Standard UoD? I've got a plan...what's yours?

[Major Carrales]

Here is what I see...

There are so many uniform combos and types of people who wear different types of uniforms.  It makes it impossible for CAP members, even in the same squadron, to get the same items.  Unless a Squadron Commander, such as myself, "ordered" everyone...via squadron policy, to buy and wear one uniform.

Ideally, in the Carralesian Universe...

everyone would start with one uniform..."minimum basic" (aka short sleeve blues).  Order your ribbons and wear them for formal events. 

The move on to a field/operational uniform (BDUs or Flight Suit) as one's next purchase.  When one makes Captain, order a long sleeve shirt with tie.

When one becomes a Major, get into service dress...service coat.  Every Lt Col Should own a Service CAP for formal occasions (like CAP Funerals and Wing Conferences)


MESS DRESS for Field Grade Officers (ideally), sort of quasi-mandatory for Colonels on up.  Optional in the company grades.

When to wear the stuff...

REGULAR MEETINGS:

Short Sleeve Shirt Combo- no ribbons (save recruiters and PAOs)
BDUs/Flight Suit- If need be.

SARex:

Flightcrews- Flight Suits
Ground Teams/COMM- BDUs
Mission Staff- Short Sleeve Combo


Class Environment (AKA SLS/CLC/UCC et al):

Students: Short Sleeve Shirt Combo- no ribbons (save recruiters and PAOs)
Instructors: Service Coats

WING/REGION/NATONAL Conferences

Company Grade: Short/Long Sleeve Combo (with tie where appropriate) with ribbons
Field Grade and General Grades: Service Coats

Banquets and Dinners
MESS DRESS or SERVICE DRESS

That is what I would suggest if I were in charge of the CAP Universe.  Those that know me will see common themes.  Feel free to disagree...won't matter, it all conjectural anyway.

[RogueLeader]

Good Idea, I'll keep my ribbons on though.
<preparing for upcoming mentoring>

[Stonewall]

Similar to your plan, as commander, I have made minimum requirements for members.

Initially, for cadets and seniors, I require BDUs.  Why BDUs?  Because I've always been involved with ES-heavy squadrons.  While we always meet the requirements of a squadron as it relates to AE and CP, the squadrons I've been involved with have always been very involved with ES.  Generally the guy who joins and is interested in ground search and rescue won't be showing up to the wing banquet during his first year of membership.  Same with cadets.

With BDUs, you can participate in more activities than you can with blues.  e.g., model rocketry, orientation flights, all aspects of emergency services, air shows, tours of military facilities, regular meetings, and so on.

Once they've acquired their complete set of BDUs, on to blues.  And like you, I require the basics.  Short sleeve blues.  For seniors, I don't even bring up the option of ribbons.  For cadets, I've always been in a situation where we had our own stock and for the first few stripes, we issue them ribbons.  I even paid for a cadet's ground team badge if they earned it, as I made a whole ceremony out of it.

That's it.  BDUs and short sleeve blues.

I haven't been a part of a command staff since the TPU, but before that, 90% of my seniors met weight and grooming standards and wore the AF style uniform.  I can only think of two that didn't at my last squadron.  One, our AE officer, only showed up on AE nights and wore the polo shirt combo because he had a beard (former Army officer).  The other, our MLO, didn't meet weight standards so she wore the aviator shirt.

There wasn't a major D&C requirement, but our seniors did form up at the closing formation so the entire squadron could hear the announcements at the same time in addition to recognizing folks for awards.  I have to say, it looked pretty good to have a flight of 6 to 10 seniors all wearing the UOD, same as the cadets.  Very big morale boost for everyone involved, especially me.

As for the "when".  Like you, if any of my seniors were to attend a PD course, they wore short sleeve blues or short sleeve aviator shirt.  Even my AE officer had the aviator shirt for "special occasions".  

