address the concerns above posited by hatentx, I would like to point out that that there is a long history of Active/Reserve Rank disparity.

What actually matters is what capacity you are serving as.  Holding a Reserve commission does NOT entitle one to whip out his ID card and say "poof!  I'm now a Major!".  However, it does allow one to perform certain duties that would normally be prohibited.

My first experience with this was in 1993 at Fort Carson.  I was re-enlisting and my Brigade Retention NCO (E8, E9 selectee) was re-enlisting me.  While he could not suddenly go order some Captain around.  (He was se3rving in his capacity as an Active Duty E8), what he COULD do was administer my Oath.  When my paper work was signed, everywhere he singed, he signed it as:

Joe Smith
MSG, USA
Brigade Retention NCO

Except for the Oath, which he signed:

Joe Smith
MAJ, AG, USAR

I was fascinated by this, so we talked about it at length.  Yes there was a downside.  He needed to fulfill all his professional military education commensurate with his reserve grade.  In practice what this meant was that he would take leave every year to go perform his job as an IMA Maj for points.  And he needed a certain number of points every year.

As time went on, I served in the Reserves.  My Company Sergeant Major (SF Company) was in his civilian job a Judge.  While serving in his capacity as a member of the Active Reserves, he held the rank of E9, but he also held a commission as a JAG officer.

Generally speaking, it is pretty rare.  Typically what you see are Officers who fail to get promoted, and are separated; but who desire to retire.  What happens is that they are placed in the IRR for purposes of their commissions, but then enlist to finish out the time needed to retire.  Once they retire, they get payed at the highest rank held.  Not a bad deal actually.

Another pretty typical scenario, (and I know a guy who did this) is ROTC Graduates who do not get selected for Active Duty.  While most of these officers go on to serve in the NGR, a few have a burning desire to serve on Active Duty.  So depending on their Statutory Obligation (Scholarship/Non-Scholarship) some Request transfer into the IRR to enable them to enlist.  Typically they are enlisted at the rank of E5.

[RiverAux]

Basically what the chaplain is suggesting is equivalent to the Coast Guard's authority to accept people as "Temporary Reservists".  This function was used quite heavily during WWII.  They had a wide range of options including totally unpaid volunteer, paid part time, and paid full-time positions.  The Commandant of the Coast Guard still has statutory authority to do this, but hasn't exercised it since WWII.  As discussed in the several "augmentation" threads, the AF and CG both have authority to use their auxiliaries for almost everything right now, so the TR status isn't really needed. 

[Major Carrales]

A CAP where people could be "deployed" overseas? 

Careful, you are getting into the FICTIONAL REALM that bothers some people.

To echo words written here...
I'm surprised that y'all have not started a thread asking CAP members what they would do if their town was invaded & occupied by aliens.

We've all been asked for CAP members to exchane meaningful ideas, but that they have some basis in reality.

Some might classify this as "STUPID & a total waste of time." 

[RiverAux]

A CAP where people could be "deployed" overseas? 

It has happened a few times in the CG Aux.  Recently a member of the Coast Guard artist program went to CG units in the Persian Gulf AS A MEMBER OF THE CG AUX to paint pictures.  There have been several cases where CG Aux members have been used as interpreters on overseas missions. Certainly this is extremely rare.   

I don't see any widespread need in the AF for such help from CAP, but in certain specialized areas having the option available might be helpful.

[Chaplaindon]

"In point of fact, no change is necessary currently for Chaplains to be used to augment Air Force Chaplaincy needs.  Title 10 states the following:

"(b)  Use of Civil Air Patrol Chaplains.— The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under conditions that the Secretary determines appropriate."

That is a matter of policy, and not of law.  That door is open."

Not quite ...

There is a statement regarding "domestic non-combat ministries" quoted in CAPR 265-1 (E), sect. A, para. 2b which limits CAP chaplains usefulness to the SECAF to domestic functions. Hence MAJ Carrales' voiced concern about " A CAP where people could be "deployed" overseas" is moot.

By shifting personnel --who meet/exceed USAF/AFRES/ANG qualifications-- into an actual military slot, you enable two things prohibited at present by DoD and CAP regulation:

1.  That personnel could be sent anywhere. While I don't cherish the thought of combat duty, it could happen. More likely, however, would be a military hospital assignment in Germany or elsewhere replacing another chaplain deployed further "downrange." I know that Chaplain Robert Hicks (formerly of NHQ, he ran the chaplain program for CAP at MAFB) who was/is an AL ANG Chaplain, Lt Col, was deployed more-or-less voluntarily to Germany to serve a 3 month tour at Landstuhl Medical Center. So a CAP chaplain, now an IMA (whatever they chose to call the imagined position) could perform that job no longer constrained to the US.

