Would You GO??

[wingnut]

Army Offering $20,000 Bonus For 'Quick' Recruits
Bonus Goes To Those Willing To Ship Out Within Month

So prior military "Interested"? should we draft? Did you know that CAP is considered a Mobilization asset by the DOD.

I would in a hot NY minute, but. . .

[Tubacap]

I would be interested to see the quote in some DoD reg for CAP mobilization.  We have talked about this several times on this board, but no one seems to be able to cite it.

[Stonewall]

I'm already in the Guard, just waiting for my number to be called for deployment.  This fall is looking like it may happen.

If I were out and a civilian again, I may do a 1 or 2 year enlistment, but being a new father, I'd have to say being away from my son takes priority over everything.  That's why my wife (also in the Guard) and I have said that we'll go willingly, but won't volunteer anytime soon.

Been deployed before, its kind of fun and I would gladly do it again, but like last time, they'll have to call me.

I used to have a high paying job, six figures my last year.  Had all the glory, travel, perks, gear, weapons, etc., but I learned a valuable lesson.  Money isn't everything.  And in the grand scheme of things, $20,000 ain't a whole bunch.

[ltcmark]

Did you know that CAP is considered a Mobilization asset by the DOD.

I have been in CAP 35 years, most all of it actively involved in Emergency Services.  I have heard things like this in the past.

I have gotten pretty good at finding DoD and Air Force regs on their web-sites.  I did and search and came up with this document.

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afdd2-10.pdf

This is very interesting reading.

This is from page 20:

Air Force Auxiliary / Civil Air Patrol (AFAUX/CAP)
The AFAux/CAP is authorized, when directed by the Secretary of the Air Force,
to fulfill any non-combat mission of the Air Force. When CAP operates in AFAux status, it is an Air Force federal military activity and as such is required to comply with the Posse Comitatus Act and intelligence oversight restrictions. AFAux/CAP forces are presented through the Air Education and Training Command commander to AFNORTH (1 AF) or PACAF in response to requests for DSCA, consequence management operations, and other federal operations.

This is also in one of the information boxes:

AFAux/CAP assets, much like the ANG, can be classified into two
categories within the law and can only be in one status at a time. The first category is Title 10, where these Air Force Auxiliary forces are deemed an instrumentality of the United States when carrying out a non-combat mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force. The second category is where these same individuals and equipment are acting in the CAP Corporate category under title 36 as a federally sanctioned non-profit corporation.
—Information derived from Titles 10 and 36, U.S.C.

So, from all of this, I gather that they look at us as deployable.  Not to the extent that they say you will have to go, but to the extent of "here is a misson, go do it".

[ltcmark]

This link is interesting also:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/302512p.pdf

The document is 13 years old, so I do not know if it is still current.  CAP is mentioned a number of times.

[LtCol White]

Got my desert BDU's all ready to go!!! Perhaps CAP can bring order to Baghdad!!!! We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

[Stonewall]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

[LtCol White]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

ergo my point  We could start training troops how to do this.

[RogueLeader]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

Sweet.

[flyguy06]

Did you know that CAP is considered a Mobilization asset by the DOD.

I have been in CAP 35 years, most all of it actively involved in Emergency Services.  I have heard things like this in the past.

I have gotten pretty good at finding DoD and Air Force regs on their web-sites.  I did and search and came up with this document.

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afdd2-10.pdf

This is very interesting reading.

This is from page 20:

Air Force Auxiliary / Civil Air Patrol (AFAUX/CAP)
The AFAux/CAP is authorized, when directed by the Secretary of the Air Force,
to fulfill any non-combat mission of the Air Force. When CAP operates in AFAux status, it is an Air Force federal military activity and as such is required to comply with the Posse Comitatus Act and intelligence oversight restrictions. AFAux/CAP forces are presented through the Air Education and Training Command commander to AFNORTH (1 AF) or PACAF in response to requests for DSCA, consequence management operations, and other federal operations.

This is also in one of the information boxes:

AFAux/CAP assets, much like the ANG, can be classified into two
categories within the law and can only be in one status at a time. The first category is Title 10, where these Air Force Auxiliary forces are deemed an instrumentality of the United States when carrying out a non-combat mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force. The second category is where these same individuals and equipment are acting in the CAP Corporate category under title 36 as a federally sanctioned non-profit corporation.
—Information derived from Titles 10 and 36, U.S.C.

