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Author Topic: Are drill teams now a thing of the past?  (Read 5381 times)
OldGuy
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« on: December 21, 2017, 11:01:25 PM »

As I re-engage, I learn that some things never change and others do.

As I read CAPP 52-4 I do not see anything regards an actual drill routine or drill team competition.

Am I missing something, or has the drill team competition gone away?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 11:14:03 PM »

Yes. Its essentially gone.

About 4 years ago the NCC was shut down for a number of reasons. It's new, struggling form is for color guards.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 11:22:38 PM »

Yes. Its essentially gone.

About 4 years ago the NCC was shut down for a number of reasons. It's new, struggling form is for color guards.
That makes me sad.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 11:32:28 PM »

That makes me sad.

As it did many others, it also had a decidedly opposite effect on a non-trivial number of members.
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darkmatter
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 11:33:42 PM »

So that make the NCC ribbon and drill teams obsolete. That's sad news. that's one of those thing I should I could have done as a cadet
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OldGuy
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 11:45:00 PM »

That makes me sad.

As it did many others, it also had a decidedly opposite effect on a non-trivial number of members.
What were the issues?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2017, 12:41:20 AM »

So that make the NCC ribbon and drill teams obsolete. That's sad news. that's one of those thing I should I could have done as a cadet

Not obsolete, different.

https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/activities/national_cadet_competition/



It's now focused on skills and knowledge that are actually useful to cadet life.  However for many of the same reasons
as before the "pause", interest is very minimal in many wings.
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darkmatter
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2017, 06:48:04 AM »

Thanks I'll definitely be dig more into this and possible bring it up To see if any cadet might be interested
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FW
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 09:52:11 AM »

That makes me sad.

As it did many others, it also had a decidedly opposite effect on a non-trivial number of members.
What were the issues?

Lack of widespread participation was the main issue.  If I remember correctly, there wasn't a NCC in 2016.  The revamped competition format will,  hopefully increase interest, and make the NCC a real competition.
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Toad1168
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 09:56:30 AM »

Let me start by saying I am a former cadet who competed at the Wing level under the old drill team format.  Now as a senior member, I have taken a team to the NCC under the new format. 

The old format allowed for a display of precision of drill that highlighted only one small aspect of cadet life.  It was not representative of the program and all facets of cadet life.  While I was one that loved and excelled at the paramilitary and leadership side of the program, the old format sidelined those cadets who did not embrace that.

The new format covers all aspects of the program.  A team is required to have cadets that can excel in all events.  From drill, to academics, fitness, and stem.  Personally, I saw where this was the downfall of some teams and it seemed it created animosity from some escorts. 

While I agree that new is not always better, IMHO, this change was needed and better represents all cadets.

I'm not sure that non-participation from many wings is a result of the format change or lack of interest from cadets.  I feel that it is more on senior members who either cannot or will not devote the time required for an undertaking of this magnitude.  It is also incumbent upon Wing Directors of Cadet Programs to create the excitement and recruit squadrons to put together teams. 

Just my two cents and humble opinion.
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Toad
darkmatter
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 11:17:54 AM »

I'm not sure that non-participation from many wings is a result of the format change or lack of interest from cadets.  I feel that it is more on senior members who either cannot or will not devote the time required for an undertaking of this magnitude.  It is also incumbent upon Wing Directors of Cadet Programs to create the excitement and recruit squadrons to put together teams.

Well I can tell you in my wing when I too was a cadet we never knew of the NCC (old format) we barely have held color guard compitition. Now I'm not hating on my wing I think over all we have a great cadet programs but there are areas were we can do better like making sure we attemp to hold a color guard and NCC every year or so weather or not cadets partake that's up to them
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OldGuy
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2017, 11:22:01 AM »

Thanks I'll definitely be dig more into this and possible bring it up To see if any cadet might be interested

They have a window of time to roar through Group, Wing and Region - if interest is as low as it sounds. They will think themselves "not ready" but with positive encouragement and leadership you could be part of a National Championship team. (Although the format is still a tad odd to me, I will get used to it, I'm sure.)
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kwe1009
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2017, 11:32:54 AM »

The new format certainly requires a more well-rounded cadet and takes away a lot of the influence that Senior Members and parents had in determining the winner.  There were teams that hired professionals to teach drill and design the innovative drill routines.  Not to mention the hundreds or thousands of dollars that some team spent on custom tailored uniforms that were put together and ironed by adults.