2.  CAP members are constrained from receiving compensation (beyond, perhaps a per diem or expense reimbursement) for their duties. Few members could spend 3 months away from their jobs and salaries. By making us Reservists, our jobs would be secure under Federal law and we could be paid as Ch Hicks was while in Germany.

Again, anyone who volunteers for this cross-over role would be subject to long-term deployment anywhere in the world, just like other reservists. No one would/could be forced to accept one of these billets either. It would be a conscious, deliberate choice.

[DogCollar]

This is a very interesting threat and one that I've enjoyed reading.  I think that society in general has had a serious lack of imagination for the last 20 years or more.  We teach children in school how to take tests, but do we teach people critical thinking and problem solving?  The answer in my neck of the woods is no! 

Maybe it's not really a lack of imagination, but a lack of ability to apply imagined solutions to very real issues? 

I think it's time to reassess the purpose of the organization.  Let's not take on any addtional missions until we discover what it is that is truly at the heart of CAP!  In other words, if CAP were disbanded today...what would be so lost by the nation that they would have to reinvent CAP?  After answering that question, what is the most imaginative and effective ways to achieve positive results in accomplishing the mission/missions?  I guess what I am really saying is that to harness imagination, there must first be a comprehensible vision and mission for the organization.  My observation is that the vision is lacking and a lot of people are very protective of what their idea of mission is. 

I don't know it this makes any sense to anyone else?  If anyone can say it better (probably EVERYone can say it better) have at it!

[Falshrmjgr]

I think it's time to reassess the purpose of the organization.  Let's not take on any addtional missions until we discover what it is that is truly at the heart of CAP!  In other words, if CAP were disbanded today...what would be so lost by the nation that they would have to reinvent CAP?

Hmmm, that is one way of thinking about it.  Another way would be to say, "What services COULD CAP bring to benefit the nation, and how are they being underutilized?"

Granted, I am pretty new to the forum here, and I apologize if I ruffle some feathers (Old paratrooper type here), but what I have seen so far is a bifurcation in the ethos of the organization, that seem to orbit around a simple premise:  Specifically, a perception that something is "LOST" by leaning forward in the saddle and trying to make CAP more relevant in the 21st Century.

A lot of what I read around here seems to revolve around 3 issues:

1)  Uniforms.  What changes are next, and how do they impact the public's impression of CAP?  (Or perhaps, how we view ourselves?)

2)  Auxiliary Status.  What does it mean?  Are we diminished by being a part-time versus full-time auxiliary?  Some want us to integrate more with the DoD, others are afraid of it.

3)  Command Structure.  Too political?  Nepotism and "ole boy" cronyism?

So let me ask this: 

Does the nation face a threat?
Do CAP members have skills and equipment for that fight?
Do we have the courage to attack some sacred cows, and re-imagine ourselves as force multipliers?

I mean look folks, do you think our forefathers who chased subs in Cessna's would have had ANY problem with these questions?  They would have rolled up their sleeves and got to the nation's work.  That's what they would have done.

The answer in my mind is a simple one:  Adapt and overcome.  CAP should NOT be a novelty, some leftover of days of yore with its best days behind it.  We have a moral obligation to ourselves, our cadets, and our Nation to try and fulfill our potential.

I remember when I was cadet.  We were viewed as an annoyance by the seniors in our composite squadron.  O flights were rare, and I remember looking at those T-34's with abject lust every time I saw them.  But I belonged to a "Flying Club" Composite Squadron whose seniors were either just interested in zooming around, or getting some perverse pleasure in demanding unearned respect from cadets.  (Thank God that squadron is lost to the mists of time.)  It left a pretty sour taste in my mouth, and it took 20-some years for me to decide to become involved again.  But what I remember with crystal clarity was the POTENTIAL I saw, and those few members (both cadet and senior) who wanted to make it something valuable, something worthwhile, something noble.

In my squadron today, I am impressed continuously with the professionalism, maturity, and dedication that most bring.  Conversely, I am disturbed by the perception that nothing can be done to make things better.  When it takes FOUR Days for CAP to be called into a Search, and then have a find in 4 hours, I shudder to think what COULD have happened in those 4 days.

Sure, we can blame the lead agency for sitting on their hands.  But we need to blame ourselves too.  Do they trust us?  Do they know us?  Do they respect us?  We can whinge and wring our hands about "no press" and "inaccurate press", but at the end of the day, you want that Sheriff (or whoever) to feel when he picks up that phone, that he's calling in the Big Guns, the professionals; not "Jeez, I need help, so I'll give these amateur Air Force wanna-bes a try because I've run out of options."