So, from all of this, I gather that they look at us as deployable.  Not to the extent that they say you will have to go, but to the extent of "here is a misson, go do it".

This is interesting. So wher would a guy like me, (current Army Guard guy) dit in? I cant be activated by the Air Force since I am curently an Army officer. Cant be in two services at the same time.

[ZigZag911]

If there were a mission I could perform to assist the country, I'd certainly go.

However, as far as CAP being "deployable", the US Code quoted above authorizes utilization of CAP resources & personnel in support of USAF's non-combat role.

Would this not preclude sending CAP personnel to a combat zone?

While USAF medical personnel & chaplains are non-combatants, they are in the war zone supporting the combat role of the Air Force, by looking after the needs of combat forces.

[Hawk200]

However, as far as CAP being "deployable", the US Code quoted above authorizes utilization of CAP resources & personnel in support of USAF's non-combat role.

Would this not preclude sending CAP personnel to a combat zone?

While USAF medical personnel & chaplains are non-combatants, they are in the war zone supporting the combat role of the Air Force, by looking after the needs of combat forces.

Being a non-combatant doesn't mean "no combat zone". It means the individual doesn't carry arms or actively engage in combat actions. Hearing a confession, or patching up a soldier on the battlefield are still combat roles, but not combatant roles.

You'd have to look up what the Air Force or DOD considers non-combat roles. But we wouldn't be permitted to deploy to a combat zone in any role.

[wingnut]

Interesting Point

Was CAP involved in combat in world war II?? YES

as for mobilization if you read the DOD files on mobilization CAP is considered to be a military militia, but on a higher scale. Interestingly after Katrina a medical unit of the Maryland State Militia was actually activated, sworn into the Guard and federalized by the US Government. Check the Maryland State Militia web site. I will dig up the mobilization docs, I find it interesting, I think CAP as a whole is plagued by an identity crisis, it seems that  many of the current members are unsure as to where we come from, who we are, and where are we going.

[ddelaney103]

Intresting Point

Was CAP involved in combat in world war II?? YES

as for mobilization if you read the DOD files on mobilization CAP is considered to be a military militia, but on a higher scale. Interestingly after Katrina a medical unit of the Maryland State Militia was actually activated, sworn into the Guard and federalized by the US Government. Check the Maryland State Militia web site.

I did, and you are incorrect.

The MDDF was sworn into service as part of the state militia and sent to LA (http://www.mddefenseforce.org/news/katrina01.php).  As a result of this they were awarded the Maryland State Active Duty Medal, which is not given for federalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_National_Guard_State_Active_Duty_Medal).

[wingnut]

INCORRECT?

go to the Maryland defense force web site and explain how an entire unit of the defense force is airlifted to bosnia under orders from NATO using USAF assets working as a USAF or US Army field unit is a figment of my imagination???

When was the last CAP unit shipped overseas to work for NATO, are we even in the same catagory? are we really an asset? can we become more of a military unit, or should we continue to be like boy scouts??

[JohnKachenmeister]

CAP's combat service was in World War II.  Subsequent to the war, a new law re-established CAP as a permanent auxiliary of the new Air Force.  That's when the "Non combat missions and programs of the Air Force" clause was written in.

"Non-combat" as it is expressed in the establishing legislation, is NOT  "Non combatant" as is expressed in the Geneva Convention.  CAP is a force multiplier, and therefore, under the Geneva Accords, a combat force.  The only "Noncombatant" status recognized under the Geneva Accords is chaplains and medical personnel. 

It is interesting that the establishing legislation does NOT include restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel, only a stipulation that CAP be involved in "Noncombat" missions and programs only.

So, based on that, CAP could:

1.  Deploy chaplains into the War Zones.

2.  Deploy medical personnel into the War Zones.

3.  Deploy trainers overseas to train Iraqi/Afghan troops, but not into the combat zone.

4.  Deploy training, medical, chaplains, or and administrative personnel to overseas areas other than war zones to perform any AF mission.

