Would You GO??

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jim:

. . .

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time

. . .

So, where could you put bomb racks on a 172? Or perhaps We could carry some hellfire missiles. We'd have a mission pilot fly the airplane and a mission observer work the hellfire electronics...

The technology that permitted CAP to engage enemy submarines, namely diesel-electric submarine propulsion has gone the way of the leisure suit.

But, CAP has many valuable resources that could be brought to a battle.  All that would be needed is one little legislative change.

Example... flying Predators.  Our cadets and younger officers are experts in the video game technology used in flying them.  A Predator mission involves:  1.  Takeoff.  2.  Navigation by GPS, and 3.  Landing.  I've done that to go for a hamburger.  Why waste a skilled USAF pilot when a CAP pilot could do just as well?

[ZigZag911]

Much the same reason some HLS/CN aviation missions are going to state police, sheriff's departments, even ANG/NG units....job security!!!

Right now, as I understand it, USAF has more pilots than planes for them to fly....even with personnel cutbacks, there remains more pilots than they really know what to do with (or so I've been told).

There will be a terrific uproar if our unpaid volunteers replace paid professional aviators, military or civilian.

If we supplement their numbers -- where there may be a local need greater than assigned personnel can fulfill -- there we might be welcome.

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense economically.

At the same time I'm not advocating taking the bread off anyone's table!

Just setting forth the situation as I understand it.

[wingnut]

Actually flying Predators is very complicated, I have been told that there are several pilots involved with a preditor flight. One on take off locally, and one at Nellis AFB, the nellis people are actually contract pilots. Now with the support team on local site and Nellis there is a total of 15 people working or assigned to the flight. Crazy stuff for one 10 million dollar plane.

As for being called up to active duty. . . interesting situation, but if you read the fine line the draft age is 18 to 35, and prior military are being called back to active duty even after the had been in 5 years, the commitment is 7 years but that can be extended by the President ( doing that now) And if the Ball went up you could expect a majority of CAP members would serve proudly. things would have to be really bad for that to happen, Nuclear strike, Meteorite, Alien Invasion

Green Part being elected

[SAR-EMT1]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

[SARMedTech]

If they wanted to send non-combatant medics and corpsman, I would go. The only problem is that all the ways that are used to mark a non-combatant make us even better targets and there are few better ways to destroy unit moral than to "snipe" a corpsman.

[Ricochet13]

Just tell me where and when.  I'll be there.

[RiverAux]

To answer the question in the subject line -- While I could use my existing paid leave and could probably rearrange my work schedule for about a month, I couldn't do it for free beyond that time period and would need some federal or state legislation protecting my job while I was gone. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

If they wanted to send non-combatant medics and corpsman, I would go. The only problem is that all the ways that are used to mark a non-combatant make us even better targets and there are few better ways to destroy unit moral than to "snipe" a corpsman.

Unfortunately, the enemy does not respect the Laws of War.  That's why we call them "Unlawful Combatants" and deny them the rights of Prisoners of War.  They are not entitled to such rights.

But Navy hospital corpsmen have not worn the red cross insignia since Guadalcanal.  They don't even issue them.  I don't know what the Air Force's rules are.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

No, but in WWII CAP officers and NCO's were paid per diem living expenses.

[RiverAux]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

No, but in WWII CAP officers and NCO's were paid per diem living expenses.

Per diem don't pay the mortgage though....

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

No, but in WWII CAP officers and NCO's were paid per diem living expenses.

Per diem don't pay the mortgage though....

This is true.  And this is why this discussion is either hypothetical, limited to short-duration tours, or both.

By that I mean there would be no reason a CAP chaplain could not go over on a C-9 and return with the load of wounded.  Our certified medics could also fill in for AF personnel the same way.  Nobody's going over for a full tour wearing ultramarine blue nametapes.

I'd look for missions over here though.  Why can't our lawyers help the AF lawyers writing wills for deploying troops?  How about using CAP personnel as aggressors/refugees in exercises?

[RiverAux]

Our certified medics could also fill in for AF personnel the same way.  Nobody's going over for a full tour wearing ultramarine blue nametapes.

Well, there probably aren't going to be many people who volunteer for a year and a half tour for no pay.  However, I bet a few of our retired folks might consider going for several months at a time.

However, as much as I am in favor of dramatically expanding (basically creating) a program for CAP augmentation of the AF, the reality is that we would be of more use back here in the US, pehaps backfilling for those that have been deployed.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

River:

You are correct.  I suggested that CAP establish a single person, attached to the personnel office at each and every AF base, as the CAP Augmentation Coordinator.  His duty would be to match base shortfalls with trained (or trainable) CAP officers or cadets.

[RiverAux]

Makes sense to me.  However, I would expand it to Air National Guard and Air Reserve units that may or may not actually be associated with a "real" Air Force Base.

[Viper QA]

As a member of both CAP & the USAF I don't see any deployed use for CAP. There are just too many variables involved for the DOD to even consider deploying non-military, uniformed, civilian personnel.

CAP members are best suited doing exactly what they are doing...ES, disaster relief, homeland security, & cadet training.

As far as arming our aircraft goes...I'm hoping that was a joke. There are laws prohibiting the arming of civilian aircraft (to include law enforcement). CAP aircraft are not military assets. They are property of CAP the corporation & not the USAF. Besides that I don't believe the C172 could carry the equipment necessary to even carry the Hellfire or Brimstone missile. Not to mention the classified software needed to aim & fire the missile.

[Nomex Maximus]

Would I go?

Are you ready for an extrememly politically incorrect answer?

If not go to another topic NOW.

Would I go?  Yes. BUT. . .

[[[edited/deleted by author. If you really wat to know my reservations, ask.]]]

[ZigZag911]

River:

You are correct.  I suggested that CAP establish a single person, attached to the personnel office at each and every AF base, as the CAP Augmentation Coordinator.  His duty would be to match base shortfalls with trained (or trainable) CAP officers or cadets.

The problem with this idea is it is logical, sensible, workable, efficient, and solves the problem!

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Arming our aircraft may sound like a joke, but I remember one incident where the military thought we were armed.   We  were on a SAREX where our assignment required us to enter restricted Military airspace.   We called the appropriate military authority and asked for the clearance.  The controller said they would have to check it out.  After a few minutes the controller came back on and in an excited voice said "Standby, whatever you do dont drop your ordinance".   After a good laugh we explained to him we were on a photo mission and would remain outside his airspace until confirmation could be obtained.

[Nomex Maximus]

For get the Hellfire missiles on the 172. I think the 172 could be modified to carry one or two of these:

http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/davyc.HTM

Just a thought.

--Nomex

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes, the "Davy Crockett."  Perhaps the dumbest thing ever designed by the Army.  I can picture a bunch of Field Artillery officers at the Fort Sill officers' club starting a happy hour joke about "Atomic hand grenades" and by closing time the Davy Crockett was sketched out on the cocktail napkins.

The first step in shooting a Davy Crockett was to dig a big hole.  The range of the Davy Crockett was such that if the shooters were not protected, they would kill as many of their own troops as the enemy.

And, while it would have been likely to stop an enemy advance, I would not recommend trying to occupy the area to the front and seize any terrain.  Not unless you want your kids to be born with one eye or something.