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Author Topic: In the event of a war: Does CAP play any role?  (Read 2754 times)
Starbird
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: NER-NH-056

« on: December 29, 2017, 10:02:00 AM »

Needless to say, we will never actually be dropping hand bombs out of planes onto submarines again, but based on all of the tension in the world right now, I think it would be interesting to explore why CAP’s function would be if, god forbid, a war were to break out that involved the United States.  As the Air Force AUX, would we take on a minor homeland support role, such helping with logistics? (We do have a massive fleet of vans), or something of the sort?  Prehaps helping to recruit for the Air Force?  Who knows, but I think it would be interesting to discuss.

Starhop
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,368
Unit: Classified

« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 10:29:20 AM »

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars. 
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Starbird
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: NER-NH-056

« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 10:39:34 AM »

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.
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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 908

« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 11:30:24 AM »

I would like to think that the easy answer is NO.  There are a huge number of reserve forces available for recall to active duty that could pick up slack in any areas that the military finds itself short on as far as actual primary mission requirements.  (technically every retired guy is in the retired reserve, and eligible for recall up until a certain point, certain specialty areas are even told, that you have a high chance of recall after "official" retirement)

One area that CAP could (very maybe) see in increased request for assistance to is domestic DoD support.  As DoD assets are used for their military mission they are less available to help with things like natural disasters (aka the national guard)  We saw this with the increase in NG units deployed to Afghanistan, specifically in FL.  One particular NG unit was supporting FLEMA post hurricane recon mission, (basically boots on the ground, in organic vehicles doing on site damage assessment, and communicating those reports and photo's directly back to the state EOC)  As that unit became deployed more, the mission went to other NG units, as those units increased their ops tempo they asked CAP if they could increase their personnel from air and C&C to comms, to actually just taking over the whole mission.  Think the same thing for other places where, in particular NG units, support local emergencies, as an instrumentality of the USAF, CAP could be asked to step up to support some of those needs.

That's likely the easy most likely scenario.  As far as the discussion there are some wide ranging ideas that could be discussed, mostly academic.  .  In that the reality of being able to come up with the capability to support a mission not already part of the "expectations"  would likely involve more time and money in developing the "plan" than the length of the "crisis" it would be solving.   (our government tends to be reactive to a crisis rather than proactive) The logical person in me says that's exactly why there should be such brain storming, so that when the "thing" happens, you just dust off the plan that has been sitting being minimally maintained, tweak it and you are ready to go in say less than 15 days...but the practical me, says that despite numerous examples out there available, no one in government often thinks this way.

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
abdsp51
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Posts: 2,368
Unit: Classified

« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 11:59:56 AM »

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

Afghanistan is part of the declared Global War on Terror.  Plus the Korean War is still ongoing as there was never a treaty signed between the nations involved. 
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darkmatter
Member

Posts: 80

« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 12:28:42 PM »

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?
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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 908

« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 12:40:14 PM »

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

I am not a master of the all the reg ins and outs, but I don't think I have ever seen that anywhere.  It would be interesting if it actually existed somewhere (even as a now rescinded capability, just from a historical/curiosity standpoint)

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
FW
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Posts: 2,157

« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 12:55:50 PM »

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

I am not a master of the all the reg ins and outs, but I don't think I have ever seen that anywhere.  It would be interesting if it actually existed somewhere (even as a now rescinded capability, just from a historical/curiosity standpoint)

MK

Interesting thought, however the answer is NO!!!!!!  Civil Air Patrol and it's members are NOT a part of the military in any way, shape or form.  We do serve as a "Civilian Auxiliary" when the SECAF authorizes us, but that is a far cry from pressing us into service.  That said, expanding our current efforts might be a possibility in the 6 or 7 minutes before the first bombs hit our cities...
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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 908

« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 01:34:34 PM »

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

I am not a master of the all the reg ins and outs, but I don't think I have ever seen that anywhere.  It would be interesting if it actually existed somewhere (even as a now rescinded capability, just from a historical/curiosity standpoint)

MK

Interesting thought, however the answer is NO!!!!!!  Civil Air Patrol and it's members are NOT a part of the military in any way, shape or form.  We do serve as a "Civilian Auxiliary" when the SECAF authorizes us, but that is a far cry from pressing us into service.  That said, expanding our current efforts might be a possibility in the 6 or 7 minutes before the first bombs hit our cities...

Though the options are wide and varied, I am guessing the OP was thinking something of a conventional nature that would involve a depletion of available domestic military forces. 
From an abstract discussion stand point, firstly I don't believe we would ever be that over committed, we still have many coalition and treaty partners that we wouldn't be dumping all available resources into an all out conflict, at least one that had the likelihood of remaining a conventional weapons battle space.  Secondly-We have established the effectiveness of unit rotations in an out to the conflict space over the years with Iraq and Afghanistan to believe that unless facing a multi front large scale conflict that seems to be the model to follow.  Third-Selective service:  we still register, the ability to bring folks in and train them is not complex, there are (if I recall correctly) abbreviated training cycles for both basic and technical training of military personnel during time of war.  Fourth- Many states have dedicated SDF's, that fall under the NG bureau that can be "activated" for state duty in the absence of the availability of the states national guard forces. That puts CAP at something like 5th tier at least, and likely only for a limited amount of time (ie until you complete 2-3 training cycles of "newly minted" military recruits that can take over)