Anybody feel like setting up the Iraqi Civil Air Patrol with a fleet of light fixed-wing aircraft to patrol the Iranian border and provide recon and SAR to the new government?  I'm serious... we could also start a Cadet Corps that would provide a continuous stream of disciplined young men and women into the Iraqi forces and counter the garbage they are fed in their schools.

I'd do it, but CAPR 900-3 would have to either be modified or ignored!

[LtCol White]

CAP's combat service was in World War II.  Subsequent to the war, a new law re-established CAP as a permanent auxiliary of the new Air Force.  That's when the "Non combat missions and programs of the Air Force" clause was written in.

"Non-combat" as it is expressed in the establishing legislation, is NOT  "Non combatant" as is expressed in the Geneva Convention.  CAP is a force multiplier, and therefore, under the Geneva Accords, a combat force.  The only "Noncombatant" status recognized under the Geneva Accords is chaplains and medical personnel. 

It is interesting that the establishing legislation does NOT include restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel, only a stipulation that CAP be involved in "Noncombat" missions and programs only.

So, based on that, CAP could:

1.  Deploy chaplains into the War Zones.

2.  Deploy medical personnel into the War Zones.

3.  Deploy trainers overseas to train Iraqi/Afghan troops, but not into the combat zone.

4.  Deploy training, medical, chaplains, or and administrative personnel to overseas areas other than war zones to perform any AF mission.

Anybody feel like setting up the Iraqi Civil Air Patrol with a fleet of light fixed-wing aircraft to patrol the Iranian border and provide recon and SAR to the new government?  I'm serious... we could also start a Cadet Corps that would provide a continuous stream of disciplined young men and women into the Iraqi forces and counter the garbage they are fed in their schools.

I'd do it, but CAPR 900-3 would have to either be modified or ignored!

Well, we do have nametapes that say US CIVIL AIR PATROL now. Perhaps this is one of those "Exciting new missions" TP was talking about.

[Chaplaindon]

CAP's combat service was in World War II.  Subsequent to the war, a new law re-established CAP as a permanent auxiliary of the new Air Force.  That's when the "Non combat missions and programs of the Air Force" clause was written in.

"Non-combat" as it is expressed in the establishing legislation, is NOT  "Non combatant" as is expressed in the Geneva Convention.  CAP is a force multiplier, and therefore, under the Geneva Accords, a combat force.  The only "Noncombatant" status recognized under the Geneva Accords is chaplains and medical personnel. 

It is interesting that the establishing legislation does NOT include restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel, only a stipulation that CAP be involved in "Noncombat" missions and programs only.

So, based on that, CAP could:

1.  Deploy chaplains into the War Zones.

2.  Deploy medical personnel into the War Zones.

3.  Deploy trainers overseas to train Iraqi/Afghan troops, but not into the combat zone.

4.  Deploy training, medical, chaplains, or and administrative personnel to overseas areas other than war zones to perform any AF mission.

Anybody feel like setting up the Iraqi Civil Air Patrol with a fleet of light fixed-wing aircraft to patrol the Iranian border and provide recon and SAR to the new government?  I'm serious... we could also start a Cadet Corps that would provide a continuous stream of disciplined young men and women into the Iraqi forces and counter the garbage they are fed in their schools.

I'd do it, but CAPR 900-3 would have to either be modified or ignored!

There may be a disconnect (of sorts) between the USAF Regs and CAPRs regarding "restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel," at least where chaplains are concerned.

CAPR 265-1 (E), §A, 2b, (p. 1): "The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under the conditions that the Secretary deems appropriate."

The same paragraph adds, "In anticipation of this requirement the CAP Chaplain Service will ... provide appropriate training to prepare [CAP chaplains] for domestic, non-combat ministries."

I wonder if there is codicil (somewhere) in the USAF Regs prohibiting foreign deployment of CAP personnel or if NHQ just created that line in 265-1 out of thin air.

Nevertheless, IMHO, even if CAP personnel do not go overseas, our use at stateside bases could release active, AFRES and ANG personnel to deploy and hence be a force multiplier. I know that chaplains are already serving in unpaid capacities augmenting at USAF chapels throughout the country.

That having been said, if called, I'd go ... whether stateside or "down-range."

