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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Transgender
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Author Topic: Transgender  (Read 6196 times)
Lemondyde
Newbie

Posts: 2
Unit: Pilgrim

« on: December 13, 2017, 02:13:24 PM »

Hello, I am Cadet Airman Basic Bailey Watchorn of CAP Pilgrim Squadron. I am, to my knowledge the only transgender member in my squadron. Two weeks ago my squadron leader asked me why my hair was so long, and I told him I was transgender. Yesterday, Tuesday December 11th, 2017 my squadron had a meeting. I missed it due to being sick, yet one of my fellow squad-mates goes to my school, and he told me they had talked about gender rules. Is there anyone here in Plymouth squadron? If not, what are the rules on transgender cadets?


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MrsRoe
Member

Posts: 61

« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 02:17:49 PM »

I truly do not know if there is a policy (I plan on searching when Iím home Incase this comes up in my own unit) but Iím wondering if the 36-1 perhaps might touch on it?


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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time
dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,333

« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2017, 02:20:41 PM »

You are not the only transgender cadet in CAP. That said, you may be the first transgender person your squadron leadership has ever met.

NHQ/CP has provided guidance regarding transgender cadets, and the national cadet programs manager is on the forums regularly and will likely chime in with more information.

Welcome to CAP!
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MrsRoe
Member

Posts: 61

« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 02:24:02 PM »

There are several threads between 2014 and 2016 discussing this topic. I donít know if the info is still valid but hereís one

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=20708.0



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Just a new SM and mom of a CAP kid trying to figure it out one acronym at a time
zippity
Recruit

Posts: 18
Unit: Metric

« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 02:33:37 PM »

Quoting from CAPR 36-1, Civil Air Patrol Nondiscrimination Program:

Quote
It is CAP policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination with respect to accessibility to any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, color, sex, age, religion (creed), national origin (ancestry), sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, disability (formerly handicap), marital status, military or veteran status.

Every year squadrons cover CAP's nondiscrimination policy (we just had ours last night), so it's possible that's what your squadmate is talking about. Otherwise you could check with your chain of command and get caught up with what happened during the meeting.

Welcome to CAP, C/AB Lemondyde!
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,555

« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 02:40:22 PM »

What are the rules on transgender cadets?

See CAPR 36-1: https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf

Which in turn references DOD instruction 1300.28: https://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/features/2016/0616_policy/DoD-Instruction-1300.28.pdf
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,179

« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 03:21:06 PM »

Brand new CAP Pamphlet 1-10 also contains guidance on TG issues.

Since it is new, your squadron members might not have seen it.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,145

« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2017, 05:56:26 PM »

What are you registered as on your eServices/personnel profile, if you know? If you are listed as a male, and that's all anyone may really know just from reading your file (say, at Encampment, or even at the home unit obviously) until told otherwise, then you would be assumed to meet the uniform standards of your profile gender.

I find it odd that your command staff would not have been privy to this, perhaps just on the notion that your file would list a gender (male or female), and that you would immediately fall into the category of that gender listed. Nobody would really know otherwise unless it was brought up. So if you're listed as a male, and decided to grow your hair out, I can see where it would be assumed that you would meet male standards as a male cadet (as they knew it). Now, if your profile said male, but they were informed that you are transgender, then I would assume there either would have been a discussion with you (and/or parent), and this addressed early on in your membership.

Now, your personal life isn't really the business of anyone on here or anyone else in your unit for that matter (and others may disagree; personal opinions of the subject of transgenderism should not dictate this discussion). So what I would have expected, as a Deputy Commander for Cadets, is that you would be registered as a cadet under your identifying gender, and I likely would have heard from my Commander, Recruiting Officer, Personnel Officer, or directly from your parent, and all of this would have been squared away upon entry.

The discussion with the unit could just have been coincidental in the timing of the Non-Discrimination discussion that units are supposed to have once a year, or it could have been due to your case. You could always discuss this with your unit leadership.

As an Airman Basic, I can only assume you are fairly new to CAP, and your unit. Do you know if this was discussed with your Commander when you joined? Also, is your hair in accordance with the standards for the gender in which you identify, to include, if female, proper styling of longer hair?
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MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 334

« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2017, 11:44:40 AM »

Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,055
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2017, 12:25:28 PM »

Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.


Yeah, that seems to be the approach consistent with the new pub, as the baseline for new members. Members should wear the uniform consistent with, and groom to standards for, their currently legal sex. THEN, Para. 9.3 in the new pub then suggests that transgender members who want to wear an alternate need to submit their request in writing through their chain (with medical documentation) to HQ CAP/DP.


I would assume that's simply because no one in CAP below CAP-USAF has the delegated authority to waiver the USAF style uniforms (any Wing supplements to the uniforms similarly have to go up for approval too). It isn't intended to make it harder on people, but rather to make sure that we are following the USAF guidance.


Cadet Watchorn, welcome to CAP. Please read the link from Ned carefully. The option is there to go forward if you choose.


V/r
Spam

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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 833
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2017, 12:32:38 PM »

Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.

They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Lemondyde
Newbie

Posts: 2
Unit: Pilgrim

« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2017, 12:41:10 PM »

Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.

They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.
Talking to a lieutenant in my squadron, and a sergeant in my squadron, I have heard that there is a possibility of doing *something*


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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 833
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2017, 12:52:59 PM »

Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.

