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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Not allowed to join a unit?
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AWACS-Guy
Recruit

Posts: 6

« on: December 10, 2017, 08:01:57 PM »

Hi - I wonder if anyone can give me some guidance here. I recently tried to transfer to a CAP squadron - and was rejected by "the membership committee". I'm puzzled - to my knowledge there is nothing wrong with my CAP service - no discipline issues, no safety issues, nothing negative that I am aware of. I am gainfully employed as an engineer, no family issues, a pilot... no issues. I have been in CAP for ten years but haven't been active the last few due to health and job transfers. Most of my CAP activity ove the past two years has been supporting my daughter's CAP service by getting her to and from CAP meetings, and NCSAs and encampments... she's made it to C/2dLt and Blue Beret... I must have been doing something right... but all of a sudden for no reason I am not being allowed to join a local squadron, no real reasons given. Can anyone give me some guidance here? 
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,854
Unit: of issue

« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 08:41:39 PM »

Speaking generally (since I don't know what the local unit may or may not have done).

First, the language in CAPR 39-2 which said that the Unit Membership Board was there to review the eligibility of new applicants and transfers has been removed. Per paragraph 1.5 its "new applicants" only now.

CAPR 39-2 goes on to say this about transfers:

Quote
1.11 Transfer of Membership.  Members may transfer from one unit to another as long as they are members in good standing in their current unit of assignment. Members may not transfer to preclude an adverse action or when placed in suspended status. Individuals who misrepresent their status in order to transfer may be subject to membership termination action as outlined in CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination.

Now, I take you at your word that you're not under adverse action or suspension. 

The next paragraph, 1.11.1, goes on to explain how members may transfer when moving from one locality to another, and may transfer between units in the same locality upon approval of the unit commanders concerned.  (emphasis mine, more on that in a minute)

So it wasn't too clear whether or not you switched units in a locality or you moved to another group/wing/region or what. Still, shouldn't be that big of a deal. Its allowed under the regs. At least, under para 1.11.1.

The best bit, however, is the very next part of 1.11.1

Quote
If approved by one, but disapproved by the other, the request will be forwarded to the commander at the next higher echelon for decision.

So likely, you're still sitting on the roster of the losing unit.

Sounds like a well-formatted letter to the next higher echelon is in order, explaining that you transferred from Unit A to Unit B and Unit B has denied your transfer, citing the "Unit Membership Board" and that you're seeking a decision under CAPR 39-2. para 1.11.1. Attach your properly filled out CAPF 2A to the letter, too. :)


I'm a little shocked that a unit is sitting a membership board for a transfer. Its hard enough getting units to sit a membership board and  follow the "First Talk Guide" for new members.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
AWACS-Guy
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 08:52:20 PM »

OK, thanks for the advice. As far as I know I am in good standing with CAP. I haven't been active much in the past few years due to job transfers around the country but I am ready to get going again. I am only few few sign offs from being MO, TMP, AP and MP... I live on the border between two wings and I decided the other state's unit was much closer and apparently much more active so I wanted to be there. Just very confused right now. A little hurt as well.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 913

« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 11:45:09 AM »

Did you ask why?  I don't think your transfer can be rejected without giving you a reason. 
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AWACS-Guy
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2017, 12:49:01 PM »

Vague: reviewed your "membership portfolio", not able to improve your CAP experience, unable to effectively add you to our membership. I'm a nice guy and had all of a three minute discussion with the CC.
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,230
Unit: Worry

« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 01:27:11 PM »

Man, I wish we had that problem where we had to turn away volunteers...
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,854
Unit: of issue

« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 01:39:12 PM »

Vague: reviewed your "membership portfolio", not able to improve your CAP experience, unable to effectively add you to our membership. I'm a nice guy and had all of a three minute discussion with the CC.

I had an old CAP friend (we were cadets together, he joined the Marine Corps, I joined the Army) who took a job transfer from CA to the Midwest. He was in the CG Aux, local units were "less than satisfactory," so he said "Hey, you know, I'll look at CAP again!" He pinged me, knowing my role and asked for 411 on units local to him. I reached out to my peeps in the AO, got the hot intel and shipped off the two nearest units.