Difficulties to this idea:  a-a large percentage of CAP's personnel are either under 18 or between 18-45, thus subject to military service.  b-Unless there was some plan in place to compensate them, they still have jobs and family obligations that would be prohibitive to even a short term (less than 30 days) "activation and deployment" to needed areas. (not to mention that if every other employee is getting conscripted or recalled, your boss is not likely to let you have time off for CAP time, even if you have the vacation time available)

So the most important question:  If as a group CAP wants to be proactive and offer this up as a force multiplier option to the DoD/USAF,  what missions does CAP do now, that with little to no modification, can be offered to DoD.  And what modifications to those missions should CAP begin to change/modify its work process to be able to meet that need if called upon (in particular that no other agency in the DoD reach can perform)

an interesting discussion topic, even if very (very) low on the likelihood of actually ever happening

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 997

« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 02:36:58 PM »

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

They are declared wars. Congress authorized military operations and the expenditures to fund them. That's part of the Article 1, Section 8 process in the Constitution.

The President/SecDef/SecAF could utilize CAP to provide a defensive/Homeland Security role in the event of a military conflict near or on U.S. soil/airspace/coastal waters. It's not impossible nor unfeasible. It's just a matter of "would it happen?" It really depends on what role the DoD would want CAP to operate under.


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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2017, 03:05:13 PM »

More interesting would be a war here on the mainland. An actual invasion. I imagine most civilian CAP members who have arms at homes, would be barricading their families with rifles pointed outside. Not many would be showing up even if CAP were to call. Family security would come first.

Same with the next civil war.

In either of those cases, CAP's only involvement may be a few rogue CAP pilots grabbing planes with full fuel for kamikaze flights into the enemy. LOL
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,721
Unit: of issue

« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 03:32:42 PM »

Having been in Civil Air Patrol during the US's armed conflicts (declared or otherwise) since 1981, I can really suggest that the answer to this is "somewhere between zero and none," or at least definitely nothing outside a domestic support role.

That said, I have seen it, but it is when the National Guard asked CAP for chaplain support for a unit's return home event. Our wing chaplain at the time went and basically did everything an active duty/National Guard chaplain would do in the same kind of event.

That was pretty much the only time I've seen a CAP member "fill in" for a service member in a capacity like that.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,197

« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2017, 03:47:14 PM »

((*cough*))...VSAF...((*cough*))
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:41:49 AM by SarDragon » Logged

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2017, 05:29:29 PM »

((*cough*))...VSAF...((*cough*))

It even has a brochure, albeit 2008:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/VSAF_007132D493071.pdf
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2017, 05:32:58 PM »

I would also say that in a small way the Syracuse Chase Mission works in that manner. Instead of tying up Air Force planes and pilots over the last 2 (?) years, CAP MPs and MOs have stepped in to fill those roles.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 05:36:11 PM by etodd » Logged
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,941

« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2017, 06:44:15 PM »

Well, seeing as how the AF can only use CAP in noncombat programs and missions (per 10USC Sec 9442 and 36USC Sec 40202), we will most definitely not be serving in any combat capacity.  However, that does leave open a whole lot of other activities.  SECAF could ship us off to Bagram AFB to peel potatoes if he wanted to cut back on contractor expenses. 

But, really, there is not likely to be any need now or in the future.  If the AF needs manpower, they are not going to turn to the mostly "seasoned" senior members of CAP, but rather just draft in some 18 year olds. 

However, until such a day comes, I have always thought that there are more ways that the AF could use CAP to provide direct support here at home, though it will never be a major CAP program since the distribution of AF bases ensures that only a small fraction of CAP members are in the right location to help, even if asked.  But, if we include the Air National Guard, then there is some more potential for use of CAP members. 

I don't know how far the CAPTalk archives go these days, but we had a few good threads on the subject, though I was one of the few promoting such ideas way back when.  Now, my CAP attitude is such that even if the opportunity arose locally, I'm not even sure that I would participate. 
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 704
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2017, 08:15:23 PM »

Remember those WWII movies, when the partisans killed some occupying troops, and they rounded up 10 villagers for each soldier who was killed, and shot them in the town square?

CAP members could find themselves being mourned in the town square.

Other than that, probably no direct wartime role.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,910

« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2017, 10:41:23 PM »

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

Afghanistan is part of the declared Global War on Terror.  Plus the Korean War is still ongoing as there was never a treaty signed between the nations involved.


The last time the United States fought in a declared war was World War II. For a war to be a declared war congress has to pass a bill declaring war.
That hasn't happened since December 1941.
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skyhawkcdr
Recruit

Posts: 7

« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2017, 11:26:50 PM »

Just think of the CAP roll in "RED DAWN"...Hey we can dream right???
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,910

« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2017, 02:11:07 AM »

Just think of the CAP roll in "RED DAWN"...Hey we can dream right???

You mean get rounded up with the rest of the police and paramilitary types?
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: In the event of a war: Does CAP play any role?
 


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