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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Transgender
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Cadetter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 204

« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2017, 05:12:06 PM »

Currently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling. I have some understanding of the difference between and 8 minute and a 9 minute mile, because while I can sometimes get 9 to 9:15 and it feels the same, it's not consistent, and getting below 9 minutes will be challenging (hopefully attainable). I have no idea if I will be able to get below 7:30 in a year or two when I attempt Spaatz. The lower the times are, the greater the difficulty in shaving off time. I get that. (translatable to other physical activities as well, of course)

Run faster.

There are people that can run 5:15 miles.

Maybe I'm perceiving a tone there that you didn't intend. Firstly, I am not fit, and I'm well aware of that, although a year ago I was obese and now I'm at a normal weight and am at least capable of running for the whole mile (and 3-4 miles at a snail's jog). And secondly, cool, my boyfriend can run a 4:30 mile. Neither 5:15 or 4:30 is a practical mile standard to apply to everyone (too harsh) and I'd say a 9:30 is too slow (most somewhat fit teens, male or female, in my acquaintance (I know it's not a significant sample) can get 8:00).

a gender-neutral CPFT plan could be implemented, where everyone would be held to the same standards, while still being fair for both males and females alike.

I don't frankly know why CAP doesn't have this already - one less argument.

"Equal" is "equal".

So do you set the standard at the current level for males, or do you lower the standards for all, to be at what females do now? Or do you just split the difference, which makes it easier for those who are born male, but harder for those who were born female?

Or just let everyone get by with a 30 minute mile run/walk? LOLOL

No matter what ... standards will be lower.

Recruiting may benefit from this. But few will qualify to wear blues ever again.

Why would standards be lower? As a mother of a female cadet, stop assuming girls canít run, do push ups etc. Push females to reach their peek physical abilities, and then push them further. I would love to see the PT standards for females changed to a healthier standard.


Great! So there is one vote to move the female standards, along with all transgenders, to the higher standards traditional of males, and just have one set of requirements. I'll second that motion. Shall we vote and let Hdqs know?  ;)

Dooooo it lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Awesome! Under these delightful standards, I get to pass sit&reach with barely even stretching, and with the curl-ups and sit-and-reach, who even needs to pass push-ups? No one except Spaatz candidates need get below an 8-minute mile, too.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,197

« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2017, 05:23:59 PM »

Awesome! Under these delightful standards, I get to pass sit&reach with barely even stretching, and with the curl-ups and sit-and-reach, who even needs to pass push-ups? No one except Spaatz candidates need get below an 8-minute mile, too.

So, just for discussion's sake, how would that be "bad"?

CAP's adoption and execution of PT is completely arbitrary, internally created (based on whatever standard the current administration sees fit),
and not specific to the preparation for anything other then a "healthy lifestyle".  It also generally lags the school norms of the respective era.

Academy Cadets, PD Cadets, Fire Cadets, Soldiers, etc., are all training to a standard to perform one or another specific operation,
for CAP it's just general "fitness" at whatever level NHQ sees "fit" (see what I did there?).

So what difference does it actually make what the "real" numbers are, since they aren't targeted at any specific ability?

I'd rather have a room full of happy cadets who are generally active, flexible, and within a range of normal, then 4-5 Spaatz candidates
who, despite their best efforts, are not likely to be Academy bound.

Instead of sad cadets who don't make 8, how about happy cadets all making 7?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 05:32:49 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Cadetter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 204

« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2017, 05:34:16 PM »

I didn't say it was bad. I think an 8-minute mile is actually an "average" standard for adults, so requiring that of 18+ cadets, male and female, with somewhat laxer requirements for younger cadets, could be quite reasonable.
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Ned
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Posts: 2,136

« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2017, 08:45:28 PM »

We have certainly discussed CPFT standards many times, both here and in other settings.

It bears repeating that the whole point of relying on the evidenced-based standards put out by the federal government is to avoid any arbitrary CAP-specific PT standards. 

As in "Well, I think that a C/SSgt should run a mile in 7:30. Because NCOs should set a good example for their cadets."  "No, that is unrealistically fast and will make cadets stall in grade.  We should set it at a very achievable 10 flat so that everyone can advance in grade regularly."

And so on.

We looked very, very hard for evidence-based fitness metrics for contemporary Americans in our age cohort.  We scoured the net.  We consulted academics and health professionals. We went to national youth fitness conferences seeking guidance.  And all paths led to the Presidential Youth Fitness Program, which is literally the only dataset / program that met our needs.  So we adapted it to our use as the Active Cadet Fitness Program.  And the assessment portion has been successfully beta-tested by over a hundred units for over a year.  It appears to be working, and has reduced the number of cadets who have "stalled" at an achievement based on the prior CPFT standards.

