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Author Topic: CAC ribbons cords roles oh my  (Read 1736 times)
MrsRoe
Member

Posts: 61

« on: January 02, 2018, 06:26:47 PM »

Part1
My cadet is Group recorder. Per regs I read that she wears the white ribbon.

Per what sheís been told she wears white ribbon and red cord

If there were a cord it would be green per regs, correct.

Part2
Is she permitted to be squad rep AND group recorder?

If so she would wear.....ribbon and cord (of some color of some kind)

Thanks as always for your help.


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,954

« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2018, 06:39:56 PM »

Part1
My cadet is Group recorder. Per regs I read that she wears the white ribbon.

Per what sheís been told she wears white ribbon and red cord

If there were a cord it would be green per regs, correct.

The only approved cord for a Group rep is green, and it only worn by the primary
rep from the unit to the Group. Assistants do not wear cords.

The CAC ribbon is white, regardless of position or echelon. However it is not worn until after it has been awarded
by the Senior-member CAC facilitator after a successful term as CAC rep.

It is not worn automatically.

Part2
Is she permitted to be squad rep AND group recorder?

If so she would wear.....ribbon and cord (of some color of some kind)

Thanks as always for your help.

Yes - in fact she really can't be anything on the CAC unless she's first and foremost
a unit appointed representative.  Cadets are appointed by their Commander to
represent the unit, the CAC then elects the various positions during a meeting.

Same cord, same ribbon, same rules as above.

https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf
CAPR 39-3, Page 15
"j. Cadet Advisory Council Ribbon. Awarded to all primary members of each cadet
advisory council. The ribbon with appropriate device as indicated below is a permanent cadet
activity award. Additionally, a shoulder cord is worn as a means of identifying current CAC
members; however, it is worn only during the term of office. Senior members who served as CAC
members during their cadet tenure may continue to wear the ribbon.

(1) Group Level. Basic ribbon and green shoulder cord.
(2) Wing Level. Basic ribbon with bronze star and red shoulder cord.
(3) Region Level. Basic ribbon with silver star and blue shoulder cord.
(4) National Level. Basic ribbon with gold star and gold shoulder cord.
(5) Only the highest level star earned will be worn on the ribbon."
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wacapgh
Forum Regular

Posts: 196

« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 05:01:40 PM »

The new CAPR 60-1 (replacing CAPR 52-16) effective 1 February 2018 makes a few changes:

7.2.5. CAC Officers. The CAC will have a cadet chair and a vice chair and/or recorder. The echelon commander may appoint cadets to these positions or allow the council to fill them through elections.

7.2.6. Double-Service Discouraged. Because the CAC exists to provide cadets with advanced leadership opportunities, the program should operate so as to involve the maximum number of eligible cadets. Therefore, concurrent appointments to multiple CACs is discouraged. (Example: The wing chairperson should not concurrently serve as the wingís representative to the region.)


Under the new regulation, a cadet serving as a Squadron representative and at the same time as Group CAC Recorder would be "discouraged" to allow more cadets to be involved with the CAC activity.

As Eclipse posted, cadet wear of the cords and ribbon remains the same: Wear the cord only while serving, and the ribbon after it has been awarded after completing a year on the council. Administratively, it has changed only in that the authority to award the ribbon will be by the appropriate commander:

7.7. Awards. During their term of office, primary representatives and CAC officers may wear a shoulder cord (see Table 7.1). Shoulder cords must be of the same style and shade as that stocked for CAP by Vanguard. Upon successful completion of their term of office, primary representatives and CAC officers may wear the CAC ribbon, with the echelon commanderís approval.

A "term" is defined as:

7.2.4. Program Year. The CAC program year runs concurrent with CAPís fiscal year, 1 October through 30 September. For the sake of continuity, the outgoing cadet chair and vice chair should participate in the incoming councilís first meeting.

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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,954

« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 05:07:44 PM »

The new CAPR 60-1 (replacing CAPR 52-16) effective 1 February 2018 makes a few changes:

7.2.5. CAC Officers. The CAC will have a cadet chair and a vice chair and/or recorder. The echelon commander may appoint cadets to these positions or allow the council to fill them through elections.

7.2.6. Double-Service Discouraged. Because the CAC exists to provide cadets with advanced leadership opportunities, the program should operate so as to involve the maximum number of eligible cadets. Therefore, concurrent appointments to multiple CACs is discouraged. (Example: The wing chairperson should not concurrently serve as the wingís representative to the region.)


Under the new regulation, a cadet serving as a Squadron representative and at the same time as Group CAC Recorder would be "discouraged" to allow more cadets to be involved with the CAC activity.

That's not how I read that.