[James Shaw]

The question as to if the CAP was considered Combat or Non-Combat during the early days of WWII is something that the historians and others have wrestled with many times. We were founded as a support auxiliary not as an active agressor. We did not have any formal approval for active activities against anyone other than the patrol and watching for U-Boats. The coastal patrol initially did not have any weapons other than some personal sidearms. It was only after a couple of missed opportunities that they were approved for limited munitions.

The argument has been made that we did not have defined targets that we looked for. We simply responded with some bombs. Therefore we did not qualify under some terms of Combat.

The other argument is that we did carry munitions authorized by the OCD which put us in a Combat Ready position.

One could take either side .....

[jimmydeanno]

I think it is funny that people say "oh yeah, I'd go in a minute."  There are a lot of people who say they'd do something because they'll never actually get called out on it.

It is easy for someone that is medically disqualified from service to say, "I'd join in a heartbeat...if I could." because there isn't anyway they actually could and actually have to serve.

I honestly can not tell you what my answer to this question would be, because I have never and will never be put in a situation where I would actually have to make that choice.

I am very grateful for those who have actually made the choice to serve, my wife is one of them.  The stress and worry put on those who do serve about leaving their families and the possibility of not returning is difficult to manage for many service members. 

I just think that unless you are in a position where you actually have to make that choice, you can't make one because you won't have the actual factors involved in making it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jim:

That's what happens when you let lawyers write history.

Initially, you are correct, CAP was organized under Civil Defense.  CAP members had no uniforms, only an identifying armband.  (Of course, that left the membership with nothing to talk about, but I digress.)

There were several incidents where U-Boats were observed and CAP crews were unable to locate any military forces to respond to attack them.  The last of these incidents was in Florida, but there were indidents off the Texas Gulf Coast as well.

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time, his other staff members pointed out that if any CAP members were to be captured by German submarine crews, the volunteers could be considered "Unlawful Combatants" and summarily shot since they were not members of the Armed Forces in uniform.

Arnold's response was to declare that CAP was an "Auxiliary" of the Army Air Corps.  He ordered that the members wear a modified Army uniform, and go out and kill Germans.  He had no legal authority to do this, but Arnold wasn't a lawyer.  Having an Air Corps general officer in command of the CAP helped this process along without any controversy.  Times were different then.

At that point, under the Geneva Convention and under US law, CAP became a combat asset of the Army Air Corps.  I don't know what "Some" people say about targets not being defined, since the mission was clear:  Find Germans off the coast of the United States and attack them.  This mission was carried out 73 times, with at least two resulting in German submarines being sunk.

We were, as an organzation, in "Limbo" for a while in 1947.  The Air Force was a new and stand-alone branch of service, but CAP was still the auxiliary of the Army Air Corps, which now did not exist.  In 1948 this was resolved when a law was passed making CAP the auxiliary of the Air Force, and we were given our missions that we still have today:  Cadet programs, Aerospce Education, and noncombat missions of the Air Force.  We are now dealing with exactly what "noncombat" means when it was codified into law by our elected representatives.

Could we deploy persons who are "Noncombatant" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention to a war zone?  Could we deploy trainers to a war zone on a mission that is unlikely to involve direct combat?  Could we train CAP pilots as Predator operators and (sitting in a non-combat zone in Nevada) have them bring Hellfires onto enemy forces in Afghanistan?  How far can we push the "Noncombat missions and programs" envelope, and what will happen if we push too far?  Who or what is the "Controlling legal authority" to use Algore's words?  Will we get a ticket from the Noncombat Police?

AFI's can be changed almost as easily as CAPR's.  They are something above notes on a dry-erase board, but they are short of "Carved in stone."

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think it is funny that people say "oh yeah, I'd go in a minute."  There are a lot of people who say they'd do something because they'll never actually get called out on it.

It is easy for someone that is medically disqualified from service to say, "I'd join in a heartbeat...if I could." because there isn't anyway they actually could and actually have to serve.

I honestly can not tell you what my answer to this question would be, because I have never and will never be put in a situation where I would actually have to make that choice.

I am very grateful for those who have actually made the choice to serve, my wife is one of them.  The stress and worry put on those who do serve about leaving their families and the possibility of not returning is difficult to manage for many service members. 