If members chose to do so, I'd help them put together a service dress uniform.  But for special events like wing banquets, I'd simply tell them to wear appropriate civilian attire because it wasn't worth spending upwards to $250 for a uniform they'd only wear once a year at best.

Your idea of instructors wearing service dress, I disagree.  Respectfully of course.  I always thought it was a good idea for everyone to be in the same uniform.  It's like at squadron meetings you often find the cadet officers wanting to wear ties to separate them from the junior cadets.  As if their rank and position didn't do that already.  As an instructor, I can't think of how me wearing service dress would help the situation.  In college, I never saw a professor wear a suit; probably because it would be uncomfortable.  If I did wear a service coat, I'd probably take it off after 10 minutes of raising my arm to point at things on the board.

There's my $.02.

[Major Carrales]

Good Idea, I'll keep my ribbons on though.
<preparing for upcoming mentoring>

I've got your back!!!

[Stonewall]

Good Idea, I'll keep my ribbons on though.
<preparing for upcoming mentoring>

So young and has so much to learn.

[Major Carrales]

Your idea of instructors wearing service dress, I disagree.  Respectfully of course.  I always thought it was a good idea for everyone to be in the same uniform.

A simple difference of opinion...no harm shall come of it.

As a teacher, I see it through my training.  The Teachers, in my educational practice, dress one level above the students. 

[ricecakecm]

If I were king of the world, we'd wear BDUs (BBDUs) and bags all the time, saving blues/aviator shirt combos for more special occasions.  But that's just me.

[JayT]

Your idea of instructors wearing service dress, I disagree.  Respectfully of course.  I always thought it was a good idea for everyone to be in the same uniform.

A simple difference of opinion...no harm shall come of it.

As a teacher, I see it through my training.  The Teachers, in my educational practice, dress one level above the students. 

Personnally, I don't believe that full service dress should be worn anytime other then formal occasions.

[RogueLeader]

I'd have to go with major Carrales, It is better for the Instructor to be better dressed than the students.  That is one of the things that they drill into you in becoming a Teacher :

You shall always dress to be at least one level above your students. 

While it is not quite as necessary for Seniors, I'd say needed for Cadets.

[Trung Si Ma]

As I contemplate a return to Squadron Commandership, I have been thinking about UOD more and more.  I'm thinking that the first meeting of the month (when we do the safety meeting, moral leadership, planning meetings, and awards) that I want everyone in a "dressy" uniform and am contemplating requiring the aviator shirt / gray slacks for seniors and the short sleeve blue shirt combo for the cadets.  Why the aviator shirt?  Because EVERY senior member can wear that uniform and it is (relatively) cheap to obtain. 

I'm even thinking of making ribbons required for that night.  Seniors will not have to wear all of their ribbons, but I want them to wear three (four if former cadet) to show that they are participating in all phases of the program.  Which three (four)?  Highest senior training award (we have several GRW's), highest aerospace award (we have people with the Crossfield Award), an ES award (find, SAR ribbon, disaster ribbon, CD Ribbon, etc), and if a former cadet, their highest cadet award ribbon.  Of course, if Rouge Leader wants to wear all of them, he will look splendiforous.

The other meeting nights, I'm happy if the seniors are in a uniform.

[RogueLeader]

Only got 4 anyways. . . .
Not to mention I only have Blues.  And unless I REALLY start to gain serious weight, That is what I'll wear.

[afgeo4]

I dunno... I always thought that Public Affairs shouldn't be in full bling because that's sort of bragging in front of cameras. They're usually not wearing ribbons in Air Force either.

Recruiters should always wear ribbons however, and blues whenever possible.

I think Mission Base staff should be in BDU's since they may be stationed in non-clean, non-a/c environment and/or required to move equpment, furniture, etc.

Aside from that... I think teachers and students should match uniforms. All CAP members at all activities should match uniforms. This isn't a civillian thing, it's a military thing. Uniforms aren't for good looks, they're for uniformity. Making exceptions for people in the military isn't a pleasant practice (for both parties) and is avoided whenever possible.