How do you get there?  You stop acting like a club, and start ACTING like the military organization you want to LOOK like.  You enforce standards, and invite folks who aren't on board to either take a job they are suited for, or try another organization.  CAP ain't a right, its a privilege, and one that should be earned.

There is a difference between being FORCED to take part in Hazardous Duties, and being ALLOWED to partake.  Risk in inherent in life.  We live and breathe a culture of safety, but when we allow "Safety" to become a craven excuse for cowardice, we might as well lock the doors, disconnect the lights, and say thanks for the memories.

We have MANY, MANY brave members here.  We have MANY, MANY dedicated members here.  Flying in piss poor weather, over rough terrain, risking their lives to save lives; THAT is what CAP's core is.  Ground Team Grunts humping up and down hills, sucking wind to get to someone.  THAT is CAP.  Spending our nights and weekends developing young minds in young Americans.  THAT is what CAP is.  Figuring out HOW, not thinking up excuses why we shouldn't or can't; THAT IS CAP.

Thus endeth the rant.   If I've offended, you might want to ask yourself why.


All the Way, Let's Go!

[Viper QA]

I'm all for CAP members exchanging meaningful ideas, but I'd prefer that they have some basis in reality.

Your thread was just STUPID & a total waste of time.

I'm surprised that you did not start a thread the next day asking CAP members what they would do if their town was invaded & occupied by aliens.

Return the Red Dawn DVD to the video store & let it go!

Didn't have any basis in reality?  That is what what officials thought about Billy Mitchel, US being attacked, etc, etc.  look what happened!  What about SETI? Are they not based in reality?  The likelihood may seem to be so very small that most do not care, but that is not what the thread was about.  So why don't you let it go.

I see your drinking the same Kool Aid!

When Mexico invades & occupies the south-western U.S. I'll quit calling that STUPID thread STUPID.

A lot of things are possible & have a basis in reality, but that thread's scenario did not.

Anyway, I was not addressing you.

[pixelwonk]

Actually, it'd be stupid to keep harping on that.

Really.it.would.

[Ricochet13]

Maybe it's not really a lack of imagination, but a lack of ability to apply imagined solutions to very real issues? 

I think it's time to reassess the purpose of the organization.  Let's not take on any additional missions until we discover what it is that is truly at the heart of CAP!  In other words, if CAP were disbanded today...what would be so lost by the nation that they would have to reinvent CAP?  After answering that question, what is the most imaginative and effective ways to achieve positive results in accomplishing the mission/missions?  I guess what I am really saying is that to harness imagination, there must first be a comprehensible vision and mission for the organization.  My observation is that the vision is lacking and a lot of people are very protective of what their idea of mission is. 

I don't know it this makes any sense to anyone else?  If anyone can say it better (probably EVERYone can say it better) have at it!

Seems to be a reasoned approach to a generally recognized problem.  Would also seem to be an integral part of leadership in the organization at all levels, from squadron to CAP-NHQ. 

One observation which I would pose as a question ---> Where are the members willing to devote the time and take the risk to institute change?  Not sure it's a question of age, location or a multitude of other characteristics.  Would recommend that commanders evaluate, encourage, and assemble the types of CAP Officers who can conceptualize and implement needed change.

An old quotation comes to mind, the definition of "insanity".  "Doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result".  Instead of viewing the current state of CAP like the weather . . .  you know, "everyone talks about it, but no one does anything about it" . . . take a risk once, formulate a solution, and work to get it implemented.  Even it it fails, something will be learned.

[ZigZag911]

There has been an obvious need for some organizational change in CAP for many, many years.

It's true most of CAP's problems are of "our" own making....I qualify "our" because much of it comes from those at corporate officer level....that's where some institutional change needs to begin.

Any group composed of human beings will always have some politicking, it's inevitable.....but it needs to be ramped way down in CAP.

I recall years ago, in a typical wing, every few years there would be a 'changing of the guard' -- the "ins" would be replaced by the "outs" when a new wing CC came into office.

There were two differences back then to the way things happen now:

1) both staffs, old & new, had proper qualifications and experience

2) while there may have been very fundamental disagreements in methods, there was a basic mutual respect, such that no one lost their dignity, and no one was left on the outside of CAP looking in

[flyerthom]

To echo words written here...
I'm surprised that y'all have not started a thread asking CAP members what they would do if their town was invaded & occupied by aliens.

Some might classify this as "STUPID & a total waste of time." 