I just think that unless you are in a position where you actually have to make that choice, you can't make one because you won't have the actual factors involved in making it.

I know what my decision would be, Jimmy.

The same as it was in 1966 when I enlisted, in 1969 when I got orders to Vietnam, in 1986 when I was sent to Central America, and in 1991 when my reserve unit was called up for the First Gulf War.

If the waived my high blood pressure I'd be packing now.

The US Cavalry used to recycle their old horses, once they became unfit for use in battle, to pull wagons.  They kept them until they became too old to pull wagons, then they cwould butcher them and serve them for dinner in the mess hall.  It was noted that once the old wagon-puller horses smelled or heard a battle, that they became agitated, hard to control, their conditioning made them want to join the battle with the other horses.

Now I know how they felt.

[brasda91]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

Can you say "HOOAH!"  BTDT with the 82nd.

[ddelaney103]

INCORRECT?

go to the Maryland defense force web site and explain how an entire unit of the defense force is airlifted to bosnia under orders from NATO using USAF assets working as a USAF or US Army field unit is a figment of my imagination???

When was the last CAP unit shipped overseas to work for NATO, are we even in the same catagory? are we really an asset? can we become more of a military unit, or should we continue to be like boy scouts??

If you have a reference for this "Bosnia federalization" event, feel free to place in your post.

The 10th Medical Regiment talks about sending five MDDF physicians and a dentist to Bosnia  for four-weeks (http://www.mddefenseforce.org/units/medical/index.php), which is not exactly a "whole unit" as medical units rarely form fire teams.

Finally, there is a big difference b/w "deployment" and "federalization."  I, as a DoD Civilian, have been deployed to foreign countries.  I wore a uniform (with civilian distinguishing  markings) and worked alongside Soldiers, civilians and contractors.  I was not, however, federalized - I had no military status nor could I be punished (besides being sent home and fired) for not following orders.  If I had to guess, the status of those doctors and dentist were probably along the same lines.

However, I could be wrong.  Feel free to post your references that show differently.

As to CAP, I don't think we bring enough unique skillsets to the game to go anyplace.  The only "USAF equivalent" assets we have are Chaplains.  Could this expand to doctors, nurses and lawyers?  Possibly, but just as the average MDDF'er doesn't go many places, it would be the same for CAP.

If you really want to serve, you either join up or bring something to the table they can use.  CAP doesn't do either of these.

As a side note, I helped bring a pharmacist into CAP.  She gets to be a Captain, but is unlikely to ever push a pill in service to her country.  If the situation repeated itself, I'd push someone like that towards the MDDF, where they could put their skills to use.

[PA Guy]

INCORRECT?

go to the Maryland defense force web site and explain how an entire unit of the defense force is airlifted to bosnia under orders from NATO using USAF assets working as a USAF or US Army field unit is a figment of my imagination???

When was the last CAP unit shipped overseas to work for NATO, are we even in the same catagory? are we really an asset? can we become more of a military unit, or should we continue to be like boy scouts??

The folks from the Maryland SDF went as employees of the State of Maryland.  They were issued Invitational Travel Orders from DOD that authorizes DOD travel support etc. These orders start out "You are invited .......  They were not federalized.

CA has done something similar 2-3 times, deploying a medical team primarily composed of DMAT members, to Ukraine to support and augment CA ANG medical teams. They went as employees of CA/EMSA and had the above mentioned Invitational Travel Orders.

[James Shaw]

I got a call about a year ago from someone I had served in the Army with back in the mid 90's. He was now a recruiter and knew my feelings about serving with the military. He presented a really good package of benfits and a very genrous SRB. The problem was that I would have had to go in at E5 just like I got out. It has been a while but I actually considered it. I figured it up and the base pay for the weekend would have been about $300 dollars. After looking at the weekends I would be gone and the difference in my pay for the year I would have lost $10K a year. Me and my wife REALLY had a discussion about it. I even talked about trying to go back in as a 2LT to try and makeup for the money. My age (almost) 40 precluded from that. I still wish I could do it to this day but I wont make my family pay for my desire. I have served in the Navy and Army and with the CAP. That will have to be enough I guess!