This new format eliminates the bulk of that but there still leaves a lot to be desired in the execution phase.  I attended NCC this year as a spectator and was very surprised at how some rules were simply thrown out which gave an obvious advantage to certain teams.  These changes were made days or even hours before the event so the other teams had little or no time to adjust.  We have a program in place that should be followed to the letter unless there is a safety concern.  Getting rid of an event because one team doesn't have a member that qualifies is the fault of that team and only that team should have to deal with the consequences.

I also was part of a Region even where they had cadets from a team that lost their Wing event serving as judges.  Somehow a team that let the flag hit the ground (very obviously and I could tell that the judges saw it) won first place in that particular event. 
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darkmatter
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 12:06:14 PM »

I've seen things like that happen before it's always sad to see or hear poeple cheat
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Toad1168
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2017, 12:54:43 PM »

I was amazed at how cutthroat some of the escorts were. It was obvious that some were so focused on winning, that the spirit and comraderie of the event was lost. Compete, yes. But the cadets must view it as a fun and challenging event. Some of the cadets will only have this chance once in their careers. It’s our job as senior members to ensure they get the most out of it.

I did not realize an event was thrown out. I wasn’t privy to that.
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Toad
kwe1009
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2017, 02:48:02 PM »

I was amazed at how cutthroat some of the escorts were. It was obvious that some were so focused on winning, that the spirit and comraderie of the event was lost. Compete, yes. But the cadets must view it as a fun and challenging event. Some of the cadets will only have this chance once in their careers. It’s our job as senior members to ensure they get the most out of it.

I did not realize an event was thrown out. I wasn’t privy to that.

The new-comer Jeopardy.  One team did not have a cadet who had been in CAP less than 24 months so they combined the 2 Jeopardy events into one and had teams.  They also didn't allow competitors in that event to "buzz in" early.  They had to wait until the entire question was read.

The rules are written pretty well so there should not be a need to "adjust" them, especially on the fly like that.  The team that did not have a member who had been in CAP less than 24 months should have know the rules (they have been published for years now) and knew the consequences of not having an eligible member.

If I remember correctly they also didn't do one of the speech events.

I took a team to NCC under the old format a few years ago and it was a great experience for me and the cadets.  There were a few escorts and cadets who were not very friendly but most were.  The dinner before the awards ceremony was a fun event with most cadets mingling with others and trading patches and other trinkets.  I really didn't see that at this past year's event.  It did not seem like the event staff did anything to try and promote cadets intermingling. 

Hopefully this year's event will be run "by the book."  If you follow the written guidance you keep complaints and appearances of favoritism to a minimum.
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Fubar
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2017, 03:35:33 PM »

I feel that it is more on senior members who either cannot or will not devote the time required for an undertaking of this magnitude.  It is also incumbent upon Wing Directors of Cadet Programs to create the excitement and recruit squadrons to put together teams.

And there's your problem. Getting someone to accept an extraordinarily time-intensive job that only benefits a few cadets out of the squadron is a really hard sell. DCPs have no incentives to provide to get units interested, other than you'll put in tons of time and if you win, you also gets to spend more time and now significant cash to travel to the region competition. Win there and it's a rinse and repeat deal.

I do think the new program was a valiant effort to increase the number of cadets who could participate, but it still comes down to time and money and most folks don't have an abundance of either. It might be time to re-evaluate again because unfortunately, the new format isn't getting the participant numbers either.

Perhaps instead of a competition, NHQ could host a NCSA that the interested cadets we have throughout the country could spend a week training on NCC like events and have a final competition on the last day. I'm not sure there are enough interested cadets nationwide to fill this type of NCSA (without offering some sort of goofy hat or uniform bling), but it would be easier than browbeating squadrons and wings to try and field teams.
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Toad1168
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2017, 03:57:07 PM »

The cost really was negligible.  We were able to get funding from both Wing and Region, once it was determined we were going to NCC.  Travel, food, and lodging were covered by National at the NCC.

The time commitment is the key.  You need a couple of very motivated CP officers to attempt this.  Both I and the squadron commander are former cadets, so this was fun for us.  We leaned on a few other senior members for assistance and one of the USAF recruiters in our area assisted with the color guard and uniform part. 

The funny thing about our team was we started it just to try.  To see what it was about and then to go to Wing in 2018 and really compete.  We started with five cadets.  Our squadron has 45, but there just wasn't the interest.  I browbeat the sixth into joining the team on the day of the Wing competition.  Once we won Wing and then advanced through Region, I had a ton of cadets that wanted to do it. 