First unit, supposedly the more high-speed of the two, they showed him around, talked to him a little and then basically said "Yeah, we're not looking for new members. Thanks.." and showed him the door.  He said "They seemed real professional and active, sounded like they had a great program there, but they were totally uninterested in taking on new members. At all."

Second unit, actually closer to his house, said "Ohhh, lets talk!"   Before he could pull the trigger on membership, though, his company temporarily moved him to another state on a 9-12 month assignment not far from where we grew up. He went down to the local unit there, and now he's a member.

But that first unit, their response was utterly incomprehensible to me. I get "We're not taking new members right at this second, however, if you come back in January, we'll be doing our next cohort training and we'll take you on board and get you trained up..."  Hey, thats my jam, I get that routine.  But in further exploration, it wasn't that at all. They just flat out told him "Yeah, no, we're not taking on anybody new.." 
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,561

« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 06:36:00 PM »

Vague: reviewed your "membership portfolio", not able to improve your CAP experience, unable to effectively add you to our membership. I'm a nice guy and had all of a three minute discussion with the CC.

Everyone deserves a fair shake, it sounds like you didn't get one.

What I tell all new members, including transferee, is the same  - minimum 3 meetings before consideration, then
we talk about the expectations and opportunities of membership, in that order.

Not everyone is an automatic fit for a given situation, and it's not fair to the existing members,
nor the person being considered not to have those conversations.

There are also plenty of people who walk in the door "telling you questions", making accusations or
other wild statements about the state of their current unit / wing / the world, or are wholly inactive
at their current unit, and are getting grief about it, so they are looking for a new place to park their folder.

I also make it a point to discuss the transfer with the current CC to insure the story being told is the
real story.  You'd be surprised.

There isn't enough information here to make any sort of determination, other then to say if it was really only
3 minutes, then that's not kosher.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,145

« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 06:53:22 PM »

While it doesn't address the matter of why you weren't accepted, I would also consider if you would even want to join that unit at this point (which I'm sure you have).

If you "force your way in," it'll just get even more awkward working under/alongside a Commander and senior staff that didn't want you there for whatever reason they had.

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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 134
Unit: MER

« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2017, 07:01:50 PM »

I have absolutely had that experience, and recently...
Am geographically close to several big-ish squadrons and visited them all.
One, with a really good reputation seems to be completely ambivalent to new members - even uniformed field grades.
To each their own, I suppose.

Vague: reviewed your "membership portfolio", not able to improve your CAP experience, unable to effectively add you to our membership. I'm a nice guy and had all of a three minute discussion with the CC.

I had an old CAP friend (we were cadets together, he joined the Marine Corps, I joined the Army) who took a job transfer from CA to the Midwest. He was in the CG Aux, local units were "less than satisfactory," so he said "Hey, you know, I'll look at CAP again!" He pinged me, knowing my role and asked for 411 on units local to him. I reached out to my peeps in the AO, got the hot intel and shipped off the two nearest units.

First unit, supposedly the more high-speed of the two, they showed him around, talked to him a little and then basically said "Yeah, we're not looking for new members. Thanks.." and showed him the door.  He said "They seemed real professional and active, sounded like they had a great program there, but they were totally uninterested in taking on new members. At all."

Second unit, actually closer to his house, said "Ohhh, lets talk!"   Before he could pull the trigger on membership, though, his company temporarily moved him to another state on a 9-12 month assignment not far from where we grew up. He went down to the local unit there, and now he's a member.

But that first unit, their response was utterly incomprehensible to me. I get "We're not taking new members right at this second, however, if you come back in January, we'll be doing our next cohort training and we'll take you on board and get you trained up..."  Hey, thats my jam, I get that routine.  But in further exploration, it wasn't that at all. They just flat out told him "Yeah, no, we're not taking on anybody new.."
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
AWACS-Guy
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 09:53:11 PM »

I have left several emails and phone calls to the CC, none have been returned. I take this as [darn]ed unfriendly and quite cowardly.

Seriously though, I've been in CAP ten years now. I seem always two or three simple tasks away from getting MP, or MO or AP and I can never seem to get the plane and the instructor to finish the training. I was blocked for most of a year from getting a form 5 by a retired major general CFI who was milking the trainng flight for as much time as he could get. I had to do about eight flights to get him willing to give me the form five flight. And no, I'm not a bad pilot.

