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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: My legacy level 2 (1st Lt) to level 3 (Capt) experience so far
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Author Topic: My legacy level 2 (1st Lt) to level 3 (Capt) experience so far  (Read 2241 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,197

« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2017, 04:49:18 PM »

Bottom line, only 7 of 39 members were willing to do some preliminary work and then attend an 8 hour training that did not require an overnight stay...

Between the hyperengaged and the apathetic, it's getting harder and harder to get people to these classes, and if the
first / only one they finally go to is a clinker (bad instructors, poor venue, too far, whatever) good
luck getting them to anything else.
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Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,116
Unit: SI

« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 04:49:31 PM »

One more set of comments on the offered PD courses. I'm one of those who is a PDO and have found that even holding an annual SLS in my corner of the state is a problem. There are six squadrons in my group. For this past year, I knew that there were 39 people who needed SLS for their Level 2. I organize a weekend SLS and place it so that it is a maximum of two hour's drive from the furthest squadron.

I barely get 8 to 10 people registered from the group. Since one or two will ALWAYS fail to show up, that places the whole thing at risk. Yes, I open it up to other Groups, and even other Wings --- Last one I organized we ended up with 11 students. One was from a different state, and thee others were from other groups.... and remember! ... this was for the "once a year" offering, meaning that without it you could not get your Level 2 for at least another 12 months (if that was the only thing remaining for you to do).

Yes, I advertised it to everyone, including personal emails to each member who required it.

Got support from the Wing level and had a high quality cadre of instructors. Wing even paid for the breakfast, lunch, coffee and snacks throughout the day.

Oh, and finally - We did a hybrid version where you took some online training during the month before the event and held the event in one single 8 hour day!


Bottom line, only 7 of 39 members were willing to do some preliminary work and then attend an 8 hour training that did not require an overnight stay...


[By the way, this is not supposed to be a whiny complaint, merely my sharing my experiences. Previous years worked out about the same...]

You should try flipping it over and creating a class waitlist where the class isn't scheduled until the interest is noted.
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 768

« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 08:23:41 PM »

One thing to point out is that being military or prior you can get for CAP PD Courses for PME completion. Not to mention that there are some aspects that can be completed online similar to many college courses.

SLS and CLC cannot be waived regardless of the amount of PME you have

Thanks

Alaric
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N6RVT
Member

Posts: 71
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 09:00:19 AM »

Same boat and time schedule, except I just need to get the 2 conferences out of the way. I'll therefore be going to 2 wing conferences in 2018, one in a neighboring wing to do external networking.

The two conferences held up my level 3 for - wait for it - 32 years
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Dwight J. Dutton, CPT USA (RET)
CAPT CAP, Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
Larry Mangum
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 652

« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2017, 10:45:48 AM »

One thing to point out is that being military or prior you can get for CAP PD Courses for PME completion. Not to mention that there are some aspects that can be completed online similar to many college courses.

While, prior service military service or current military service can be valuable to CAP, it can also be a stumbling block for new members. Especially, when new members decide that based upon their experiences, they already know the intricacies of operating in CAP and do not spend the time to learn how CAP operates.
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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 997

« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 04:32:26 PM »

I don't think the lessons are duplicated. I think it's, during the training itself, the conversations are duplicated.

I've taken SLS, CLC, and TLC (and even taught TLC). A lot of the conversations in all three of those are redundant, despite the differences in the subject matter and intent in the training curricula.

So I think it's less of repeating the same training and more of repeating the same experience, which falls to the individual(s) facilitating the classes. I'm a very heavy note taker in these classes, however, and the notes I have seem to be very different in respect to the course content.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,197

« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 06:07:28 PM »

I don't think the lessons are duplicated. I think it's, during the training itself, the conversations are duplicated.

I've taken SLS, CLC, and TLC (and even taught TLC). A lot of the conversations in all three of those are redundant, despite the differences in the subject matter and intent in the training curricula.

So I think it's less of repeating the same training and more of repeating the same experience, which falls to the individual(s) facilitating the classes. I'm a very heavy note taker in these classes, however, and the notes I have seem to be very different in respect to the course content.

Part of it is an assumption that members take these classes in advance of actually doing the jobs, and in different times
in their CAP careers, so their understanding and questions regarding the same subject should be from different perspectives.

Unfortunately a lot of members just cram them in a cluster to "get rid of them" meaning it sound repetitive, and may not even be
applicable.  This is due in large part to the inconsistency of both the quantity and quality of classes offered.
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If it doesn't make you money or doesn't make you happy, stop doing it.
skyhawkcdr
Recruit

Posts: 7

« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 07:16:20 PM »

I will be so happy to make Captain. I think 2 years to go. Why?? because its one rank higher then my first time around. Had to start at the bottom again
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MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 309

« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2017, 09:08:58 PM »

You should try flipping it over and creating a class waitlist where the class isn't scheduled until the interest is noted.