Our team did very well for first timers.  Two second place trophies and the Team Spirit award.  We were beyond ecstatic.  Yes, we have already begun the training for 2018.

I don't agree with a NCSA with a competition at the end.  The NCC is a long standing tradition and to go to it is amazing.  The staff at the NCC was very friendly and professional and they actually did push to make sure cadets mingled.  I think some of the problem was that some teams were so focused on winning that they did not know how or were not allowed to relax.  Once again, it's not all about winning.

I agree that events should not be changed because someone did not read the rules prior.  If you're unable to compete because you don't meet the requirements, then take the point penalty and move on.  That is on the escorts.  Its our job to make sure the team is set up correctly to give them the best possible chance.

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Toad
CAPLTC
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2017, 12:32:14 PM »

The cost really was negligible.  We were able to get funding from both Wing and Region, once it was determined we were going to NCC.  Travel, food, and lodging were covered by National at the NCC.

The time commitment is the key.  You need a couple of very motivated CP officers to attempt this.  Both I and the squadron commander are former cadets, so this was fun for us.  We leaned on a few other senior members for assistance and one of the USAF recruiters in our area assisted with the color guard and uniform part. 

The funny thing about our team was we started it just to try.  To see what it was about and then to go to Wing in 2018 and really compete.  We started with five cadets.  Our squadron has 45, but there just wasn't the interest.  I browbeat the sixth into joining the team on the day of the Wing competition.  Once we won Wing and then advanced through Region, I had a ton of cadets that wanted to do it. 

Our team did very well for first timers.  Two second place trophies and the Team Spirit award.  We were beyond ecstatic.  Yes, we have already begun the training for 2018.

I don't agree with a NCSA with a competition at the end.  The NCC is a long standing tradition and to go to it is amazing.  The staff at the NCC was very friendly and professional and they actually did push to make sure cadets mingled.  I think some of the problem was that some teams were so focused on winning that they did not know how or were not allowed to relax.  Once again, it's not all about winning.

I agree that events should not be changed because someone did not read the rules prior.  If you're unable to compete because you don't meet the requirements, then take the point penalty and move on.  That is on the escorts.  Its our job to make sure the team is set up correctly to give them the best possible chance.

Good discussion.
I participated in the early 1990s.
Agree with every point presented.
My team was comprised, entirely, of cadets who were also high school AFJROTC members from the same school.
Basically, our team was our AFJROTC honor guard team. We kicked $%^! at precision drill etc etc because we practiced 5 days/week before class...
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2017, 12:42:12 PM »

The fact that Wing and / or Region covered the cost doesn't make it "negligible", it just means
your team didn't have to pay it or you didn't see the bill. Some wings get state appropriations,
have deep pocket donors, or other revenue streams others don't have access to.

I'm personally aware of drill teams that had annual budgets that exceeded some encampments.
Those expenses included custom-tailored uniforms that were more jumpsuits / costumes then uniforms,
sports coaches, and various related and ridiculous expenditures.

While, in some cases, all but removing these same cadets from general participation in unit and
other activities because "we have to practice", while engendering an undeserved elitism which caused
further unintended consequences. These wings were referred to, deservedly, as "checkbook" teams,
and no one is happier to see them gone then me.

The cadet program's current level of expectation of engagement eats all but the very last of any "extra"
time a cadet has, coupled with the general lack of manpower and "spare" cadets, means that participation in
these ancillary activities is generally to the detriment of where these cadets and seniors are actually needed -
namely unit activities, encampments, and NCSAs.

Having cadets dressed in their finery, marching in a tight square looks great on YouTube, but these days
unless an activity serves the greater program in a S-E-E manner, the organizaiton can ill afford it, either from
a financial or calendar perspective.

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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2017, 01:19:55 PM »

As mentioned above, the biggest issue is the dedication of both cadets and senior members to make this happen. It's not a small undertaking.

The secondary issue is the fact that not everyone is interested in perfecting drill and ceremony for competition standards. Most don't see it as "a big deal."

And a major point, that I've seen noted several times here already, is the fact that the dominant arm of the CAP Cadet Program isn't drill. The leadership aspect of the program, intermixed with STEM, is the driving force for cadet training. Drill brings in a degree of self-discipline and professionalism, but it's not the core of the program.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2017, 01:28:50 PM »

Drill brings in a degree of self-discipline and professionalism, but it's not the core of the program.

Put that on a T-Shirt.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2017, 07:02:46 PM »

From the perspective of age it appears that the "warrior" ethos has changed.

