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Cicero
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Posts: 171
Unit: TBKS

« on: December 20, 2017, 11:34:19 PM »

Is the state based structure best? Should we consider other options? How would that happen?
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arajca
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Posts: 4,176

« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 11:57:23 PM »

Is the state based structure best? Should we consider other options? How would that happen?
Well, it makes much easier to ensure state laws are uniformly applied across a wing vs a wing having to keep track of two or three sets of laws and which members are covered under which set. You may also lose some funding, as some states are willing to fund some CAP operations in their state, but not covering multiple states. especially if the other states aren't matching the funds. And, if a state has multiple wings which wing gets the state funds? How would it be allocated?
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Brad
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Unit: MER-SC-020

« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 12:54:45 AM »

Is the state based structure best? Should we consider other options? How would that happen?
Well, it makes much easier to ensure state laws are uniformly applied across a wing vs a wing having to keep track of two or three sets of laws and which members are covered under which set. You may also lose some funding, as some states are willing to fund some CAP operations in their state, but not covering multiple states. especially if the other states aren't matching the funds. And, if a state has multiple wings which wing gets the state funds? How would it be allocated?

All good points, and this is exactly what Regions do, among other things. If a Region is working well with its Wings, the inter-Wing / intra-Region operations (missions, multi-Wing encampments, etc.) are conducted with very little extra red tape aside from the normal stuff with any level of an operation. MER has a Region SAR college and a multi-Wing encampment every year, and Wings within the Region constantly and effortlessly work together when needed on operational missions.
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Brad Lee
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 514

« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 01:17:03 AM »

Is the state based structure best? Should we consider other options? How would that happen?
Well, it makes much easier to ensure state laws are uniformly applied across a wing vs a wing having to keep track of two or three sets of laws and which members are covered under which set. You may also lose some funding, as some states are willing to fund some CAP operations in their state, but not covering multiple states. especially if the other states aren't matching the funds. And, if a state has multiple wings which wing gets the state funds? How would it be allocated?

All good points, and this is exactly what Regions do, among other things. If a Region is working well with its Wings, the inter-Wing / intra-Region operations (missions, multi-Wing encampments, etc.) are conducted with very little extra red tape aside from the normal stuff with any level of an operation. MER has a Region SAR college and a multi-Wing encampment every year, and Wings within the Region constantly and effortlessly work together when needed on operational missions.

I wonder would the workload of maintaining working relationships necessary for effective Wing- State coordination decline as Wings look more like Regions (in terms of connection to States)?   Maybe the OP could offer WHY "BIGger is (more) beautiful" for Wings?   Is the query driven by declining sub unit numbers in smaller Wings (smaller States)?  Declining membership (lower populations to recruit from)?  Maybe both?  If so, would Groups acquire assigned staff fulfill some functions now met by Wing personnel?  If Groups become the new Wings, and Wings the new Region what is the payoff?   
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:20:36 AM by Live2Learn » Logged
RiverAux
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Posts: 10,941

« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 06:15:12 PM »

CG Aux is broken up in just this way.  They essentially have the functional equivalent of a CAP group as the next step up above the local unit and the next step beyond that would be equivalent to a CAP region.  Each state does have a liaison who works with the state in regards to boating laws, but other than that, there can be multiple Aux "groups" within a state with no state-wide coordination between them or the Aux "groups" can go across state lines. 

In the CG Aux context I'm not really sure how well it works.  I think it is is one of the contributing factors with CG Aux having relatively poor (meaning non-existent rather than one of mutual disgust) relationships with local and state governments that limits their participation in emergency response situations.  However, CG Aux plays much less of an emergency response role than CAP by design.  Even with that consideration, I believe that there are missions that the Aux doesn't get called for that they could have responded to (following all appropriate protocols, of course), because there isn't a good statewide relationship.  The Aux really needs another liaison for each state that focuses with working with the state emergency management agency (either serving with an appropriate Coast Guardsmen or possibly in place of them in the middle of the country where they are sparse and the Aux is the primary CG rep.