[ZigZag911]

Being a non-combatant doesn't mean "no combat zone". It means the individual doesn't carry arms or actively engage in combat actions. Hearing a confession, or patching up a soldier on the battlefield are still combat roles, but not combatant roles.

You'd have to look up what the Air Force or DOD considers non-combat roles. But we wouldn't be permitted to deploy to a combat zone in any role.

That was pretty much my point....because we support the AF non-combat role, it seems unlikely we would be deployed to a combat zone, where even the efforts of unarmed non-combatant personnel support the work of the combatant members.

[Hawk200]

Being a non-combatant doesn't mean "no combat zone". It means the individual doesn't carry arms or actively engage in combat actions. Hearing a confession, or patching up a soldier on the battlefield are still combat roles, but not combatant roles.

You'd have to look up what the Air Force or DOD considers non-combat roles. But we wouldn't be permitted to deploy to a combat zone in any role.

That was pretty much my point....because we support the AF non-combat role, it seems unlikely we would be deployed to a combat zone, where even the efforts of unarmed non-combatant personnel support the work of the combatant members.

My apologies, I took it as a question rather than a point being made. Sorry to ruin it.

[ZigZag911]

My apologies, I took it as a question rather than a point being made. Sorry to ruin it.

Thanks, Hawk, but not necessary....I took no offense, just trying to be clear.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Delaney:

I'd have to check to be sure, but I think that civilians accompanying a US Armed Force in an overseas area are subject to the UCMJ.

[Stonewall]

Yes, that is true.  For instance, an AAFES employee in Iraq running the BX is subject to UCMJ.

[RiverAux]

The MDDF did not get "federalized" in any sense of the word when they went to Bosnia with the Air National Guard and neither did they when they went to Katrina and nor did the group now (or very recently) who were sent to an Indian Reservation in (South Dakota?) to help with medical stuff.  They did this under state orders. 

For more background, read the monograh on medical deployment teams at the SDF Publication Center:  http://www.sdfpc.org/sdfpc7.htm

[lordmonar]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

[RiverAux]

Very true.  However, they could ask for volunteers willing to do that or just about anything else.

[ddelaney103]

Delaney:

I'd have to check to be sure, but I think that civilians accompanying a US Armed Force in an overseas area are subject to the UCMJ.

True enough, but what constitutes a "lawful order" varies b/w military and civilian.  I can bear arms and defend myself, esp. against bandits and other armed non-military types, but a civilian can't be ordered into battle.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

Like anything else in CAP, it would be done by volunteers.  I'd volunteer.  I don't like my job anyway.

[Nomex Maximus]

Jim:

. . .

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time

. . .

So, where could you put bomb racks on a 172? Or perhaps We could carry some hellfire missiles. We'd have a mission pilot fly the airplane and a mission observer work the hellfire electronics...

[Al Sayre]

Hard points can (and have been) mounted on the wings just outboard of the struts.  While the Load capability is limited, a small rocket pod or 50 lb bomb could be easily attached.

[SarDragon]

Jim:

. . .

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time

. . .

So, where could you put bomb racks on a 172? Or perhaps We could carry some hellfire missiles. We'd have a mission pilot fly the airplane and a mission observer work the hellfire electronics...

I think anything in the CAP a/c fleet would be overweight with a HELLFIRE system installed (except maybe the GA-8).

Missile - 100 lb
Launcher - two rail version weighs 97 lb empty
Avionics - heavy. The Cobra NTS TSU requires a hoist, making it heavier than 200 lb, and the remainder of the boxes are an additional 100 lb or so. The fixed wing systems are similar in overall weight.

And my all-time favorite Q - who's going to pay for it?

[jpravain]

No, I would not go. I support our troops 100% but I do not support the war or the present political leadership. (opening a can of worms)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jim:

. . .

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time

. . .

So, where could you put bomb racks on a 172? Or perhaps We could carry some hellfire missiles. We'd have a mission pilot fly the airplane and a mission observer work the hellfire electronics...

The technology that permitted CAP to engage enemy submarines, namely diesel-electric submarine propulsion has gone the way of the leisure suit.

But, CAP has many valuable resources that could be brought to a battle.  All that would be needed is one little legislative change.