I also think aircrew members should be able to wear bags for meetings that are held at airports/air force bases/naval air stations/marine corps air stations, etc.

[afgeo4]

Only got 4 anyways. . . .
Not to mention I only have Blues.  And unless I REALLY start to gain serious weight, That is what I'll wear.

well... you could wear your Navy cammies, Admiral. You can just roll the sleeves the normal (Air Force) way.

[RogueLeader]

Only got 4 anyways. . . .
Not to mention I only have Blues.  And unless I REALLY start to gain serious weight, That is what I'll wear.

well... you could wear your Navy cammies, Admiral. You can just roll the sleeves the normal (Air Force) way.

lmao, rotf.

[MidwaySix]

I've got a growth spurt going on in my unit...

Most of the freshman class are joining up to fly as aircrew, (pilot and non-pilots) but I'm lucky in that many are showing a keen interest in getting cross trained as GTMs.

So here's the M6's *new* perfect universe scenario. Note that we have special circumstances, YMMV....

1. First off we sell them a $25 aviator shirt on their 3rd night after they pass their Membership Application Board. (We'll have some shirts in stock at the Squadron.) Tell them to wear that and the grey slacks that they already have in their closet, and as soon as their membership processes... bang! Dues + $25 = Ready to fly.

2. Then... BDUs. Ditto what Stonewall said about that. We've very ES heavy

3. Then... Flightsuit if they are going to be Aircrew.

4. Then... Blues. Short sleeve combo. (They'll need it when we ship them off to SLS.)

After that.. there are too many permutations to cover off on... as long as they follow reg.. have at it.

Corporate alternatives OK for people that don't meet grooming. (BBDUs, Blue Bag, etc.) TPU discouraged, too much static to go there.

Note that our meetings are held at an Army National Guard facility, and their UOD for aircrews, flying that day or not, is the bag. We simply follow suit with our brothers in green.

Just my $0.02.

- Midway Six

CAPblog
Always Vigilant - Never Boring.
http://capblog.typepad.com/

[brasda91]

Similar to your plan, as commander, I have made minimum requirements for members.

Initially, for cadets and seniors, I require BDUs.  Why BDUs?  Because I've always been involved with ES-heavy squadrons.  While we always meet the requirements of a squadron as it relates to AE and CP, the squadrons I've been involved with have always been very involved with ES.  Generally the guy who joins and is interested in ground search and rescue won't be showing up to the wing banquet during his first year of membership.  Same with cadets.

With BDUs, you can participate in more activities than you can with blues.  e.g., model rocketry, orientation flights, all aspects of emergency services, air shows, tours of military facilities, regular meetings, and so on.

Once they've acquired their complete set of BDUs, on to blues.  And like you, I require the basics.  Short sleeve blues.

That's it.  BDUs and short sleeve blues.

There's my $.02.

I'm assuming you already know this:

Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform.  Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.  Insignia: CAP nameplate, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

Therefore your requirement to have BDU's first is incorrect.  Not only are you not following the regs, you're having them spend their money on the wrong uniform.

A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.  Tours of military installations?

You don't expect your new members to attend the Wing Banquet during their first year?  What if they joined several months prior to the banquet, they have the uniform and the funds to attend?  You simply say, "Sorry, you not allowed to attend during your first year of membership?"  Sounds like a good way not to do retention.  You may want to rethink your uniform requirements.  

[RogueLeader]

1. First off we sell them a $25 aviator shirt on their 3rd night after they pass their Membership Application Board. (We'll have some shirts in stock at the Squadron.) Tell them to wear that and the grey slacks that they already have in their closet, and as soon as their membership processes... bang! Dues + $25 = Ready to fly.

- Midway Six

Good idea, but:
1-Not all members have gray trousers.
2- Still have to have name Tag and (CAP cutots?)

So you have $5 tape, plus $7 shipping from the Approved place, trousers- if needed $20+, so it's more like between $75 and $100 to start flying. 