But, swinging back to CAP, I think we've come a long way in breaking down state boundary issues, particularly in regards to ES issues, but I do think that they can still serve as barriers to what might be the most appropriate organizational structure when squadrons are found near state lines. 
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FW
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Posts: 2,157

« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 06:55:41 PM »

Is the state based structure best? Should we consider other options? How would that happen?

1st question: Why would we need to change?
2nd question: What would be the benefits of such change?
3rd question: Who cares if it changes?

Squadrons "depend" on "higher echelons" for...?

This structure question does come up from time to time, and the answer is always "YES, our state based structure is best"... It's why our O chart has been pretty consistent for the last 70 years.
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darkmatter
Member

Posts: 81

« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 06:56:05 PM »

as far as CAP is concerned state lines is best practice. state laws and all
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,197

« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 08:15:34 PM »

Is the state based structure best?
Yes.
Should we consider other options?
No.
How would that happen?
With great unnecessary, fruitless effort.
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Briank
Member

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Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 08:15:54 PM »

1st question: Why would we need to change?
2nd question: What would be the benefits of such change?
3rd question: Who cares if it changes?

Squadrons "depend" on "higher echelons" for...?

This structure question does come up from time to time, and the answer is always "YES, our state based structure is best"... It's why our O chart has been pretty consistent for the last 70 years.

I don't know a better way to do it.  However, the position I'm in is one where it fails.  I'm located in one state, with the nearest home Wing airplane 1.5 hours away and the preferred ones 2.5 hours away.  However, the neighboring state, last time I checked, had multiple airplanes around 45 minutes away from me.  That's a huge deal in trying to get flight rated and stay current!

While I could switch states, and belong to the Wing of the state that I don't live in, that seems inappropriate if it can at all be avoided...

Is there a better way?  Perhaps, but probably not.  Does this way always work?  No, nothing *always* works.  How should we fix it?  No clue...  :-)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 08:31:53 PM »

Why can't you fly the airplane in the other wing nearer to you?

This is a national organization, you can fly airplanes, get checked out and rated where you are able to go.

You don't need to transfer wings to use a resource in another wing.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,197

« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 08:34:32 PM »

While I could switch states, and belong to the Wing of the state that I don't live in, that seems inappropriate if it can at all be avoided...

This also doesn't really matter in the grande scheme.  Happens all the time.

There have been more then a few Wing Commanders who didn't live in the state their wing is in, let alone
probably thousands of members.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,911

« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 09:20:13 PM »

Is the state based structure best?
Yes.
Should we consider other options?
No.
How would that happen?
With great unnecessary, fruitless effort.

IOW, A "solution" looking for a problem.
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Briank
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2017, 08:23:34 PM »

Why can't you fly the airplane in the other wing nearer to you?

This is a national organization, you can fly airplanes, get checked out and rated where you are able to go.

You don't need to transfer wings to use a resource in another wing.

I can fly it (and will be this Spring due to arrangements currently being made).  However, qualifications don't transfer.  I'll get qualified up there so I can stay current.  Then I have to also get qualified in my home state in order to be eligible for any of the flights that come up where an airplane may happen to visit my part of the state.

It's awkward and adds extra expense just because there's a magic line on a map a mile and a half North of my house.  I guess you've got to draw the line *somewhere*.  It's just been really frustrating feeling caught in the middle between 2 Wings as I've tried to get into an airplane.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 09:27:32 PM »

I can fly it (and will be this Spring due to arrangements currently being made).  However, qualifications don't transfer.  I'll get qualified up there so I can stay current.  Then I have to also get qualified in my home state in order to be eligible for any of the flights that come up where an airplane may happen to visit my part of the state.

Qualifications most certainly do transfer, and wings aren't allowed to add a single extra hoop absent an approved supplement,
and one that requires extra qualification state to state would never fly.