The three drill teams I have been associated with (All Regional competitors, two in the 70s and one in the 90s) had cadets who wanted to seriously compete. My 70s squadron was in East Los Angeles - poverty was the rule, we had to raise funds to do what we did. And we did.

The 90s team was North Idaho and those kids were serious about winning. (And as adults, they keep winning. Odd that, no?)

Warriors win. I hope we never lose that ethos.

(BTW I see similar spirit in today's CyberPatriot team locally, so I remain ever the bright eyed optimist!)
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etodd
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2017, 10:46:13 PM »

Whenever I invite a kid to come visit CAP for the first time, I always make sure its NOT on Drill Night. They don't come back. I prefer to get them to come on Aerospace night or similar, as their first exposure.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2017, 10:54:13 PM »

Seriously?

What does drill have to do with the "warrior ethos", or for that matter drill team coaches that make
some sports parents looks tame.

NCC isn't about "winning".  It literally isn't, and those that made it about "winning" are
the ones who wound up wrecking it.

Also, you can't compare anything form the 70's to today, especially CAP.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2017, 11:39:06 PM »

Also, you can't compare anything form the 70's to today, especially CAP.
Bingo.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2017, 11:52:36 PM »

NCC isn't about "winning".  It literally isn't, and those that made it about "winning" are the ones who wound up wrecking it.
Of course.

Quote
“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943
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Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2017, 12:58:56 AM »

“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943

This quote has nothing to do with NCC.
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PHall
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2017, 01:46:46 AM »

Maybe this might be a little more on point.

From the California Wing Cadet Programs Encampment SOP.

12.3  THE VALUE OF DRILL AND CEREMONIES
On the drill field the individual learns to participate as a member of a team, to appreciate the need for discipline,
that is to respond to authority, to follow orders promptly and precisely and to recognize the effects of their actions
on the group as a whole. Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2017, 11:02:19 AM »

Maybe this might be a little more on point.

From the California Wing Cadet Programs Encampment SOP.

12.3  THE VALUE OF DRILL AND CEREMONIES
On the drill field the individual learns to participate as a member of a team, to appreciate the need for discipline,
that is to respond to authority, to follow orders promptly and precisely and to recognize the effects of their actions
on the group as a whole. Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership.

That is the real value of drill but unless that information is passed on to those being taught drill, they just think they are being turned into mindless robots.
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arajca
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2017, 11:18:22 AM »

Maybe this might be a little more on point.

From the California Wing Cadet Programs Encampment SOP.

12.3  THE VALUE OF DRILL AND CEREMONIES
On the drill field the individual learns to participate as a member of a team, to appreciate the need for discipline,
that is to respond to authority, to follow orders promptly and precisely and to recognize the effects of their actions
on the group as a whole. Learning to follow is the beginning of leadership.

However, as with most things, it can be overdone. When DRILL becomes the unit's sole mission due to prepping for NCC, they have failed. I have seen more than once, a unit spending six - eight months preparing for the NCC to exclusion of all else. The only testing that got done was for drill team members to avoid taking the staff away from the NCC prep for long periods.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2017, 12:47:14 PM »

+1 on Phalls's quote and the above.

And the same can be said for ES, with cadets focusing on that above all else to the
detriment of their progression.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2017, 01:32:04 PM »

“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943

This quote has nothing to do with NCC.
Except that it really does, or at least should. Part of the NCC is to help bring out the pursuit of excellence and that starts with "correcting small violations and  in enforcing proper conduct ..."
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Eclipse
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2017, 02:13:45 PM »

“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”
– General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943

This quote has nothing to do with NCC.
Except that it really does, or at least should. Part of the NCC is to help bring out the pursuit of excellence and that starts with "correcting small violations and  in enforcing proper conduct ..."

The context of that quote had nothing to do with competition, nor turning uniforms into jumpsuits, it was
about not allowing troops to slack off during times of war because that lack of discipline can be dangerous.

Few would argue that the intent of the NCC was to show cadets at their most practiced best, its execution
was anything but that as it stressed skills, actions, and behaviors that were unrelated to the Cadet Program,
and in some cases were arguably in opposition to the core values.