I live in Vegas. The place is full of aliens - in more ways than one...

cosmo

How about that? A G rated double entendre! 

As for seniors lacking imagination, it's because our cholesterol is getting dangerously close to normal since the doughnuts have been cut back.

In all due seriousness, because our mission is changing post 2001, it can be difficult to see innovation in progress. Yet it's there. How many would have seen Archer come on line just 7 years ago? How many would have predicted the mass use of digital photography just 5 years ago? How many would have thought of the use of the IMU and ICS before September 11?
Many of the things CAP thought important 20 years ago have faded and many things undreamed of 20 years ago are at the fore front. And 20 years from now those things may have faded and new challenges will arise. It's not that we lack imagination, it's that we move slowly but adapt quickly so we may not see what's in plain (plane) sight.

Either that, or we're so busy looking for old doughnuts we miss the Starbucks coffee...

[RogueLeader]

Here's a remake of a saying of Pres. Kennedy:

Ask not what your Country can do for CAP, but what CAP can do for the Country.

[RogueLeader]

I think that this thread needs to be resurected, lest we go it all again.

[Eclipse]

Why?

This isn't "coffee talk" its "CAPTalk", and certainly these "what if" scenarios are time / bit wasters.

There's plenty of other boards where you can discuss whatever you want. 

This is for CAP-related topics (yeah, and I know, I toss a tangentially related one once in a while, too, but you're not going to see me asking what we should do if t there's another civil war, or aliens invade, or if we became the 17th uniformed service under the central corps of the public dog catching service - I'm about coffee and uniform).

If, every once in a while, there's wasn't any traffic here, that'd be ok, too.

[GoofyOne]

It is not a lack of imagination.

It is being stifiled by others higher in the CoC.

It is politics of somebody thinking a new idea might make them look bad even though it isn't meant to.

It is fear of ticking somebody off with new fresh ideas and having a IG come visit for something totally different.

If somebody doesn't realize, and do it soon, our membership will continue to drop or get a lack of participation.  Everybody wants to feel needed and having an idea a least heard does wonders.  If the idea never makes it past the ears of the next level we'll never know if it was a good idea or not.

[Johnny Yuma]

Seniors don't need imagination. THat's what we have a cadet program for.

Full time Auxilliary? It'd be a pay cut for me, sorry.

[Short Field]

Not to call you out I just dont see how being both an officer and enlisted is possible. 

Been going on since at least the end of WWII.  Every time there is a reduction in force (RIF), many officers decided to accept an enlisted rank instead of separating from the service.  They hold a RESERVE commission and are in Inactive status while serving on active duty.   Back when we had Regular and Reserve and then Temporary and Permanent promotion boards, it was not uncommon to see a Staff Sargent who was a Reserve Major just putting in his last three years so he could retire as a Major.  IIRC, it was even possible for a really bad luck Lt Col to end up in the same situation.  Individual had been promoted to Lt Col on the Temp Board  but the Permanent Board did not select him.  So he wore stripes for a few years and retired as a Lt Col.

[cap235629]

or an officer who has served his maximum allowed commissioned service but is still not old enough for mandatory retirement.  Usually happens with AGR folks and Most take a warrant to get to 62, but some reenlist as an E8 or E9

[Short Field]

The biggest problem I find is NOT a lack of imagination but the LACK of an executable plan to make it happen.  An executable plan is something that only needs approval from up the chain to make happen.   It does not require the higher ups to (1) come up with funding, (2) do battle with the USAF and win, (3) do most of the work to make it happen, or (4) totally reorganizes/renames everything to solve a non-problem.  It also has to have enough buy-in at the appropriate levels to provide the manpower to make it work. 

[Rotorhead]

The problem with these "imagination" threads is, they always end up being about:

(a) what if we were part of the Real Air Force?

or (b) what if CAP was called upon to fight?

True "imagination in CAP" would deal with how we can better fulfill the three primary objectives of the organization, not figure out how we could do things that the Real Military already does.

Rarely does any discussion of an expanded role for CAP deal with mundane work that might need to be done (say, admin and other paperwork jobs)--no, it always posits that CAP members could fight alongside the active-duty military.

Of course, doing those admin jobs wouldn't be exciting, would it?

These threads often suggest that members aren't satisfied with doing what CAP does; that is why you get into the "wannabe military" arguments and name-calling.

[sparks]

Every squadron I've participated in had one or more KEY "sparkplugs" to keep activities moving. Those people were senior and cadet members that made meetings interesting and engaging. Without those folks the comment about senior members lacking imagination will kill a squadron. The same statement can be applied to any organization or club you care to name. You have to have someone taking ownership of the activity that has the time and desire to make it successful. Nothing new in that just stating the obvious.