Let me also note that the official goal of our Fitness Element is:
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 / 60-1
To develop in cadets a habit of regular exercise.

We believe that the Active Cadet Fitness Program does exactly that, as part of a vigorous cadet program that also focusses on Leadership, Character, Stem, and activities.

And finally, to respond to the original topic of the thread, our data suggests that CAP has approximately the same percentage of TG members as are reflected in the population at large.  Of course, all cadets are to be encouraged and supported as they successfully engage in the program.  The actual number of TG members is relatively small, and we rely on CAP leaders to implement our program at the local level.  Based on the current ACFP assessment criteria, it appears that few, if any, TG cadets following our current procedures have had difficulty succeeding in the fitness assessment based on their legal gender.  If there is any indication that there is an actual (as opposed to a theoretical) problem, rest assured we will carefully review the situation and make adjustments as necessary.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager
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SarDragon
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« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2017, 01:08:42 AM »

Currently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling.

Get your butt out there and start some serious running. I was running an 8 minute mile as a 40 yo (12 minute mile and a half) when I retired from the Navy.

[ETA] And 80 sit-ups in two minutes.
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Dave Bowles
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Cadetter
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Posts: 204

« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2017, 01:40:41 AM »

Currently I'm struggling to bring down a 9:45 mile to a 9:34. It's eleven seconds. It's not a fast mile, but I'm struggling.

Get your butt out there and start some serious running. I was running an 8 minute mile as a 40 yo (12 minute mile and a half) when I retired from the Navy.

[ETA] And 80 sit-ups in two minutes.

Honestly, sir, I don't think that 3 minutes (12 to 9) off my mile time over a period of 5 months (June through October) is too shabby although it is unremarkable. As I've spent six out of the last eight weeks bedridden, even missing school (hint: I love school), the extra 45s isn't awful. I expect to be running an 8-minute mile by the end of February, provided I don't get hospitalized or something.
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SarDragon
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Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2017, 01:48:10 AM »

Good for you. Med issues will get you some slack. Keep going. It really pained me, when I was in a cadet squadron, to be outrunning half the cadets in the mile run, when I was 45.
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Dave Bowles
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Cadetter
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« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2017, 01:53:41 AM »

At least your time was respectable :) I outrun all but one of the males that don't pass PT, and I've never gotten below 9 minutes.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 997

« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2017, 04:59:56 PM »

One of the reasons the standards get more stringent as grade/age change is because the intent, as Ned said, is to put cadets into an active lifestyle. The intent was to push cadets to stay active outside of the weekly meeting, not just once a month during a CPFT.

This is where the new PFC-based program is trying to fit in: focusing less on a score and more on activity and healthy lifestyles. To each their own on the actual graded portions; that's an entirely separate debate.

I'm not exactly seeing what your sidebar conversation about fitness has to do with the OP's question regarding uniform standards and the Commander giving the EO talk to the squadron.

And yes, I had an intentional tone in that post back there...
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PHall
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Posts: 5,910

« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2017, 05:41:38 PM »

At least your time was respectable :) I outrun all but one of the males that don't pass PT, and I've never gotten below 9 minutes.

He had a reason to be able to run like that. He was in the Navy and needed to pass his physical fitness test!
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etodd
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Posts: 968

« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2017, 05:45:09 PM »

So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2017, 05:59:22 PM »

So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.

There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.

Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.

Rinse.  Repeat.

This is quite literally the American Way.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2017, 07:36:18 PM »

So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.

There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.

Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.

Rinse.  Repeat.

This is quite literally the American Way.

Exactly my point.  Something to consider in CAP. Whether one can opt out of PT if the military isn't their goal, but cyber or math is.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 997

« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2017, 10:05:38 PM »

So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.

There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.

Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.

Rinse.  Repeat.

This is quite literally the American Way.

Exactly my point.  Something to consider in CAP. Whether one can opt out of PT if the military isn't their goal, but cyber or math is.

The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill.

An alternative organization may exist for those that want the Cyber side without the physical exertion. This is a military-structured program. Fitness standards, uniform standards, progression, discipline---all of it---that's this program. It's not a science club or hangout spot.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2017, 10:40:13 PM »

So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.

There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.

Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.

Rinse.  Repeat.

This is quite literally the American Way.

Exactly my point.  Something to consider in CAP. Whether one can opt out of PT if the military isn't their goal, but cyber or math is.

The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill.

An alternative organization may exist for those that want the Cyber side without the physical exertion. This is a military-structured program. Fitness standards, uniform standards, progression, discipline---all of it---that's this program. It's not a science club or hangout spot.

 >:D ;D
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Cicero
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Posts: 170
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2017, 01:02:41 AM »

So many of today's kids. Dreaming of making a living with no physical exertion.