What do you do for the members who do NOT want to wear corporates?

[Stonewall]

I'm assuming you already know this:

Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform.  Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.  Insignia: CAP nameplate, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

Therefore your requirement to have BDU's first is incorrect.  Not only are you not following the regs, you're having them spend their money on the wrong uniform.

A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The battle dress uniform (camouflage fatigue uniform) is worn when it is impractical or inappropriate to wear the service uniforms.  Tours of military installations?

You don't expect your new members to attend the Wing Banquet during their first year?  What if they joined several months prior to the banquet, they have the uniform and the funds to attend?  You simply say, "Sorry, you not allowed to attend during your first year of membership?"  Sounds like a good way not to do retention.  You may want to rethink your uniform requirements.  

It's funny, because I always get a lot of static about the way I commanded my squadron, but we had the highest retention rate in the wing and never, ever, ran into problems.  They were required to have BDUs in order to graduate their 9 week Training Flight and blues prior to the summer so they could attend encampment.  With the "free uniform program" (does it still exist?) cadets submitted their chit and it would take as long as 3 to 4 months to recieve their "free blues".  So you want me to make them buy a uniform they are/were supposed to get for free?  That's rediculous.  The one squadron I commanded and the 2 squadrons I served as DCC were run exactly the way I described above.  In all cases, we excelled and surpassed the other squadrons in the area.  It worked and it worked well. 

The "free uniform program" of yesterday was not sufficient, but in most cases it worked, 3 to 4 months too late.  So again, I had them purchase BDUs as their graduation uniform and primary uniform because if we waited for the blues to show up, they'd be A1Cs or SrA's before they arrived.  As for the wing banquet, they can go in appropriate civilian attire.  If asked why they aren't in blues, my answer is/was "these cadets have yet to recieve their free uniforms and I didn't want them to buy blues just to attend a wing event, then get their blues in the mail".

[Eclipse]

Note that our meetings are held at an Army National Guard facility, and their UOD for aircrews, flying that day or not, is the bag. We simply follow suit with our brothers in green.

Nice try.

[Eclipse]

Good idea, but:
1-Not all members have gray trousers.
2- Still have to have name Tag and (CAP cutots?)

So you have $5 tape, plus $7 shipping from the Approved place, trousers- if needed $20+, so it's more like between $75 and $100 to start flying. 

What do you do for the members who do NOT want to wear corporates?

What do you do for the members who do NOT want to wear corporates?

I suggest they find an alternative outlet for their volunteer service.

Any >ADULT< who can't be troubled to find a pair of (proper - no DOCKERS) gray slacks will not be an asset to the organization.

[Trung Si Ma]

What do you do for the members who do NOT want to wear corporates?

I suggest they find an alternative outlet for their volunteer service.

Or a different unit.

[isuhawkeye]

Iowa fits, and places an order for new officers in the OTS.  we tell them up front it will cost about $500 to join. 

They buy a utility, and a dress uniform.

When we lay that out up front we havnt had a problem.

[RogueLeader]

Both of you would turn a member away because they want to wear a uniform that they are authorized to wear.  If thats the case, I certainly would look elsewhere.  Saying that "We don't want you here wearing AF Style uniforms because not all members can were them" is Discrimination.  The whole reason we have Corporates is because the AF put limits on their style.  The AF is making a standard.  That was not our choice, we can't overturn that.  The only corporate uniform that I happen to like is the Flight Suit.

[Major Carrales]

I can't believe I am reading this meshegas!!!

We need to cast our nets wide...we can't turn away quality people because of uniforms.

We are darn lucky we even wear the uniforms of our countrymen.  We could have got an AIR RAID TOMMY HELMET and an ARMBAND, like Civil Defense...the idea is for citizens to uniquely serve their community.

Unless I am off base. 

When an 80 year old comes to a meeting...my first question in my mind is not "what does he look like in uniform," but rather, how can this man with 58 years of up kept COMM experience offer.  When a man with a beard comes to our unit, my first look is not into CAPM 39-1, but rather his quals as a CFI.

