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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Are drill teams now a thing of the past?
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Author Topic: Are drill teams now a thing of the past?  (Read 5765 times)
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,470

« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2017, 01:19:55 PM »

As mentioned above, the biggest issue is the dedication of both cadets and senior members to make this happen. It's not a small undertaking.

The secondary issue is the fact that not everyone is interested in perfecting drill and ceremony for competition standards. Most don't see it as "a big deal."

And a major point, that I've seen noted several times here already, is the fact that the dominant arm of the CAP Cadet Program isn't drill. The leadership aspect of the program, intermixed with STEM, is the driving force for cadet training. Drill brings in a degree of self-discipline and professionalism, but it's not the core of the program.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2017, 01:28:50 PM »

Drill brings in a degree of self-discipline and professionalism, but it's not the core of the program.

Put that on a T-Shirt.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2017, 07:02:46 PM »

From the perspective of age it appears that the "warrior" ethos has changed.

The three drill teams I have been associated with (All Regional competitors, two in the 70s and one in the 90s) had cadets who wanted to seriously compete. My 70s squadron was in East Los Angeles - poverty was the rule, we had to raise funds to do what we did. And we did.

The 90s team was North Idaho and those kids were serious about winning. (And as adults, they keep winning. Odd that, no?)

Warriors win. I hope we never lose that ethos.

(BTW I see similar spirit in today's CyberPatriot team locally, so I remain ever the bright eyed optimist!)
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etodd
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Posts: 1,247

« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2017, 10:46:13 PM »

Whenever I invite a kid to come visit CAP for the first time, I always make sure its NOT on Drill Night. They don't come back. I prefer to get them to come on Aerospace night or similar, as their first exposure.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2017, 10:54:13 PM »

Seriously?

What does drill have to do with the "warrior ethos", or for that matter drill team coaches that make
some sports parents looks tame.

NCC isn't about "winning".  It literally isn't, and those that made it about "winning" are
the ones who wound up wrecking it.

Also, you can't compare anything form the 70's to today, especially CAP.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2017, 11:39:06 PM »

Also, you can't compare anything form the 70's to today, especially CAP.
Bingo.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2017, 11:52:36 PM »

NCC isn't about "winning".  It literally isn't, and those that made it about "winning" are the ones who wound up wrecking it.
Of course.

Quote
“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2017, 12:58:56 AM »

“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943

This quote has nothing to do with NCC.
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PHall
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Posts: 6,258

« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2017, 01:46:46 AM »

Maybe this might be a little more on point.

From the California Wing Cadet Programs Encampment SOP.

12.3  THE VALUE OF DRILL AND CEREMONIES
On the drill field the individual learns to participate as a member of a team, to appreciate the need for discipline,
that is to respond to authority, to follow orders promptly and precisely and to recognize the effects of their actions
on the group as a whole. Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2017, 11:02:19 AM »

Maybe this might be a little more on point.

From the California Wing Cadet Programs Encampment SOP.

12.3  THE VALUE OF DRILL AND CEREMONIES
On the drill field the individual learns to participate as a member of a team, to appreciate the need for discipline,
that is to respond to authority, to follow orders promptly and precisely and to recognize the effects of their actions
on the group as a whole. Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership.

That is the real value of drill but unless that information is passed on to those being taught drill, they just think they are being turned into mindless robots.
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arajca
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Posts: 4,300

« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2017, 11:18:22 AM »

Maybe this might be a little more on point.

From the California Wing Cadet Programs Encampment SOP.

12.3  THE VALUE OF DRILL AND CEREMONIES
On the drill field the individual learns to participate as a member of a team, to appreciate the need for discipline,
that is to respond to authority, to follow orders promptly and precisely and to recognize the effects of their actions
on the group as a whole. Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership.

However, as with most things, it can be overdone. When DRILL becomes the unit's sole mission due to prepping for NCC, they have failed. I have seen more than once, a unit spending six - eight months preparing for the NCC to exclusion of all else. The only testing that got done was for drill team members to avoid taking the staff away from the NCC prep for long periods.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,074

« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2017, 12:47:14 PM »

+1 on Phalls's quote and the above.