Example... flying Predators.  Our cadets and younger officers are experts in the video game technology used in flying them.  A Predator mission involves:  1.  Takeoff.  2.  Navigation by GPS, and 3.  Landing.  I've done that to go for a hamburger.  Why waste a skilled USAF pilot when a CAP pilot could do just as well?

[ZigZag911]

Much the same reason some HLS/CN aviation missions are going to state police, sheriff's departments, even ANG/NG units....job security!!!

Right now, as I understand it, USAF has more pilots than planes for them to fly....even with personnel cutbacks, there remains more pilots than they really know what to do with (or so I've been told).

There will be a terrific uproar if our unpaid volunteers replace paid professional aviators, military or civilian.

If we supplement their numbers -- where there may be a local need greater than assigned personnel can fulfill -- there we might be welcome.

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense economically.

At the same time I'm not advocating taking the bread off anyone's table!

Just setting forth the situation as I understand it.

[wingnut]

Actually flying Predators is very complicated, I have been told that there are several pilots involved with a preditor flight. One on take off locally, and one at Nellis AFB, the nellis people are actually contract pilots. Now with the support team on local site and Nellis there is a total of 15 people working or assigned to the flight. Crazy stuff for one 10 million dollar plane.

As for being called up to active duty. . . interesting situation, but if you read the fine line the draft age is 18 to 35, and prior military are being called back to active duty even after the had been in 5 years, the commitment is 7 years but that can be extended by the President ( doing that now) And if the Ball went up you could expect a majority of CAP members would serve proudly. things would have to be really bad for that to happen, Nuclear strike, Meteorite, Alien Invasion

Green Part being elected

[SAR-EMT1]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

[SARMedTech]

If they wanted to send non-combatant medics and corpsman, I would go. The only problem is that all the ways that are used to mark a non-combatant make us even better targets and there are few better ways to destroy unit moral than to "snipe" a corpsman.

[Ricochet13]

Just tell me where and when.  I'll be there.

[RiverAux]

To answer the question in the subject line -- While I could use my existing paid leave and could probably rearrange my work schedule for about a month, I couldn't do it for free beyond that time period and would need some federal or state legislation protecting my job while I was gone. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

If they wanted to send non-combatant medics and corpsman, I would go. The only problem is that all the ways that are used to mark a non-combatant make us even better targets and there are few better ways to destroy unit moral than to "snipe" a corpsman.

Unfortunately, the enemy does not respect the Laws of War.  That's why we call them "Unlawful Combatants" and deny them the rights of Prisoners of War.  They are not entitled to such rights.

But Navy hospital corpsmen have not worn the red cross insignia since Guadalcanal.  They don't even issue them.  I don't know what the Air Force's rules are.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

No, but in WWII CAP officers and NCO's were paid per diem living expenses.

[RiverAux]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

No, but in WWII CAP officers and NCO's were paid per diem living expenses.

Per diem don't pay the mortgage though....

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

What if they pay you the rate for an AF Officer holding the grade you have in CAP?

No, but in WWII CAP officers and NCO's were paid per diem living expenses.

Per diem don't pay the mortgage though....

This is true.  And this is why this discussion is either hypothetical, limited to short-duration tours, or both.

By that I mean there would be no reason a CAP chaplain could not go over on a C-9 and return with the load of wounded.  Our certified medics could also fill in for AF personnel the same way.  Nobody's going over for a full tour wearing ultramarine blue nametapes.

I'd look for missions over here though.  Why can't our lawyers help the AF lawyers writing wills for deploying troops?  How about using CAP personnel as aggressors/refugees in exercises?

[RiverAux]

Our certified medics could also fill in for AF personnel the same way.  Nobody's going over for a full tour wearing ultramarine blue nametapes.

Well, there probably aren't going to be many people who volunteer for a year and a half tour for no pay.  However, I bet a few of our retired folks might consider going for several months at a time.

However, as much as I am in favor of dramatically expanding (basically creating) a program for CAP augmentation of the AF, the reality is that we would be of more use back here in the US, pehaps backfilling for those that have been deployed.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

River:

You are correct.  I suggested that CAP establish a single person, attached to the personnel office at each and every AF base, as the CAP Augmentation Coordinator.  His duty would be to match base shortfalls with trained (or trainable) CAP officers or cadets.