While y'all know my position of GOLF SHIRTS...if that is what it takes to get a motivated CFI with slight girth to become our check pilot so our aviators don't have to drive 300 miles to get a checkride...I have to yield to OPERATIONS.

Now, if we have 1 USAF STYLE with a 1 Parallel UNIVERSAL WEAR CAP distinctive...then we can have UoD that can be adhered to.

[jimmydeanno]

Personnally, I don't believe that full service dress should be worn anytime other then formal occasions.

Service Dress is not a formal garb.  It's one step up from the SS Shirt Combo - falls right in with normal everyday business suit wear.

If you look at the AF combos there are two levels above service dress; semi-formal (service dress with white shirt and bow tie) and the Mess Dress, which is the formal uniform.

[Eclipse]

While y'all know my position of GOLF SHIRTS...if that is what it takes to get a motivated CFI with slight girth to become our check pilot so our aviators don't have to drive 300 miles to get a checkride...I have to yield to OPERATIONS.

Unfortunately even this level of commitment is too much "burden", apparently to expect from our volunteers.

All the RealMilitary legacy discussions aside, many highly  effective ES organizations, including FD, PD and the ARC operate with a gold shirt as their basic duty uniform, with the fancier stuff left for staff and ceremonies.

But they all where SOMETHING to uniquely and quickly identify themselves as part of the team and separate from John Q. Public.

If ducking into a restroom and changing your shirt is "too much to ask", how can we expect these members to respond at 3am for a mission?

Can't afford / don't want to wear SDU's? No problem.  Can't afford / don't want to wear a gold shirt and proper trousers...(insert witty retort here).

[SARMedTech]

I have recently become a medical specialist with IMERT (Illinois Medical Emergency Response Team). When the Team was formed in 1999, its uniform consisted of black BDUs, black t-shirt with the logo on the pocket and IMERT printed on the back in blue, black belt, black boots, black BDU or boonies. With a phase out of 2011, we will be wearing khakis. For the members that wish to lay out the expense of khaki bdu's, this is the preferred uniform, along with the "trademark" black and blue t-shirt. When someone joins the organization whether as a medical, logistics, communications or safety officer, they are issue three of the t-shirts and a team jacket of the style worn by many volunteer fire departments: AT NO COST TO THE MEMBER. They are then asked to purchase or wear existing khaki colored pants, bdu or otherwise, black steel toed safety boots and the khaki cap, either a patrol cover or boonie. They are not ever required to outfit themselves in BDUs though it is the preferred uniform of command level members and, admittedly the most practical clothing choice because of its utilitarian nature, cut, etc. When and if a member ascends to be part of the Command team (based on experience, training, time in service, number of deployments, etc based on a point system) they are encouraged to by the double breasted naval style uniform of the US Public Health Service and substitute lite blue sleeve braid for the USPHS gold. This is an expensive uniform and is not required. For those members thats choose to wear the BDU uniform, team patches with rockers are issued along with Illinois Terrorism Task Force patches and specialty rockers worn under the team patch. Name tapes and IMERT tapes are provided at the members expense and are produced for us by an area Army Navy surplus.

The whole point of this is that the emphasis in IMERT is on ability, continued training and commitment to excellence of service. Might we have a variety of looks when we deploy or do a mass casualty drill? Yes. Some of our commo folks are wearing dockers and the T-shirt and I am wearing BDUs, boonie and drop thigh medical rig because it practically suits what I do...my actual function on the team. No medals, no ribbons, no flight wings. At the most there may be a presidential or gubernatorial citation pin worn on the collar, which the members that deployed to Katrina and other such disasters wear and which will become more common as our out of state deployments increase.

