Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 18, 2018, 08:47:26 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Where does it say we obey the law?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print
Author Topic: Where does it say we obey the law?  (Read 4897 times)
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 716

« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 03:28:43 PM »

That's fine, but if you're on seen and talking over me, getting in my way, and making a nuisance of yourself, you're the one causing the problem, not me. And you will be told to go pound sand.
PM sent.


Warning 1. Keep the discussion respectful please.
Logged
Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2017, 04:30:12 PM »

For those who may be confused: if you're out hiking and the guy in front of you is feeling the heat, get him some water and find some shade.
Logged
Chaplaindon
Seasoned Member

Posts: 234

« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 06:54:50 PM »

Speaking as a retired paramedic and flight paramedic (and CAP GTL and IC), there sure seems to be a lot of sand pounding going on ... must be some sort of new ACLS protocol. Personally, I suggest TITRATING sand to the patient's B/P and LOC.
Logged
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
Flotilla Commander & ACS Chaplain, USCG Auxliary
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 07:02:15 PM »

Anyone else still confused as to why CAP will remain a non-medical provider and that
is never, ever going to change, despite the superhero wishes of many members?

An organization that can't even issue a correct, nor update their uniform manual would
be incapable of establishing the protocols, procedures and recurrent training necessary to assume that liability.
Logged


arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,300

« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 07:36:39 PM »

Another issue is the variety of laws covering medical services, especially EMS. Not to mention the different protocols many areas have.
Logged
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 696

« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2017, 09:29:35 PM »

Another issue is the variety of laws covering medical services, especially EMS. Not to mention the different protocols many areas have.

Is there such a thing as a nationwide medial service? I can't imagine trying to come up with policies that apply everywhere.
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,247

« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2017, 11:14:04 PM »

When in the last 5 years or so has a CAP SAR team been the first responder to a scene where any type of medical attention was needed and or required? Does this happen often, that we are there first waiting for others to arrive?
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2017, 12:39:23 AM »

Anyone else still confused as to why CAP will remain a non-medical provider and that
is never, ever going to change, despite the superhero wishes of many members?

An organization that can't even issue a correct, nor update their uniform manual would
be incapable of establishing the protocols, procedures and recurrent training necessary to assume that liability.

It is also incapable of being able to afford the liability or malpractice insurance.
Logged
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,278
Unit: Worry

« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2017, 02:31:20 AM »

CAPR 1-2:
Quote
2.1. The Board of Governors (BoG), United States Air Force (USAF), or law shall establish policies in
accordance with the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol.

I found this statement odd. It should read along the lines of: "The Board of Governors (BoG), shall establish policies in accordance with the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol, to include standards set by the United States Air Force (USAF)." Laws do not establish policies in accordance with CAP. CAP must operate in accordance with law.

That would be redundant. Read the Constitution and Bylaws for details.
Logged
Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2017, 09:37:36 AM »

When in the last 5 years or so has a CAP SAR team been the first responder to a scene where any type of medical attention was needed and or required? Does this happen often, that we are there first waiting for others to arrive?

The chances of CAP being first on the scene with the surviving subject of a search are slender indeed. But there is a not-so-slender chance of a CAP member needing medical attention, especially the milder forms of heat and cold injuries.
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2017, 11:47:28 AM »


The chances of CAP being first on the scene with the surviving subject of a search are slender indeed. But there is a not-so-slender chance of a CAP member needing medical attention, especially the milder forms of heat and cold injuries.

Odds might be "slender indeed" for a CAP member to offer necessary medical attention on a search, but we have many other activities where injuries from heat/cold, falls, accidents might occur in locations where the organized EMS network isn't likely to arrive onsite any time soon.  For example, a CAP orienteering course may be on the backside of some mountain half an hour or more from town... where (shock, shock!) cell coverage is nil.  Or, a van of CAP SM and cadets might encounter an auto accident or even a train wreck while enroute to some out of town event.  There are LOTS of places in western states where cell phones are useful paperweights... at least for substantial parts of any journey.  :)
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2017, 12:06:48 PM »

I'm not sure why so many CAP members believe that medical treatment must be close by for any activity.  I was involved in Boy Scouts for years and I don't recall such concern for having EMS/medically trained personnel either on site or very close.  We just made sure that we had a good first aid kit and went camping, hiking, zip lining, etc.  Yes, scouts did get hurt but they survived even without an on site doctor.

What is CAP doing that is so different that so many people believe that we need to have a more capable medical mission?
Logged
NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 912
Unit: MER-NC-057

« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2017, 12:48:59 PM »

What is CAP doing that is so different that so many people believe that we need to have a more capable medical mission?

IMHO, there are two answers to this question.  First, CAP advertises search and rescue both internally and externally, implying some level of medical capability.  Second, there is the Health Services Officer position which grants advanced rank to appropriately credentialed members but does little to actually utilize their expertise.  Some of what you see is simply members trying to make that expertise relevant to CAP.
Logged
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,257

« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2017, 12:52:30 PM »

Another issue is the variety of laws covering medical services, especially EMS. Not to mention the different protocols many areas have.

Is there such a thing as a nationwide medial service? I can't imagine trying to come up with policies that apply everywhere.

The Veterans Administration is about as close as we come to a Nationwide Medical Service and that's stretching it.
Logged
Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2017, 01:26:50 PM »

I'm not sure why so many CAP members believe that medical treatment must be close by for any activity.  I was involved in Boy Scouts for years and I don't recall such concern for having EMS/medically trained personnel either on site or very close.  We just made sure that we had a good first aid kit and went camping, hiking, zip lining, etc.  Yes, scouts did get hurt but they survived even without an on site doctor.