Thanks, Mordecai, I thought of doing just that. However, I think that in a volunteer organization it's important to offer the training needed in a timely basis and encourage those who need it to attend. If I adopt your suggestion, I am afraid it might be two or three years between sessions and it will hold back those who are dedicated and want to progress. I do not want to create a situation where I am contributing to someone deciding to leave the organization just because they cannot become a 1st Lt....

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 997

« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2017, 05:09:07 PM »

I don't think the lessons are duplicated. I think it's, during the training itself, the conversations are duplicated.

I've taken SLS, CLC, and TLC (and even taught TLC). A lot of the conversations in all three of those are redundant, despite the differences in the subject matter and intent in the training curricula.

So I think it's less of repeating the same training and more of repeating the same experience, which falls to the individual(s) facilitating the classes. I'm a very heavy note taker in these classes, however, and the notes I have seem to be very different in respect to the course content.

Part of it is an assumption that members take these classes in advance of actually doing the jobs, and in different times
in their CAP careers, so their understanding and questions regarding the same subject should be from different perspectives.

Unfortunately a lot of members just cram them in a cluster to "get rid of them" meaning it sound repetitive, and may not even be
applicable.  This is due in large part to the inconsistency of both the quantity and quality of classes offered.

That's why I give props with not being able to take TLC Intermediate over the same weekend as TLC Basic. The logic is "Go back to your unit and see if you learned anything from class that applies. Then come back for the next level course and let's talk about what we learned over the past 6 months." It does establish a timeline, or rather stretch the timeline out. But we have to get away from this mindset of cramming in everything, as you said, and trying to rank up as fast as possible. People who do that don't understand the subject matter from a practical side, no matter how many books they read.

I joined in 2015. I'll be at my 3-year mark in Spring. I'm in no rush. Am I "on time," as in on track with the minimum time in grade? Absolutely. I would have liked to have walked in the door and made Captain after two months. But that's not how it works, and it shouldn't work that way. Gotta be consistent in my philosophy: patience; learn the job.

I will say that while I find the discussions to often be on a similar line of thought from class to class, you'll always have different opinions and different examples. That's what makes the classes worth while to me, whether I'm sharing insight, asking for it, or just listening.
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,023

« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2018, 10:37:17 AM »

That's why I give props with not being able to take TLC Intermediate over the same weekend as TLC Basic. The logic is "Go back to your unit and see if you learned anything from class that applies. Then come back for the next level course and let's talk about what we learned over the past 6 months."

I know of no requirement that there be a "break" between TLC Basic and Intermediate, can you cite that?
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 997

« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2018, 12:07:01 PM »

That's why I give props with not being able to take TLC Intermediate over the same weekend as TLC Basic. The logic is "Go back to your unit and see if you learned anything from class that applies. Then come back for the next level course and let's talk about what we learned over the past 6 months."

I know of no requirement that there be a "break" between TLC Basic and Intermediate, can you cite that?

It's not a regulation. Our Wing, basically, won't permit you to during the sign-up process. If you take a TLC Basic on a Saturday, they do not want you to take the TLC Intermediate on the Sunday after; or they'll plan to run the classes at the same time (if different instructors are available).

The target of TLC Basic is someone new to the cadet program, whereas TLC Intermediate is targeted more to Commanders and CDC. Wings are required to host the courses annually; however, they can choose, at their discretion, to host them on separate weekends if preferred. That's right out of the Program Guide.

So I absolutely see why a Wing would encourage not taking Basic and Intermediate back-to-back. It all goes back to how fast people are jumping through the hoops and what they're actually learning along the way.
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Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 141
Unit: Missouri

« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2018, 12:08:07 PM »

That's why I give props with not being able to take TLC Intermediate over the same weekend as TLC Basic. The logic is "Go back to your unit and see if you learned anything from class that applies. Then come back for the next level course and let's talk about what we learned over the past 6 months."

I know of no requirement that there be a "break" between TLC Basic and Intermediate, can you cite that?

There is no restriction to taking the courses back to back in one weekend.  I personally have taught both TLC B & I in one weekend.
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Toad
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,023

« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2018, 12:19:45 PM »

That's why I give props with not being able to take TLC Intermediate over the same weekend as TLC Basic. The logic is "Go back to your unit and see if you learned anything from class that applies. Then come back for the next level course and let's talk about what we learned over the past 6 months."

I know of no requirement that there be a "break" between TLC Basic and Intermediate, can you cite that?

It's not a regulation. Our Wing, basically, won't permit you to during the sign-up process. If you take a TLC Basic on a Saturday, they do not want you to take the TLC Intermediate on the Sunday after; or they'll plan to run the classes at the same time (if different instructors are available).