I've seen at least three friends booted out of CAP on 2Bs. All the result of some squadron commander wanting to exert his author-it-tah.

And there is hardly any missions anymore. In ten years I have only seen one actual missing airplane search and everyone sort of treated it like a joke. 

Seriously, I think I'm about done here. I can spend $5000 to $7000 a year on flying the plane just enough to remain current and minimally proficient for a mission that will never be needed and while playing along with morons like this CC. I think I've had enough and would rather put those dollars to work buying and building an RV-7 like I was before I joined CAP.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,145

« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 12:18:21 AM »

I have left several emails and phone calls to the CC, none have been returned. I take this as [darn]ed unfriendly and quite cowardly.

Seriously though, I've been in CAP ten years now. I seem always two or three simple tasks away from getting MP, or MO or AP and I can never seem to get the plane and the instructor to finish the training. I was blocked for most of a year from getting a form 5 by a retired major general CFI who was milking the trainng flight for as much time as he could get. I had to do about eight flights to get him willing to give me the form five flight. And no, I'm not a bad pilot.

I've seen at least three friends booted out of CAP on 2Bs. All the result of some squadron commander wanting to exert his author-it-tah.

And there is hardly any missions anymore. In ten years I have only seen one actual missing airplane search and everyone sort of treated it like a joke. 

Seriously, I think I'm about done here. I can spend $5000 to $7000 a year on flying the plane just enough to remain current and minimally proficient for a mission that will never be needed and while playing along with morons like this CC. I think I've had enough and would rather put those dollars to work buying and building an RV-7 like I was before I joined CAP.

I hear ya.

Similar circumstance myself with my "instructor" that I was supposed to be meeting with weekly. Every time I showed up, he was "working with somebody else." Looked like sitting at the "senior table" BS-ing to me.

His Commander and I had a chat about it. The answer I got: "You just need to hunt him down and bother him." No, that's your job, Sir. I quit trying.


As far as seeing friends getting 2B'd, that's not actually a common thing as I know of it. You hanging around some seedy units?
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MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 334

« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2017, 11:40:52 AM »


I'm a little shocked that a unit is sitting a membership board for a transfer. Its hard enough getting units to sit a membership board and  follow the "First Talk Guide" for new members.

Umm... well.... I'm in a state where the Wing Commander has insisted that not only MUST units have a membership board for TRANSFERS from other states, but that no transfer will be approved unless he has personally approved it following his checking with the other Wing Commander. I guess some "less than savory" characters moved in to our state and he was less than happy with that!
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,616

« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 12:18:57 PM »

As if "less savory" characters are looking to move into "just one wing" as it appears that state or territory is more lax in allowing "less savory" characters? What is the perception of your Wing? Not spending enough on law enforcement? Law enforcers not experienced enough?

 >:D

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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,561

« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 12:32:25 PM »

As if "less savory" characters are looking to move into "just one wing" as it appears that state or territory is more lax in allowing "less savory" characters? What is the perception of your Wing? Not spending enough on law enforcement? Law enforcers not experienced enough?

 >:D

There's a lot of states where people live near the border and hop back and forth shopping squadrons as they burn bridges and cause problems.  BTDT.

This Wing CC is only doing his due diligence, as is any Unit CC asking the 2nd and 3rd questions as to the "whys" and "what" around the transfer.
Direct conversations today avoid uncomfortable conversations tomorrow.

No Unit CC should ever accept a transfer until he has spoken personally with the current unit leadership.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,616

« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 10:00:18 PM »

Umm, yes. Commanders should find the "whys" and "what." I have no problem with that. But it appears that Mac wants to paint all transfers as "undesirables."

 
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
AWACS-Guy
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 11:47:08 PM »

If you worship the God of Abraham, don't apply to WV Wing. That's what I am getting out of this. I am not otherwise undesirable.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,561

« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 11:54:43 PM »

>If< that's true, that's messed up, and you'd have grounds for a very sustainable complaint.

Proving that, however would probably be difficult absent someone(s) being very dumb.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,337
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2017, 11:59:38 PM »

I think we're done here.

Click.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Not allowed to join a unit?
 


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