Other then "where are the keys", and "make sure to be nice to Quentin at the FBO" conversations, a MP or F5 pilot from CAWG can
go to NYWG any time he can, reserve the plane and fly.

It's a national organization with national quals and standards.  If you're hearing anything else form either wing, time to start
having direct conversations with Wing or Region DOs.

Consider this...

How would flight academies, NESA, or major missions function if every pilot had to requal in every state they were in?
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Briank
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2017, 09:02:53 PM »

If you're hearing anything else form either wing, time to start
having direct conversations with Wing or Region DOs.

I'll do that for sure.  Our new Wing DO was in town a couple months ago, but only talked about our Wing airplanes.  Tried to bring up across Wing flying, but he moved right back onto just our Wing.  I should have pushed that harder.  A couple times prior to that I was told by the Wing Stan/Eval officer that my Wing would not accept qualifications from another Wing as our Wing could not ensure the quality of those other evaluations.  Which made perfect sense to me as well...

My main goal in CAP this year is to finally fly our airplanes and get working on those qualifications.  I joined 2.5 years ago knowing I had some work ahead of me as a pilot to get CAP certified, but never imagined I'd *still* be struggling to get behind the controls for the first time after a couple years!
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,176

« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2017, 10:24:08 PM »

I can fly it (and will be this Spring due to arrangements currently being made).  However, qualifications don't transfer.  I'll get qualified up there so I can stay current.  Then I have to also get qualified in my home state in order to be eligible for any of the flights that come up where an airplane may happen to visit my part of the state.

Qualifications most certainly do transfer, and wings aren't allowed to add a single extra hoop absent an approved supplement,
and one that requires extra qualification state to state would never fly.
Adding an 'extra' qualification is certainly allowed, following the proper processes of course. Several wings with terrain that is more vertical than horizontal do require a mountain flying qualification that flat wings don't.

If you're hearing anything else form either wing, time to start
having direct conversations with Wing or Region DOs.

I'll do that for sure.  Our new Wing DO was in town a couple months ago, but only talked about our Wing airplanes.  Tried to bring up across Wing flying, but he moved right back onto just our Wing.  I should have pushed that harder.  A couple times prior to that I was told by the Wing Stan/Eval officer that my Wing would not accept qualifications from another Wing as our Wing could not ensure the quality of those other evaluations.  Which made perfect sense to me as well...

That excuse has been used many times and is used to keep the GOB club flying. If a pilot (or GTM or MSA or MRO, or etc) has been signed off as completing the requirements, they are qualified throughout CAP.

Take this nugget from Eclipse:
Quote
How would flight academies, NESA, or major missions function if every pilot had to requal in every state they were in?
and expand to EVERY qualification, ES, PD,  or otherwise.
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,541

« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2017, 10:35:04 PM »

Have we not seen how many Wings came to New York and New Jersey to photograph changes after Sandy and other 'canes?

Have we not seen how other states flew to California's aid after some similar disasters?

Putting up artificial barriers by casting doubts on cross-wing preparations certainly hampers such cooperation!
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,197

« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2017, 10:48:22 PM »

I can fly it (and will be this Spring due to arrangements currently being made).  However, qualifications don't transfer.  I'll get qualified up there so I can stay current.  Then I have to also get qualified in my home state in order to be eligible for any of the flights that come up where an airplane may happen to visit my part of the state.

Qualifications most certainly do transfer, and wings aren't allowed to add a single extra hoop absent an approved supplement,
and one that requires extra qualification state to state would never fly.
Adding an 'extra' qualification is certainly allowed, following the proper processes of course. Several wings with terrain that is more vertical than horizontal do require a mountain flying qualification that flat wings don't.

Fair enough, but as you say, there'd be sups for that.

I always forget about the FSM-forsaken places man was never intended to live...
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: State Border Wing Structure - change it? Keep it?
 


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