They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.
Talking to a lieutenant in my squadron, and a sergeant in my squadron, I have heard that there is a possibility of doing *something*


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Read CAPP 1-10 posted above. If need be print it off and take it to them.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,555

« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 01:17:56 PM »

Hmmm.... I thought I saw a clarification on this about a year or so ago. If I remember it correctly, what CAP decided to do is to use the gender that is listed on the birth certificate and that determines the applicable regulations.

They can request accommodations but must do so in writing to National.
Talking to a lieutenant in my squadron, and a sergeant in my squadron, I have heard that there is a possibility of doing *something*

Don't rely on a local accommodation or anything else that doesn't involve National Headquarters, and includes
documentation. Your local leadership may allow for things outside their authority in the name of being sensitive
and wind up making things worse.

If you plan to attend encampments, NCSA, or similar activities outside your unit, those Commanders
are under no obligation to adhere to local agreements or accommodations in this regard that have not
been authorized and / or mandated by NHQ.

These are complicated conversations, and you may not always get the response you are hoping for,
but the time to have them is >now<, not when you're standing in line at registration.
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,858
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 05:15:01 PM »

As long as you meet the basic requirements of membership, your gender has no bearing on your membership. Having said that you (and your parents) should have a discussion with your unit leadership about what is expected from both sides, uniforms, what accommodations are needed, etc.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,145

« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2017, 03:50:03 PM »

Regardless of the gender of your identity, in checking your CAP profile, your hair is out of regulations for both male and female standards. So there's the issue that I know of.

If you identify as a male, you need to meet male grooming standards. If you identify as a female, you're going to need to either cut your hair, or style it appropriately in a bun, or straighten in a way that it falls to a position neatly above your shoulders. It's not so much the length but the height and overhang on the sides that I see as the styling problem.

You won't receive any accommodations in this regard, with the exception of allowing to groom to the standard of your identity versus biological sex. An accommodation will not include a "however you want to wear it" clause.
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deepblue1947
Member

Posts: 50
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 07:32:15 PM »

Question:  A male at birth with male genitalia says he identifies as a female.  Is he going to be allowed to wear the female uniform/skirt?

MG
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,555

« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 07:47:41 PM »

Question:  A male at birth with male genitalia says he identifies as a female.  Is he going to be allowed to wear the female uniform/skirt?

As of today, NHQ indicates that a member must wear the uniform which corresponds to his or her legal gender.

Any other allowances or accommodations must be, and can only be made at the National Level.
No other echelon or Commander has the authority to make allowances or accommodations.

Several states have potentially complicated this issue by allowing for non-descriptive indications of gender on legal
documents.  NHQ has not made any statement or indication how that would be handled, but regardless
it would be in their court.

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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,807
Unit: Earth

« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 07:59:53 PM »

Question:  A male at birth with male genitalia says he identifies as a female.  Is he going to be allowed to wear the female uniform/skirt?

MG

As per CAPP 1-10, yes:

Quote
9.3. Transgender Accommodations. Members may request authorization to wear the uniform corresponding to their gender identity. A letter, including medical documentation that the individual is a transgender person, is required. Members submit their requests in writing through the chain of command to CAP/DP. For help with policy questions, contact CAP/DP. 

And just to further the answer:

Quote
6. Unacceptable Reasons for Denying an Accommodation

While CAP is not always able to approve accommodation requests, the non ‐ discrimination policy prohibits local leaders from denying those requests for the wrong reasons. Some examples of improper reasons for denying requests include:

6.1. Inconvenience to staff or other participants; time ‐ consuming; ďweíve always done it this way.Ē By definition, every request for an accommodation is a request to alter the usual way of doing business in some manner, and as such, every accommodation imposes at least some inconvenience or demands extra time and effort from local leaders or the overall group. Inconvenience on its own is not sufficient reason for denying a request. In adopting a nondiscrimination policy, CAP recognizes that it sometimes will need to devote extra time, attention, and resources to individuals protected by that policy.

6.2. Personal bias; desire not to associate with the member because of his or her special need. If a member prefers not to associate with a fellow member because of the member having a special need that is protected by the non ‐ discrimination policy, the remedy is for the displeased member to choose CAPP 1 ‐ 10 Special Needs 1 September 2017 6 to stay home. Local leaders cannot exclude a member from participation on the grounds that someone or even a majority of the group prefers that a person not participate.

6.3. Detracts from esprit de corps or desire for a standardized appearance. In the cadet environment especially, military ‐ style standardization of appearance is an ideal. But it is not appropriate for local leaders to cite a negative impact upon standardized appearance as grounds for denying participation. For example, a cadet who uses a wheelchair cannot be denied participation in a parade on the grounds that the wheelchair detracts from the formationís appearance. On its surface, a rule of ďevery partici ‐ pant must keep in stepĒ sounds neutral and fair, but in effect, it creates a disparate impact, unfairly limiting the participation of the cadet solely on the grounds of her disability.

6.4 Moral Objections or Religious Beliefs. Denying an accommodation must be based on the effect such an accommodation will have on CAP resources, or on CAPís missions, activities, or operations. Denying an accommodation purely because one or more persons are morally against it is insufficient. For instance, refusing to accommodate a homosexual personís request simply because other members have a moral objection to homosexuality, would not be permitted. 
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,067

« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 08:01:02 PM »

Question:  A male at birth with male genitalia says he identifies as a female.  Is he going to be allowed to wear the female uniform/skirt?

MG

Long answer short, if eServices says male, then male standards are adhered to; if eServices says female, then female standards are adhered to. When in doubt, contact NHQ on this one.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 08:04:17 PM by jeders » Logged
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Transgender
 


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