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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Review Board questions
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Author Topic: Review Board questions  (Read 8194 times)
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2017, 05:57:28 PM »

Interesting. We always have the Commander on our boards, so we always can inform the cadet of the promotion decision at the start. I've noticed that it helps our cadets converse more freely. (Despite telling cadets that the decision is made before the review starts, provided they're polite during it... most cadets still feel very nervous.)

Some units have the Commander in on the boards. Some don't. Unit SOP.

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Fubar
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Posts: 739

« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 10:36:05 PM »

And that's where "best practice" and flexibility comes in.

I'm afraid I don't see where the flexibility or the "best practice" aspect comes from:

Quote from: CAPR 60-1
5.7.2. Feedback Meetings. At least once per phase, commanders will ensure the cadet participates in a feedback meeting, which is a mentoring opportunity and discussion about the cadetís performance in the Cadet Program. Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7, and must meet the following criteria:

It goes on to list three criteria, I believe mentioned within the regulation because I don't think the pamphlet covers them. Anyway, "will operate according to" doesn't say "as a best practice, ignore if you don't like it" to me.

So am I missing something here, or is this similar to your disagreement with CAPR 60-1 contradicting CAPM 39-1?
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,573

« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2017, 10:45:45 AM »

And that's where "best practice" and flexibility comes in.

I'm afraid I don't see where the flexibility or the "best practice" aspect comes from:

Quote from: CAPR 60-1
5.7.2. Feedback Meetings. At least once per phase, commanders will ensure the cadet participates in a feedback meeting, which is a mentoring opportunity and discussion about the cadetís performance in the Cadet Program. Feedback meetings will operate according to CAPP 60-31, Cadet Staff Handbook, 2.7, and must meet the following criteria:

It goes on to list three criteria, I believe mentioned within the regulation because I don't think the pamphlet covers them. Anyway, "will operate according to" doesn't say "as a best practice, ignore if you don't like it" to me.

So am I missing something here, or is this similar to your disagreement with CAPR 60-1 contradicting CAPM 39-1?

Per R52-16, if you hold a review board, period, which is supposed to be with every promotion (with or without the cadet), the board needs to:
  • Review the cadet's profile
  • Determine if the cadet is qualified for promotion

If a cadet is present, which must be once per phase:
  • A completed CAPF 50 must be used as basis for the board's discussion
  • Materials already tested for previous achievements will not be re-tested
  • Local promotion policies (unit SOPs) will be applied consistently across all cadets

The board must be held in accordance with the Cadet Staff Handbook.

Per the Cadet Staff Handbook, the procedures for Feedback Meetings (Boards) are "suggested practices."

If a Commander is in the board, the Commander can make his/her decision right there and inform the cadet if he/she has been promoted. If the Commander is not present, and the board made a recommendation to the Commander prior to the feedback session, then the board can informed the cadet then and there. If the Commander is not present, and the board has not yet advised the Commander, thus no decision has been made, and the board should not inform the cadet that he/she has been promoted because that cadet has not yet been approved for promotion.

This is where your unit SOPs come in ("best practice"). How does the unit conduct its boards in a way that best meets their view of mentoring and providing feedback for continuous improvement? This is dependent on who is in the board and how the Commander is advised to make his/her final decision.

Some units delegate this to the Deputy Commander for Cadets, who will tell the Commander "so-and-so cadet has promoted;" the Commander accepts this. In other units, the Commander makes the call based on the advice of the Deputy Commander for Cadets. And I know of Commanders who demand to sit in on cadet boards every time they are conducted, or with a certain cadet grade (e.g., C/MSgt and higher).

Technically, a senior member does not even need to be in the feedback session. So if it's solely cadets in it, they cannot promote another cadet. That process doesn't exist.

If someone is telling a cadet they promoted, and it's not approved by the Commander, that person is wrong. Just like the Commander who tells a cadet to start wearing rank insignia 30 days before that cadet promotes in eServices. It's wrong, and in direct conflict with the regulations.

Re: 60-1 / 39-1
How do they disagree? 60-1 says there is an exception to the regulations due to safety and participation under x-conditions. It's not a disagreement; it's an exception. My personal opinion of it is outweighed (in either direction) by a regulatory exception. That's not an interfacing problem.

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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 11:59:20 AM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed.  If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,573

« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 06:00:33 PM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed. If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.

Uh, the Group CC should not be involved in that discussion.

CAPR 52-16, 5-2(a):
Quote
The unit commander is the approving authority for all achievements and awards.
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Fubar
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Posts: 739

« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 09:56:05 PM »

Per R52-16

Ah, this might be the source of my confusion, I'm quoting the new regulation CAPR 60-1, which replaces R52-16 in a couple of months. I'll go back and compare differences.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2017, 09:33:21 AM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed. If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.

Uh, the Group CC should not be involved in that discussion.

CAPR 52-16, 5-2(a):
Quote
The unit commander is the approving authority for all achievements and awards.