And the same can be said for ES, with cadets focusing on that above all else to the
detriment of their progression.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2017, 01:32:04 PM »

“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943

This quote has nothing to do with NCC.
Except that it really does, or at least should. Part of the NCC is to help bring out the pursuit of excellence and that starts with "correcting small violations and  in enforcing proper conduct ..."
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2017, 02:13:45 PM »

“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943

This quote has nothing to do with NCC.
Except that it really does, or at least should. Part of the NCC is to help bring out the pursuit of excellence and that starts with "correcting small violations and  in enforcing proper conduct ..."

The context of that quote had nothing to do with competition, nor turning uniforms into jumpsuits, it was
about not allowing troops to slack off during times of war because that lack of discipline can be dangerous.

Few would argue that the intent of the NCC was to show cadets at their most practiced best, its execution
was anything but that as it stressed skills, actions, and behaviors that were unrelated to the Cadet Program,
and in some cases were arguably in opposition to the core values.



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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2017, 04:14:38 PM »

The context of that quote had nothing to do with competition, nor turning uniforms into jumpsuits, it was
about not allowing troops to slack off during times of war because that lack of discipline can be dangerous.
You ignore the reality that war is the ultimate competition.
Few would argue that the intent of the NCC was to show cadets at their most practiced best,...
All three that I participated in did exactly that.
its execution  was anything but that as it stressed skills, actions, and behaviors that were unrelated to the Cadet Program,
I have no clue what "skills, actions, and behaviors that were unrelated to the Cadet Program" you refer to, again in all three years I was involved that simply was not true.
...and in some cases were arguably in opposition to the core values.
Again, not anything I saw was in opposition to the core values. YMMV.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2017, 04:45:13 PM »

And that's the issue - nothing you saw, and presumably from a cadet perspective.

You asked why it got shut down paused, that's why.

And please, you can save the warrior ethos stuff in a CAP context, it's wholly inappropriate for
the aims of the CP. That's the stuff that causes problems.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2017, 04:54:45 PM »

And that's the issue - nothing you saw, and presumably from a cadet perspective.
Nope. Twice as a cadet, once as a senior member.
And please, you can save the warrior ethos stuff in a CAP context, it's wholly inappropriate for the aims of the CP. That's the stuff that causes problems.
If that is the case, very sad. But since close to 10% of the USAFA is made up of former cadets, I doubt you are right.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2017, 05:12:46 PM »

http://www.squadron904.com/warrior_knowledge

"Warrior Knowledge"

Q.E.D.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2017, 05:13:38 PM »

http://mdwg.cap.gov/index.php/a7c-cadet-programs/warrior-challenge/

Maryland Wing is hosting a Warrior Challenge at Gunpowder Military Reservation on Notchcliff Road in Glen Arm, MD, from 22-24 Sept 2017. The MDWG Warrior Challenge is a fun activity that reinforces the principles of leadership, teamwork & problem solving while at the same time allowing cadets to interact with cadets from around the wing. Teams will be determined upon arrival at Gunpowder so that each group is diversified containing cadets from multiple squadrons and various CAP grades.

Again, Q.E.D.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,571
Unit: Classified

« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2017, 05:25:29 PM »

Eclipse.  There is nothing wrong with a "warrior ethos" all things in moderation.  I can tell you when I was a cadet drill was a big part of the experience.  Now I can agree with you that it does not need to be all encompassing, but drill done right and nailed down works wonders.

I never participated in NCC but I did participate in drill comps all 3 years I was in JROTC and let me tell you they start practice early and go long.  My team would practice 2 hrs 2-3 times a week after school and the  we would hold a weekend practice overnight. 

The month of the event we wen 2-3 days early for more practice and fine tuning. We didn't have tailored uniforms but we went to win and win we did. 

Now maybe a revision was needed I can't say but the wonders that can be worked from a group who have things down in this case D&C will shock you.   

In the pro realm most companies have some sort of team building fundementals they practice, practice some more and finally practice more. 

All things in moderation.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Are drill teams now a thing of the past?
 


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