The target of TLC Basic is someone new to the cadet program, whereas TLC Intermediate is targeted more to Commanders and CDC. Wings are required to host the courses annually; however, they can choose, at their discretion, to host them on separate weekends if preferred. That's right out of the Program Guide.

So I absolutely see why a Wing would encourage not taking Basic and Intermediate back-to-back. It all goes back to how fast people are jumping through the hoops and what they're actually learning along the way.

Ok, I can see that. I wouldn't do it that way because it seems pointless, but I can see why your wing might do it that way.

Quote
Wings are required to host the courses annually...

I know that this is the minimum required, but if a wing isn't doing TLC B&I at least semi-annually, they are doing their members a huge disservice. Texas does a minimum of 3 a year; 1 in the fall, 1 in the spring (both concurrent with our CTEP program) and one at the wing conference. The two done at CTEP are done just like the old TLC, a full weekend event; the one at conference you can sign up for either basic, intermediate, or both. We also have TLC held at the group level as needed to get people trained. It works well for us, just as I'm sure (or at least I really hope) your set up works well for the members of your wing.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 997

« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2018, 03:46:49 PM »

Wings are required to host the courses annually...

I know that this is the minimum required, but if a wing isn't doing TLC B&I at least semi-annually, they are doing their members a huge disservice. Texas does a minimum of 3 a year; 1 in the fall, 1 in the spring (both concurrent with our CTEP program) and one at the wing conference. The two done at CTEP are done just like the old TLC, a full weekend event; the one at conference you can sign up for either basic, intermediate, or both. We also have TLC held at the group level as needed to get people trained. It works well for us, just as I'm sure (or at least I really hope) your set up works well for the members of your wing.

Oh, zero disagreement there. And I absolutely think not hosting these courses semi-annually hurts because it's a loss for those who can't attend one.

That whole volunteerism thing comes with the fact that the incentives need to be there. And while we can't always make everything in the universe happen, professional development/training opportunities are key to advancement in this organization, and without them, we lose people.

I don't care much for the cancellation of classes when "there aren't enough sign-ups to make it worth while." False. Do with what you've got. You wanted a class of 10, but only 5 signed up? Run it with 5. I'd rather have 5 people who learned something (or at least had the opportunity to) than 10 people who didn't learn anything because they didn't go. Lack of training and retraining is a detriment.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 768

« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2018, 04:58:24 PM »

My wing has done classes with as few as 2 people.  They needed the training so we held the class.  We also hold both TLC courses on the same weekend so people can take both in one shot.  People's time is very valuable and I wouldn't want someone to give up half of 2 weekends just for this.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 997

« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2018, 05:28:18 PM »

One of my peeves was the possibility of cancelling cadet training classes. We try so hard to encourage cadets to not only attend cadet-specific training but to instruct as well, and then discuss dropping the training because there's not a big class. Oh well. Those that committed made the effort and dedicated themselves to either learn or help others learn (isn't that the core of the program?).

I think sometimes it ties in with the wearing of multiple hats. You get some people that want to oversee three different courses, and then you have an instructor issue, and now the person has to juggle around. It's becomes a problem because of the instructor, not the students; it's not a fault necessarily, but needs to be addressed early on in the planning (develop contingencies, or don't schedule what you can't cover).

I see some of these courses can be held at the squadron level with Wing approval as an open-invite event (with certain standards that have to go along). Maybe that's something to try out more often. If you can get the right trainers, why not run them locally? I hate seeing someone have to miss two years worth of training opportunities just because the training weekend literally didn't line up with their availability just by coincidence.
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DemonOps
Forum Regular

Posts: 109
Unit: GLR-MI-703

« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2018, 10:57:21 PM »

I guess I missed something about CAP over the years. Just exactly why do we "need" to advance in rank? I joined to serve with my piloting abilities as an emergency service aircrew member. Not to be a squadron historian, not to be the finance officer, not to be checking to see that there were property tags on every table and chair owned by the squadron, but to be part of an emergency service aircrew. Phony CAP rank is just that - phony CAP rank. I will put in all the hours needed to serve as an ES aircrew member - and help out with whatever support tasks are needed, but to advance in "rank"? I see not the point.

AWACS-Guy, 2dLt CAP (retired)


As I retire, Iím leaving an organization that ignored your experiences until you earned some grade.  On a personal level I believe a lot of training can be achieved via online. On a corporate level, the new requirements for promotion will make for better leaders; maybe.  Still, we are a volunteer force. Better use of online resources would help.
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP
GLR-MI-703 West Michigan Group
Historian and Administration Officer
Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: My legacy level 2 (1st Lt) to level 3 (Capt) experience so far
 


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