There's millions of people with "regular" jobs that never do anything more then lift a coffee cup.

Walk to attached garage, drive through Dunkin, drive to work, walk to desk.

Rinse.  Repeat.

This is quite literally the American Way.

Exactly my point.  Something to consider in CAP. Whether one can opt out of PT if the military isn't their goal, but cyber or math is.

The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill.

An alternative organization may exist for those that want the Cyber side without the physical exertion. This is a military-structured program. Fitness standards, uniform standards, progression, discipline---all of it---that's this program. It's not a science club or hangout spot.
Well said!
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SarDragon
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Posts: 10,123
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2017, 03:05:46 AM »

At least your time was respectable :) I outrun all but one of the males that don't pass PT, and I've never gotten below 9 minutes.

He had a reason to be able to run like that. He was in the Navy and needed to pass his physical fitness test!

True dat, and my time was always well within the time limit for my age.  8)
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Dave Bowles
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2017, 12:47:26 PM »


The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill.


Yes. When it comes to attracting potential Cadets, can we compete well with AFJROTC? Are the benefits when it comes to college and or entering the military equal?  (I really have no idea) Just wondering if the AF needs to change anything so that we can be competitive with AFJROTC when it comes to recruitment?
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2017, 01:15:58 PM »


The CAP Cadet Program is a paramilitary-based organization, just as AFJROTC is. They both have a curriculum in STEM. They both have a curriculum in physical fitness. They both have a curriculum in drill.


Yes. When it comes to attracting potential Cadets, can we compete well with AFJROTC? Are the benefits when it comes to college and or entering the military equal?  (I really have no idea) Just wondering if the AF needs to change anything so that we can be competitive with AFJROTC when it comes to recruitment?

I spent a great deal of yesterday working on a training outline, and in so doing, decided to do some research on AFJROTC. I was very surprised at virtually how mirrored most cadet units in CAP are to JROTC units. I see a majority of drill, PT, Color Guard (yes, also drill), and some STEM. It seems like the curriculum also includes a bit of land navigation/orienteering, which is often the extent of cadets' exposure to ES; though, there are some additional opportunities for CAP cadets that JROTC cadets do not seem to have access to.

So competition wise, I don't think CAP is all that far off. I do think that marketing plays a huge factor: "Air Force JROTC" vs. "Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program." Virtually everyone knows the former, and we often have to explain the latter, as discussed in other recent topics.

Okay, so let's get past the marketing aspect and focus on the mission. The CAP Cadet Program is a youth leadership program with a military structure to instill a certain level of discipline and professionalism with an aerospace and emergency services backdrop to provide additional training experiences and opportunities. When you start cutting fitness and appearance standards, you start losing that military/Air Force aspect. There's enough griping in the military these days about the performance of soldiers, airmen, sailors, marines, and their respective officers when it comes to these things. We're not doing our organization, to its intent, much justice to tone those down.

To get it out of the way: Everyone's unique; everyone's an individual; everyone is special in their own way. I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. But how far does it go? I happen to feel, and it's just me, that a certain level of conformity and standardization among the crowd instills a certain level of camaraderie and sense of team orientation. Yes, there's more to community than what you look like or how you dress. And there's more to individuality than just your unique, or even mastered, set of skills. When you combine those aspects together jointly, you see a greater team success and companionship than you do trying to find everyone with their niche. The Cadet Program isn't there to develop just individual leaders in their own way; it's to make cadets part of a much larger community. This requires some sacrifice of one's comfort areas and preferences, to include forfeiting what you choose to wear and how you present yourself to both the public and the internal collective.

Perhaps if we tried to do more to enforce the existing standards, including fitness and uniform wear, while we may not have the roster sizes we all long for, we may have a much greater success with those that do opt to stay in this organization for the long run, thus producing stronger, more disciplined, more resilient leaders in the future.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 968

« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2017, 01:49:07 PM »



I spent a great deal of yesterday working on a training outline, and in so doing, decided to do some research on AFJROTC. I was very surprised at virtually how mirrored most cadet units in CAP are to JROTC units. I see a majority of drill, PT, Color Guard (yes, also drill), and some STEM. It seems like the curriculum also includes a bit of land navigation/orienteering, which is often the extent of cadets' exposure to ES; though, there are some additional opportunities for CAP cadets that JROTC cadets do not seem to have access to.

How does a CAP Cadet entering college and going AFROTC ... compare to a AFJROTC high schooler entering college and going AFROTC?

If I know of a 14 year old who is already thinking of college and an AF career .... which route is best of the two? I really don't think they could be totally equal. The AFROTC Commander (or whatever) at the college might prefer one over the other.

The questions being in regards to marketing to youth interested in military.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Transgender
 


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