I think the intention is that the same cadets should not be on multiple CACs (i.e. Group, Wing, Region, NHQ), not that they can't hold jobs in the CAC.
That's been the historical issue.
(i.e. if you're the unit rep to the group, you can't be the unit rep to Wing, etc.), but to hold ajob at any echelon you
have to be an appointed rep first, you can just go there as be the recorder.

I've always thought that it made logical sense that the Chair at each level was the rep to the next one up,
in fact that's how many wings have operated historically, but I see now how that's problematic and
limiting because inevitably you wind up with a cadet who will be the rep, and maybe even the chair,
at multiple levels.

So I understand why NHQ wants the rep to the next level to not be from the lower level, it makes sense,
but it turns the CAC from a roll-up to bodies of separate scope.  More like...

County government (Group)
State Government (Wing)
(No idea how Region fits, and since they don't have cadets, per se, why they would still be needed)
Congress (NHQ CAC)

The bodies might interact on occasion, but are distinctly separate, have different things to address,
and have no specific allegiance to each other, which in a CAC context also makes sense.

Though saying that won't increase the number of cadets interested in CAC, which would probably need to double or triple/
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 05:17:31 PM by Eclipse » Logged


lordmonar
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Posts: 10,650

« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2018, 09:31:51 AM »

I think it is both.

Wing/group/region may appoint cadets to the three leadership roles or they may be elected from the squadron reps.   

Since the intent is to get as many cadets involved as possible.   If leadership elects from with in, then those cadets should be replaced by their squadron alternates and new squadron alternates should be appointed by the squadron commander.

I have not read the new 60-1 end to end yet.

Does it say if the wing rep to regional CAC has any function/voice/vote at the wing CAC?
Are they voting members?  Are they even encouraged to attend the wing CAC meetings?   

I can see some leadership challenges coming from this.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
darkmatter
Forum Regular

Posts: 158

« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2018, 03:33:13 PM »

Interesting, my wing has used the system of i for your chair you move up to represent at the next highest level I.E. regional. Did not know that has frowned upon
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MrsRoe
Member

Posts: 61

« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2018, 04:26:42 PM »

Iím wondering if the issue of having enough cadets involved will be an issue in regards to the duel position stance. For us we had no one in group chair vice chair or recorder role recently.


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wacapgh
Forum Regular

Posts: 196

« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2018, 04:36:45 PM »

7.2. Constitution.
 7.2.1. Allotment of Seats. Commanders may appoint one primary representative and one assistant to serve on the CAC at the next higher echelon.
   7.2.1.1. Region commanders appoint two Phase IV or Spaatz cadets.
   7.2.1.2. Wing commanders appoint two cadet officers.
   7.2.1.3. Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers. If the unit does not have qualified cadets available, the position(s) may remain vacant.


Group CACs are optional:

7.1. Purpose. Cadet Advisory Councils (CAC) will be established at the national, region and wing levels. Group commanders may establish CACs, with the wing commanderís approval.

If Group CACDs are authorized, do Group commanders appoint two cadets (7.2.1) to Wing? In Wings with a small number of Groups you would get a very small Wing CAC.

My reading of 7.2.1 is that a Wing commander may appoint any cadet officer, and is encouraged by 7.2.6 to not appoint a cadet who is currently serving in any position on a Wing or a Group CAC to allow as many cadets as possible to participate in the program.

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wacapgh
Forum Regular

Posts: 196

« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2018, 04:44:58 PM »

Interesting, my wing has used the system of i for your chair you move up to represent at the next highest level I.E. regional. Did not know that has frowned upon

Not under the current regulation, but it is a recommendation under the new 60-1. The Wing Chair concurrently serving as the Region Rep is specifically called out as an example in the reg:

7.2.6. Double-Service Discouraged. Because the CAC exists to provide cadets with advanced leadership opportunities, the program should operate so as to involve the maximum number of eligible cadets. Therefore, concurrent appointments to multiple CACs is discouraged. (Example: The wing chairperson should not concurrently serve as the wingís representative to the region.) [bold type added]

A former wing Chair or Vice Chair would be in my opinion, an ideal candidate to "move up" to Region if you have enough cadets available. If not you may have to double-up, so it's only "discouraged" not prohibited.
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lordmonar
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Posts: 10,650

« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2018, 03:17:45 PM »

It makes sense if you look at it this way.

Cadet NCO is appointed as a squadron Rep.  At the end of the tenure. The wing commander appoints the sitting wing chair (or some other cadet) to be the Wing Rep on the Regional CAC.  He also appoints the new wing CAC leadership from the current pool of Reps and alternates.

The same thing happens at each level all the way up to National CAC.