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OldGuy
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2017, 04:14:38 PM »

The context of that quote had nothing to do with competition, nor turning uniforms into jumpsuits, it was
about not allowing troops to slack off during times of war because that lack of discipline can be dangerous.
You ignore the reality that war is the ultimate competition.
Few would argue that the intent of the NCC was to show cadets at their most practiced best,...
All three that I participated in did exactly that.
its execution  was anything but that as it stressed skills, actions, and behaviors that were unrelated to the Cadet Program,
I have no clue what "skills, actions, and behaviors that were unrelated to the Cadet Program" you refer to, again in all three years I was involved that simply was not true.
...and in some cases were arguably in opposition to the core values.
Again, not anything I saw was in opposition to the core values. YMMV.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2017, 04:45:13 PM »

And that's the issue - nothing you saw, and presumably from a cadet perspective.

You asked why it got shut down paused, that's why.

And please, you can save the warrior ethos stuff in a CAP context, it's wholly inappropriate for
the aims of the CP. That's the stuff that causes problems.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2017, 04:54:45 PM »

And that's the issue - nothing you saw, and presumably from a cadet perspective.
Nope. Twice as a cadet, once as a senior member.
And please, you can save the warrior ethos stuff in a CAP context, it's wholly inappropriate for the aims of the CP. That's the stuff that causes problems.
If that is the case, very sad. But since close to 10% of the USAFA is made up of former cadets, I doubt you are right.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2017, 05:12:46 PM »

http://www.squadron904.com/warrior_knowledge

"Warrior Knowledge"

Q.E.D.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2017, 05:13:38 PM »

http://mdwg.cap.gov/index.php/a7c-cadet-programs/warrior-challenge/

Maryland Wing is hosting a Warrior Challenge at Gunpowder Military Reservation on Notchcliff Road in Glen Arm, MD, from 22-24 Sept 2017. The MDWG Warrior Challenge is a fun activity that reinforces the principles of leadership, teamwork & problem solving while at the same time allowing cadets to interact with cadets from around the wing. Teams will be determined upon arrival at Gunpowder so that each group is diversified containing cadets from multiple squadrons and various CAP grades.

Again, Q.E.D.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2017, 05:25:29 PM »

Eclipse.  There is nothing wrong with a "warrior ethos" all things in moderation.  I can tell you when I was a cadet drill was a big part of the experience.  Now I can agree with you that it does not need to be all encompassing, but drill done right and nailed down works wonders.

I never participated in NCC but I did participate in drill comps all 3 years I was in JROTC and let me tell you they start practice early and go long.  My team would practice 2 hrs 2-3 times a week after school and the  we would hold a weekend practice overnight. 

The month of the event we wen 2-3 days early for more practice and fine tuning. We didn't have tailored uniforms but we went to win and win we did. 

Now maybe a revision was needed I can't say but the wonders that can be worked from a group who have things down in this case D&C will shock you.   

In the pro realm most companies have some sort of team building fundementals they practice, practice some more and finally practice more. 

All things in moderation.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2017, 05:28:14 PM »

Random squadrons doing things in a hardkewl way doesn't demonstrate anything
other then perhaps the need for better supervision and Cadet Program Staff
who have actually read the curriculum.

That would be no different then linking to HMRS or PJOC in an ES discussion.  It's irrelevant
since they espouse things well off the national standard and curriculum.

The term "warrior" does not appear in 52-16 nor 60-1, and it only appears in 52-24
in the context of watching out for your buddy in all things.

CAP is a youth career exploration organization which has a paramilitary framework,
but which has increasingly stressed Aerospace education over military life through the last decade.

>If< there ever was a CAP as you remember it, that's long gone, in many cases because of the
reasons cited by me and others.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 05:31:33 PM by Eclipse » Logged


OldGuy
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« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2017, 05:52:41 PM »

Eclipse.  There is nothing wrong with a "warrior ethos" all things in moderation.  I can tell you when I was a cadet drill was a big part of the experience.  Now I can agree with you that it does not need to be all encompassing, but drill done right and nailed down works wonders.

I never participated in NCC but I did participate in drill comps all 3 years I was in JROTC and let me tell you they start practice early and go long.  My team would practice 2 hrs 2-3 times a week after school and the  we would hold a weekend practice overnight. 

The month of the event we wen 2-3 days early for more practice and fine tuning. We didn't have tailored uniforms but we went to win and win we did. 

Now maybe a revision was needed I can't say but the wonders that can be worked from a group who have things down in this case D&C will shock you.   

In the pro realm most companies have some sort of team building fundementals they practice, practice some more and finally practice more. 

All things in moderation.

Agreed. And if we lose that "warrior ethos", we lose a fundamental part of who we are, as part of the US Air Force Total Force and as a culture.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2017, 05:58:53 PM »

Agreed. And if we lose that "warrior ethos", we lose a fundamental part of who we are, as part of the US Air Force Total Force and as a culture.