[RiverAux]

Makes sense to me.  However, I would expand it to Air National Guard and Air Reserve units that may or may not actually be associated with a "real" Air Force Base.

[Viper QA]

As a member of both CAP & the USAF I don't see any deployed use for CAP. There are just too many variables involved for the DOD to even consider deploying non-military, uniformed, civilian personnel.

CAP members are best suited doing exactly what they are doing...ES, disaster relief, homeland security, & cadet training.

As far as arming our aircraft goes...I'm hoping that was a joke. There are laws prohibiting the arming of civilian aircraft (to include law enforcement). CAP aircraft are not military assets. They are property of CAP the corporation & not the USAF. Besides that I don't believe the C172 could carry the equipment necessary to even carry the Hellfire or Brimstone missile. Not to mention the classified software needed to aim & fire the missile.

[Nomex Maximus]

Would I go?

Are you ready for an extrememly politically incorrect answer?

If not go to another topic NOW.

Would I go?  Yes. BUT. . .

[[[edited/deleted by author. If you really wat to know my reservations, ask.]]]

[ZigZag911]

River:

You are correct.  I suggested that CAP establish a single person, attached to the personnel office at each and every AF base, as the CAP Augmentation Coordinator.  His duty would be to match base shortfalls with trained (or trainable) CAP officers or cadets.

The problem with this idea is it is logical, sensible, workable, efficient, and solves the problem!

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Arming our aircraft may sound like a joke, but I remember one incident where the military thought we were armed.   We  were on a SAREX where our assignment required us to enter restricted Military airspace.   We called the appropriate military authority and asked for the clearance.  The controller said they would have to check it out.  After a few minutes the controller came back on and in an excited voice said "Standby, whatever you do dont drop your ordinance".   After a good laugh we explained to him we were on a photo mission and would remain outside his airspace until confirmation could be obtained.

[Nomex Maximus]

For get the Hellfire missiles on the 172. I think the 172 could be modified to carry one or two of these:

http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/davyc.HTM

Just a thought.

--Nomex

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes, the "Davy Crockett."  Perhaps the dumbest thing ever designed by the Army.  I can picture a bunch of Field Artillery officers at the Fort Sill officers' club starting a happy hour joke about "Atomic hand grenades" and by closing time the Davy Crockett was sketched out on the cocktail napkins.

The first step in shooting a Davy Crockett was to dig a big hole.  The range of the Davy Crockett was such that if the shooters were not protected, they would kill as many of their own troops as the enemy.

And, while it would have been likely to stop an enemy advance, I would not recommend trying to occupy the area to the front and seize any terrain.  Not unless you want your kids to be born with one eye or something. 

[SAR-EMT1]

True, HOWEVER, it WOULD be light enough to be deployed on a 182 as a bomb. ... Now we just need to get that MOU with NORAD. 

... I think this would be the ultimate in HLS Border Security Missions. 

[SarDragon]

True, HOWEVER, it WOULD be light enough to be deployed on a 182 as a bomb. ... Now we just need to get that MOU with NORAD. 

... I think this would be the ultimate in HLS Border Security Missions. 

Since we are now talking about two weapons, which are you talking about above?

As for the HELLFIRE, it arms electronically after leaving the launcher, so using it as a bomb wouldn't work.

I wouldn't want to be within 25 miles of the Crocket when it explodes.

[SAR-EMT1]

True, HOWEVER, it WOULD be light enough to be deployed on a 182 as a bomb. ... Now we just need to get that MOU with NORAD. 

... I think this would be the ultimate in HLS Border Security Missions. 

Since we are now talking about two weapons, which are you talking about above?

As for the HELLFIRE, it arms electronically after leaving the launcher, so using it as a bomb wouldn't work.

I wouldn't want to be within 25 miles of the Crocket when it explodes.

The Crockett.   The only trick is to have some altitude when we drop the thing. Otherwise the Enola Gay would have been blown out of the sky at Hiroshima. True we dont fly as high as a B-29 Stratofortress BUT this is a smaller bomb.

A THIRD possible application: DRUG REDUCTION FLIGHTS