[RogueLeader]

The big reason that I starte4d this thread, and resurected it; is not the imagination of doing new missions, or new proposals.  It is about thinking outside the box- dear Lord for me saying that.

It is to be looking at things in new ways, or ways that aren't the prettiest; then to be able to THINK about what you would do.  The only wrong answer is the one that does not address the question.  I want to provoke images of a bad situation, and see how you react.  Whether you see more into the question, that does not answer it.  If you weant to take it further than I want it too, please take it somewhere else.  that does not allow for the critical thought process of the topic that I want.

Should you choose a way that differs from mine, thats fine, thats normal discussion, as well aas whats to be expected.  When you put more meaning into whats given, you can radically change the tone of the thread.

That is what I meant by lacking imagination:  can't think in absrtacs.

[Rotorhead]

I want to provoke images of a bad situation, and see how you react. 

It might help our ability to think out of the box if you explained what you mean by "a bad situation."

[Rotorhead]

There are no comment boxes at my Wing HQ.....is there a comment box in YOUR Wing HQ?  Most likely NO!

But I do own a telephone and am able to call our Wing CC or Chief of Staff almost any time.

Email works, too.

I'll bet you could do the same.

This forum is one of the only places where our voices can be heard and recognized by the leadership in general. 

Have you tried sending a letter any anyone at NHQ? That's a way your "voice can be heard."

[RogueLeader]

I want to provoke images of a bad situation, and see how you react. 

It might help our ability to think out of the box if you explained what you mean by "a bad situation."

take my last topic about comply or not, or theres a thread about a year ago about us getting invaded.  A bad situtation is akin to Worst Case Senario type deal.  One that we all hope that never happens , but theoretically could.  It is not the type, however, that nothing can be done: ie: a huge meteroid is hurtuling towards the planet and will hit in one year.  Nothing we can do to stop it or change the outcome.

There are no comment boxes at my Wing HQ.....is there a comment box in YOUR Wing HQ?  Most likely NO!

But I do own a telephone and am able to call our Wing CC or Chief of Staff almost any time.

Email works, too.

I'll bet you could do the same.

This forum is one of the only places where our voices can be heard and recognized by the leadership in general. 

Have you tried sending a letter any anyone at NHQ? That's a way your "voice can be heard."

Again, not in the scope of the thread.  Please trake it elsewhere.

[Rob Sherlin]

 I don't think it so much of a "lack of imagination" as it is "coming up with a great idea and making it go somewhere". You have a lot of people in CAP (even right here on CAPtalk), that have awesome ideas. It just seems like to much of a haul to get them to go anywhere considering all the red tape.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

When Mexico invades & occupies the south-western U.S. I'll quit calling that STUPID thread STUPID.

There are some who would say Mexico silently has. Careful there....

[BuckeyeDEJ]

There are no comment boxes at my Wing HQ.....is there a comment box in YOUR Wing HQ?  Most likely NO!

But I do own a telephone and am able to call our Wing CC or Chief of Staff almost any time.
Email works, too.
I'll bet you could do the same.

This forum is one of the only places where our voices can be heard and recognized by the leadership in general. 

Have you tried sending a letter any anyone at NHQ? That's a way your "voice can be heard."

One problem: Chain of command. I can talk to my PA counterparts at squadrons below and wing, region and NHQ above, but I can't jump over my commander to talk to the wing commander about policy. Too often, we forget the chain... though, to be fair, sometimes it can be an impediment, depending on who's in someone's certain chain.

[RogueLeader]

HELLO!!!!

Did you not see my last post? ?
PLEASE!!!!!

[arajca]

I don't think it so much of a "lack of imagination" as it is "coming up with a great idea and making it go somewhere". You have a lot of people in CAP (even right here on CAPtalk), that have awesome ideas. It just seems like to much of a haul to get them to go anywhere considering all the red tape.

It's not just red tape. Many members come up with ideas, but do not want to spend the time to make them happen. Had a member come up with an idea to a AE activity based on CAP-N-Space (from Missouri?). He was told many times that the commander and the few active seniors didn't have time to plan/research it and he was asked to put together a written plan. Finally, we had to tell him no - not because his idea was bad, but because he refused to put in the time to plan it. We've seen the same from cadets, although a couple of times the cadet started planning and realized what his great idea would take ($$$$$$$$) and called it off.

[RogueLeader]

Whyskey Tango Foxtrot!!!

Seriously, take that elsewhere.

You know what:

Mods please lock this thread.