So a cadet's CAC career would be Squadron Rep to Group, Group Leadership, Group Rep to Wing, Wing Leadership, Wing Rep to Region, Region Leadership, Region Rep to National, National Leadership.

So....that's 3 National Leadership positions, 16 National Rep positions. 24 Regional Leadership positions, 104 Regional Rep positions, 156 Wing Leadership positions.   There are 1442 units according to CAP watch....if half of them have cadets that means 1442 cadets as squadron reps to either wing or group CACs.  Add the group leader ship and group reps to wing and that is a butt load of cadets learning how to do collective leadership and representations.   

All that needs to be added is language on what role the group/wing/region reps have at the next lower level.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2018, 04:18:26 PM »



I see what you're suggesting. That makes good sense.

I'd differ only in one respect: CAC isn't for C/NCOs (learning direct leadership). They need to be cadet officers to be involved with CAC, per the program (C/CMSGTs at an absolute minimum).


Good ideas you have there.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,954

« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2018, 10:26:54 PM »

I'd differ only in one respect: CAC isn't for C/NCOs (learning direct leadership). They need to be cadet officers to be involved with CAC, per the program (C/CMSGTs at an absolute minimum).

No such mandate exists, nor any specific requirement regarding grade.
A C/TSgt, being an NCO, could well serve on CAC.

CAPR 52-16, Page 29
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
"(3) Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers, a wing (or
group) representative and assistant. If the unit does not have cadet NCOs or officers available, the unit may
leave the position vacant.


CAPR 760-1, Page 32 Eff Feb 2018
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPR_601__Cadet_Program_Management__36D2A228D5925.pdf
"7.2.1.3. Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers. If the
unit does not have qualified cadets available, the position(s) may remain vacant."
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 02:39:02 AM by Eclipse » Logged


MrsRoe
Member

Posts: 61

« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2018, 02:24:09 PM »

SN
Does anyone have a standard pdf or doc that they use for minutes? TIA


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,092

« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2018, 09:22:30 PM »

SN
Does anyone have a standard pdf or doc that they use for minutes? TIA


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The TXWG CAC has a standard doc for minutes, agenda, and proposals. All of the group CACs have access to it on the wing CAC drive folder. If needed, your cadet can contact the the wing CAC chair using the information at http://www.texascadet.org/cac-representatives.html
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
MrsRoe
Member

Posts: 61

« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 12:10:57 AM »

SN
Does anyone have a standard pdf or doc that they use for minutes? TIA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The TXWG CAC has a standard doc for minutes, agenda, and proposals. All of the group CACs have access to it on the wing CAC drive folder. If needed, your cadet can contact the the wing CAC chair using the information at http://www.texascadet.org/cac-representatives.html

Apparently my kid knew this. Momfail.


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,092

« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 10:10:26 AM »

SN
Does anyone have a standard pdf or doc that they use for minutes? TIA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The TXWG CAC has a standard doc for minutes, agenda, and proposals. All of the group CACs have access to it on the wing CAC drive folder. If needed, your cadet can contact the the wing CAC chair using the information at http://www.texascadet.org/cac-representatives.html

Apparently my kid knew this. Momfail.


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#cadetwin

No problem.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 12:04:57 AM »

I'd differ only in one respect: CAC isn't for C/NCOs (learning direct leadership). They need to be cadet officers to be involved with CAC, per the program (C/CMSGTs at an absolute minimum).

No such mandate exists, nor any specific requirement regarding grade.
A C/TSgt, being an NCO, could well serve on CAC.

CAPR 52-16, Page 29
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
"(3) Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers, a wing (or
group) representative and assistant. If the unit does not have cadet NCOs or officers available, the unit may
leave the position vacant.


CAPR 760-1, Page 32 Eff Feb 2018
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPR_601__Cadet_Program_Management__36D2A228D5925.pdf
"7.2.1.3. Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers. If the
unit does not have qualified cadets available, the position(s) may remain vacant."


It is covered explicitly in the CAC documents (that CAC is a Phase III+ venue for cadet officers or at least C/CMSGTs) as previously covered exhaustively in other threads on CAC. The intent is clear: regardless of who commanders appoint, the activity itself is intended to foster indirect leadership in committee skills which are Phase appropriate for cadet officers, not for those cadets still mastering direct leadership as C/NCOs.

Ned has however indicated here that those pubs are under review along with every other item; if the new 60-1 (as the promulgating document for the CAPP pubs) is a leading indicator that the entire CAC program is being revised, that would be consistent. Until then, I maintain that CAC is as constructed by their guiding pubs, regardless of appointment authority.

Thanks, Eclipse, for the good reference catch. Standing by here to hear what if any reinvention is coming for CAC.  I wish NHQ would support the "Proving Grounds" concept, which appears to have fallen into disuse.


R/s
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