You are not following me.  Yes, the unit CC is the approving authority but when the unit CC disapproves Cadet Johnny's promotion and the parents are mad they go up the chain.  If that authority is delegated to the CDC then the parents can go to the squadron CC as an impartial judge.  I have seen this happen more than once where a cadet was not promoted and it actually became a huge issue despite everything being done properly and documented.  The parents went to the IG and since the unit CC is the one who withheld the promotion, it had to be brought to the Group CC for review.

Also, I'm a firm believer in delegating to the lowest level possible and if I can't trust my CDC to make the right call regarding cadet promotions then I really need to get a new CDC.  They are the ones who should know the cadets the best.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,573

« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2017, 10:30:03 AM »

When I was a squadron CC I chose to delegate board chair and promotion authority to the CDC.  They knew the cadets better than me and if a cadet was not getting promoted then there was a level of appeal if the cadet or parents disagreed. If I was on the board then the next step up would be the Group CC and I really didn't want to involve Group in any cadet promotion issues.

Uh, the Group CC should not be involved in that discussion.

CAPR 52-16, 5-2(a):
Quote
The unit commander is the approving authority for all achievements and awards.

You are not following me.  Yes, the unit CC is the approving authority but when the unit CC disapproves Cadet Johnny's promotion and the parents are mad they go up the chain.  If that authority is delegated to the CDC then the parents can go to the squadron CC as an impartial judge.  I have seen this happen more than once where a cadet was not promoted and it actually became a huge issue despite everything being done properly and documented.  The parents went to the IG and since the unit CC is the one who withheld the promotion, it had to be brought to the Group CC for review.

Also, I'm a firm believer in delegating to the lowest level possible and if I can't trust my CDC to make the right call regarding cadet promotions then I really need to get a new CDC.  They are the ones who should know the cadets the best.

Tracking. Absolutely no disagreement on anything there.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,347

« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2017, 12:15:28 PM »

You are not following me.  Yes, the unit CC is the approving authority but when the unit CC disapproves Cadet Johnny's promotion and the parents are mad they go up the chain.  If that authority is delegated to the CDC then the parents can go to the squadron CC as an impartial judge.  I have seen this happen more than once where a cadet was not promoted and it actually became a huge issue despite everything being done properly and documented.  The parents went to the IG and since the unit CC is the one who withheld the promotion, it had to be brought to the Group CC for review.

The Unit CC is always and the only approving authority for promotions. The authority can be delegated, but not the responsibility.  If
someone else is allowed to check the box in the unit, it's still in the CC's name, and supposed to be with their knowledge and blessing.

There is no "appeal to a higher authority", either implied or actual, in this regard outside an appeal based on a material failure
to follow the required processes which requires the involvement of the IGs, and starts at the Wing, outside the chain.
Any other "whine challenges" are "social", not "regulatory".

If a CC says Johnny doesn't promote, has a legitimate reason why (legitimate being subjective, but obviously can't violate a reg about retaliation, extra
local policy or requirements, etc.), and followed the denial / deferral / demotion procedures properly, Johnny doesn't promote, and absent replacing
that CC for cause (and bear in mind, command discretion / disagreement is not a cause for dismissal), Johnny's not promoting.

The Group or Wing CC can use their higher authority to promote Johnny themselves, but that is not good for order or discipline within the organization,
and certainly not something they should be doing if they otherwise have confidence in their respective CCs.

Any other conversations, appeals, etc., are in the spirit of member retention, compassion, and common sense best practices in a volunteer
environment, but there's no requirement they happen, nor regulatory support for pressure on the CC.

Group and Wing CC's are not "the next level of appeal" when someone doesn't get promoted, nor the CC when the CDC won't check the box.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 12:21:32 PM by Eclipse » Logged


TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2017, 01:00:07 PM »

And if someone doesn't approve and files a complaint, the Group CC isn't overriding the Squadron CC. It's going to go through the formal process to review the complaint and address it as needed, within protocol.

I'm assuming my Group CC would raise an eyebrow if I said I had a cadet that I didn't think should promote, wondering what was so bad that it got taken to that level. And I would expect to receive some questions from him to figure out what the problem is and assist in making that determination. But in the end, the Squadron CC will make the call.

As is happens, the only cadet I've recommended to sustained in grade has been my Commander's kid. Okay, that's not entirely true. I once accidentally promoted the wrong cadet in eServices.  :-\
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Paul Creed III
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2017, 04:40:31 PM »


I'm assuming my Group CC would raise an eyebrow if I said I had a cadet that I didn't think should promote, wondering what was so bad that it got taken to that level. And I would expect to receive some questions from him to figure out what the problem is and assist in making that determination. But in the end, the Squadron CC will make the call.


He would indeed raise an eyebrow...
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,573

« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2017, 03:51:53 PM »


I'm assuming my Group CC would raise an eyebrow if I said I had a cadet that I didn't think should promote, wondering what was so bad that it got taken to that level. And I would expect to receive some questions from him to figure out what the problem is and assist in making that determination. But in the end, the Squadron CC will make the call.


He would indeed raise an eyebrow...

Exactly, Sir.  :P  ;D

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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Review Board questions
 


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