What is CAP doing that is so different that so many people believe that we need to have a more capable medical mission?

Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't say CAP must have a more capable medical mission. People hike in the woods and go for mile runs every day without having an EMS person along. Searches by various agencies routinely use state troopers, firefighters, and spontaneous volunteers, with no EMS person attached to each team.

I would say it is counter-productive to have Task Guides that would require EMS personnel to recite outdated answers to questions. This is particularly the case since the more serious hyperthermia and hypothermia cases are few and far between. It's enough of a struggle to flush the outdated information out of one's mind when new protocols come out, without having to rememorize and reforget the information to be a member of a CAP ground team. The person conducting the evaluation should be permitted to judge a candidate on the current protocol in the area where the evaluation is conducted, provided the candidate provides the evaluator with a copy of the protocol.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2017, 01:51:10 PM »

I would say it is counter-productive to have Task Guides that would require EMS personnel to recite outdated answers to questions.

The task guides do not require "EMS personnel to recite outdated answers to questions", it requires members wishing to be
qualified as CAP Ground Team Members, to learn, understand, and execute the CAP standard as written and presented.  It makes no distinction
for "EMS personnel", since they are not specifically called out as a qualification.

This is particularly the case since the more serious hyperthermia and hypothermia cases are few and far between. It's enough of a struggle to flush the outdated information out of one's mind when new protocols come out, without having to rememorize and reforget the information to be a member of a CAP ground team. The person conducting the evaluation should be permitted to judge a candidate on the current protocol in the area where the evaluation is conducted, provided the candidate provides the evaluator with a copy of the protocol.

That's not how a national standard works. 

The answer is for anyone with a conflict of rating or understanding to disengage that particular CAP duty or qualification
until such time as the personal, subjective calls regarding a given policy or procedure can be properly reconciled
with the respective CAP policy, procedure, or curriculum.

No one requires a member to be a GTM.  I advise members all the time that if they can't abide by the curriculum,
for whatever reason, just find a different way to be of use.

There is no spoon.  Accepting that is much better then wasting money on bandages for your forehead.


Logged


EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2017, 01:54:30 PM »

Anyone want to discuss wet vs dry dressings for burns?
Logged
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 932

« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2017, 02:18:23 PM »

They're still not laws. Also, Good Samaritian Laws do not apply to trained EMS staff in some states. In New York, if I stop at a medical incident outside of my primary area preform care above the basic life support level, I'm on the hook. My supervising physician will probably cover for me the best he can, but I'm still going to take a rip, even if the patient has a good outcome.
It probably is state and license dependent. There has been at least one lawsuit that I've been informed about where a nurse failed to provide care who was on scene and was held civilly liable in a wrongful death lawsuit related to failure to reasonably act.

Nurses and PA's have no legal authority to operate outside of their specific workplace beyond low level basic care. I've told multiple nurses, inculding ones I've known personally, to go pound sand when they attempt to interfere with patient care in the pre hospital setting.

Quote
It probably is state and license dependent. There has been at least one lawsuit that I've been informed about where a nurse failed to provide care who was on scene and was held civilly liable in a wrongful death lawsuit related to failure to reasonably act.


That is often very state dependent.  My wife had been told at one point years ago (Sorry I cant find the specific reference) but generally in our state, the Nursing Practice Act holds a RN accountable to the standards of the act at all times.  Even though they may not be "working" or have a "hands on" level of intervention, they are expected to conform to the states standards of practice, care, behavior, advocacy etc etc at all times. (hence why they can loose their license for things like DUI, drug offenses etc even if it doenst happen at work) So an RN witnessing a Paramedic performing inappropriate care or dangerous interventions could still receive disciplinary action from the state board of nursing for failing to attempt to intervene at the time (ie at minimum telling said EMS provider they are/may be in the wrong)

Again, much like the problem of "national" protocols, every state is different in what you can and cant do and when you are or are not held to a certain level of accountability; EMS provider, RN or physician.

mk
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 932

« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2017, 02:31:49 PM »

Anyone else still confused as to why CAP will remain a non-medical provider and that
is never, ever going to change, despite the superhero wishes of many members?

An organization that can't even issue a correct, nor update their uniform manual would
be incapable of establishing the protocols, procedures and recurrent training necessary to assume that liability.

It is also incapable of being able to afford the liability or malpractice insurance.

Personally I think the bigger concern is the difficulty to manage the system and the people that makes sure you don't need to worry about having to kick in your liability and malpractice insurance.  I see very little reason that CAP personnel couldn't be additionally covered under the same liability and malpractice that covers DoD medical personnel now for when they perform civilian care. (that whole instrumentality of the USAF when performing on authorized missions etc etc.  But I am just a medical guy, not a lawyer or policy expert)

mk
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,074

« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2017, 03:01:02 PM »

Again, much like the problem of "national" protocols, every state is different in what you can and cant do and when you are or are not held to a certain level of accountability; EMS provider, RN or physician.

And to press this point further, what about when a member from one state deploys to another?

That happens far too often these days for disasters, and on a regular basis for NCSAs, encampments, SARExs,
O-rides, etc., etc.
Logged


Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Where does it say we obey the law?
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.17 seconds with 20 queries.
click here to email me