Our command team has decided that its more important when members spend money that it is on training, lodging at drills and our training "boot camp" weekend. I did not serve with this Team during Katrina, but I have a feeling there was no lack of public respect or appreciation or lack of gratitude for a job exceptionally well done when the team saw, treated and transported close to 3500 individuals in need of care in 72 hours. The command team has decided that cutting edge equipment, medical and logistic, has greater importance the perfect uniformity.

Thats my 2 cents which with a buck-fifty will give you $1.52.

[RiverAux]

While I sometimes do wear the golf shirt, anyone putting a requirement on me to wear one of the corporate uniforms, especially one I don't have (aviator shirt) would soon find me at the meeting in AF-style uniform on a consistent basis or not see me at all.  I consider all corporate uniforms as "extras" and if we're going to be requiring anything, it should be an AF-style uniform.   

[davedove]

The best you can hope for is to require a certain level of dress.  In other words a certain AF style uniform or its corporate equivalent.  You can't require just the AF style, because some members can't wear it.  Whether we like it or not, CAP is not currently set up for complete uniformity.

[Hawk200]

The best you can hope for is to require a certain level of dress.  In other words a certain AF style uniform or its corporate equivalent.  You can't require just the AF style, because some members can't wear it.  Whether we like it or not, CAP is not currently set up for complete uniformity.

Agreed.

Still wouldn't hurt to minimize the variations. Do we really need three options?

[RiverAux]

Now, if the whole unit wants to sit down and discuss things and comes to the decision (as mentioned by another poster on another thread) to make one of the corporate uniforms their standard UoD, thats fine by me.  I would probably argue against it if I were in the unit, but would go along with the majority.  In my mind that is much different than the commander telling everyone to go out and buy a corp uniform and wear it. 

Granted, the commander has the authority to decide on UoD, but on a practical level it needs to be decided democratically by the unit since any such decision will require the members to spend money out of their own pocket to comply. 

[Ricochet13]

Now, if the whole unit wants to sit down and discuss things and comes to the decision (as mentioned by another poster on another thread) to make one of the corporate uniforms their standard UoD, thats fine by me.  I would probably argue against it if I were in the unit, but would go along with the majority.  In my mind that is much different than the commander telling everyone to go out and buy a corp uniform and wear it. 

Granted, the commander has the authority to decide on UoD, but on a practical level it needs to be decided democratically by the unit since any such decision will require the members to spend money out of their own pocket to comply. 

Just started a rebuilding process with my squadron which has been inactive as a unit for a time.  We are conducting combined training with a new squadron nearby.  Both commanders have tried to be practical and not break the bank of individual members with overwhelming uniform requirements.  All of the members have had a chance to look at the array of uniform options available have have come up with a consensus and consistent approach to UoD.

Both units have agreed to start with the blue golf shirt and grey pants.  Easy, inexpensive, and provides for a feeling unit cohesion.  The next step will be to purchase the white aviator shirt.  Again, focus on keeping expenses down and contributing to unit cohesion.

There is no "prohibition" if members want to purchase additional uniforms, and several have gotten BDU's.  (All had their "baptism of fire" so-to-speak with a recent missing aircraft search and performed in an outstanding manner.)

The idea is to "say" we are a unit, "look" like we are a unit, and "act" as a unit with a modicum of esprit and training where all have had an opportunity to work together.

So far it has worked out well.  When training, whether as individuals units or combined, the two squadrons have a UoD which adds to a member's feeling of belonging.

It may also help that 95% of the members are new with no "pre-conceived" ideas of what has to be done with regard to uniforms.

Tags, deleted misquote post - MIKE

[Dragoon]

We put all seniors in Blue Field and Utilities (their choice) immediately.

We give seniors working with cadets the option of dressing like the cadets when needed.  But the blue utility/field suits are always acceptable.

That way, everyone looks alike (the two blend together nicely), regardless of weight or grooming.

It keeps the price down.

For non CP guys, you can do 90% of what you need to do in CAP in a utility uniform.  And for most of the rest (like Wing conferences) you can make due with a civilian suit if need be.

Works out great.  At least for a (primarily) ES/Flying squadron.