The Cadet Program is not part of Total Force.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

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Unit: TBKS

« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2017, 06:00:59 PM »

If there was no more "warrior ethos" we would not have a POW-MIA cermony at our banquets.

https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/AFA_POWMIA_Ceremony_E4703BA13691F.pdf

Thankfully we are still proud of the people who serve and train to that ethos, at least in our unit.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2017, 06:04:01 PM »

Agreed. And if we lose that "warrior ethos", we lose a fundamental part of who we are, as part of the US Air Force Total Force and as a culture.

The Cadet Program is not part of Total Force.

Wrong.

https://www.military.com/military-report/civil-air-patrol-joins-total-force.html

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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,526
Unit: Classified

« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2017, 06:12:17 PM »

Eclipse,

I can agree that squadrons doing things their own way and being tacikewl, and going overboard is a bad thing.  Drill teams are not a bad thing. Drill teams are not tactikewl.  Have units gone overboard I can't say for sure one way or the other haven't experienced that. 

I can say that honing drill which is meant to build teamwork and discipline at it' core is not a bad thing and works wonders.  Now no unit in CAP save maybe and that's a very strong maybe needs to have tailored custom fit uniforms for anything outside of maybe an honor/color guard.  NCC sure as heck doesn't.

Nobody is advocating teaching cadets how to low crawl in dark clothes, face paint and how to render a person incapacitated 50 which ways to Sunday,  there is so much more to the "Warrior Ethos" than maybe you realize.  Hence as I said all things in moderation. 

The 12 years I spent in Security Forces I spent alot of time handcuffing, searching, weapons retention, patrolling, etc. until it became second nature.  It was repetitive, went overboard at times and sure as heck sucked, but at the end of the day those skills became second nature.  And in those 12 years I can still count on one hand the number of people that I synced well with to go forth and do the mission.

From what I can gather it sounds like parents and members in CAP got overboard and overzealous with the activity.  Like I said I did drill team/color guard, and honor guard in ROTC and there was alot of practice, alot of repetition and at the end of the day everyone was better for it. 

If I had the time to spare and the fiscal means I wouldn't mind coaching a NCC team in D&C.  Good coaches, commanders and parents seems to be what was lacking in the previous iteration of NCC. 

Yes there is more to CP than just drill, but I can tell when you have a unit of cadets who have their drill down everything else would be so much easier. 
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abdsp51
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Posts: 2,526
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« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2017, 06:13:28 PM »

Agreed. And if we lose that "warrior ethos", we lose a fundamental part of who we are, as part of the US Air Force Total Force and as a culture.

The Cadet Program is not part of Total Force.

Wrong.

https://www.military.com/military-report/civil-air-patrol-joins-total-force.html

Hate to break it to you but "Total Force" is not what its cracked up to be and does not apply 24/7.  I have cautioned many members about throwing that flag out. 
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2017, 06:17:05 PM »

Merry Christmas to all and thank you to everyone who volunteers!

Differences of opinion aside, I am proud to be part of the same organization y'all are. You make a difference.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,545

« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2017, 06:52:32 PM »

Agreed. And if we lose that "warrior ethos", we lose a fundamental part of who we are, as part of the US Air Force Total Force and as a culture.

The Cadet Program is not part of Total Force.

Wrong.

https://www.military.com/military-report/civil-air-patrol-joins-total-force.html

If you're going to refer to or cite documents, at least cite official ones:
https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/CAP%20and%20the%20Total%20Force%20FAQs.pdf

This has been discussed on this board, but maybe bears repeating / revisiting - "Total Force"
applies only to CAP members when they are on an AFAM, therefore the vast majority of members
never are and never will be part of "Total Force".

I suppose you could argue a cadet on an O-ride is on an AFAM, but beyond that, no mission, no TF.

The CP, per se, is not included, nor is the generic term "Airman" appropriate for general use, despite
it's creeping into the ambiance just as "officer" did a few years back as a term for adult members.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,545

« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2017, 06:54:38 PM »

Merry Christmas to all and thank you to everyone who volunteers!

Differences of opinion aside, I am proud to be part of the same organization y'all are. You make a difference.

And the same to you, yours and everyone here!


http://www.dnkphotography.com/blog/family-and-baby-portraits/santa-and-his-elf-are-tired/
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,336
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2017, 07:51:35 PM »

And on that note, we're done.

Happy Holidays. Go spend time with your families or watch football or something else besides jawing on here.

Click.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
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C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Are drill teams now a thing of the past?
 


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