Cold Weather Gear - ABU

[CAPDCCMOM]

^^^^ But if things were done thoroughly, and implemented correctly, what would we on Captalk ever have to do?

[THRAWN]

^^^^ But if things were done thoroughly, and implemented correctly, what would we on Captalk ever have to do?

Behave. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Twirl our thumbs...?

...look for other topics to argue...?

...get more (ES and First Aid) training...?

...clean our vans...?

...clean our acft...?

[Ned]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

[Eclipse]

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?

"Cadets are authorized to wear appropriate civilian outerwear when expressly approved by their
unit or a respective activity's Commander.  This is considered for emergency or unforeseen situations only
and is not to be considered a blanket authorization during the course of normal operations.

Non-uniform outerwear should be subdued colors and not detract from a professional appearance."

Cold weather gear has been a problem going back at least as far as the implementation of the BDU, and
there really is no good choice for wearing blues in extreme conditions (though the question could be raised
why anyone is wearing an office uniform in extreme conditions).

This weekend's forecast weather for xray's wing, for example, should preclude anyone from wearing blues or whites to
WAA.

For most members the Goretex or fleece is enough for meeting nights, with them worn together for outside ops,
as usual it should be reminded that weather which exceeds the above, with thermals as layers, probably
exceeds the common sense ORM for a CAP activity or mission.

With that said, the N-3B has been the extreme weather jacket for the USAF for decades and should be approved for CAP
members with the ABU >and< BDU.  Sans insignia, it's not necessary.

The M-65 should be grandfathered in perpetuity for cadets and seniors regardless of which feild uniform they are
wearing, to include the CFU.  Again insignia is not necessary.

[xray328]

The IL Wing Commander has authorized wear of the black watch cap this weekend for this activity only


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spam]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

"All members are reminded to not mix unauthorized civilian outerwear with approved USAF style uniform combinations, including the newly authorized ABU uniform. Members are reminded that the BDU style woodland camo field jackets and goretex outerwear and black cold weather gear are approved for wear with the ABU uniform, as well as with the Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) which may continue to be worn until the mandatory phase out date of 15 June 2021. Units and activity commanders are reminded to plan ahead when selecting uniforms of the day for cold weather activities, and are reminded that deviations (including wear of unauthorized civilian clothing) are not authorized per CAPM 39-1 without a signed Wing Supplement. Given the available uniform alternatives, "Safety" is not considered a valid rationale for deviation from uniform regulations, whatever the mission".


Ned, you're treading into ES here with your mention of field ops. Cadets - or seniors - who don't have approved outerwear should not be participating in ES in field specialties (as ES is an optional, non mandatory activity). Someone who tries to deploy with civilian gear should get a down check on Task 0001 (uniform and gear for the conditions).


It is never an "emergency" to authorize civilian gear for an optional volunteer activity that you're planning two weeks in advance (as all our CP and hopefully ES activities are supposed to be). To torture normal cold weather to be an emergency/safety issue requiring us to ignore the Supplement process is Orwellian and illogical.


Sounds like xray's Wing/CC is on it for his command (good!). Ball in his glove; next proper step would be to follow up his (presumed) verbal with an IMC and an ILWG Supplement to 39-1.


V/r
Spam

[abdsp51]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

I have at my disposal,  thermal shirts, pants, gloves, watch cap,  APECS, green fleece,  overcoat, and the old fashioned furry parka that is popular in Korea. 

I like Eclipse's verbage for civilian gear but we should put an emphasis on procurring regulation cold weather gear.

[Eclipse]

It is never an "emergency" to authorize civilian gear for an optional volunteer activity that you're planning two weeks in advance (as all our CP and hopefully ES activities are supposed to be). To torture normal cold weather to be an emergency/safety issue requiring us to ignore the Supplement process is Orwellian and illogical.

I agree 100% in principle, the practical isn't so easy.

First, there's the issue of CAP not having proper items in the uniform inventory - this has been an issue for a long time.

Next, the "unofficial cash flow waiver" has been in place since before I joined CAP.

How many times do you send an otherwise good cadet home from a meeting, or worse, encampment, because they
don't have the correct outerwear?  How many times will that happen before they quit?  And suggesting the
unit pay for it, or some other senior members, etc., doesn't scale.

There have been more then a few "Maj C/ABs" at encampment because my jacket was placed on a shivering cadet
(for use as a 2-man shelter).

I know what the regs say, that's not the question.

[THRAWN]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Surely not just the Gortex Parka and the fleece?  That doesn't seem warm enough to this Californian.

IOW, what is it that we should authorize for the troops to keep them safe and warm in the field?

Any suggestions on wording a "civilian outer garment workaround" for cadets?


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

I have at my disposal,  thermal shirts, pants, gloves, watch cap,  APECS, green fleece,  overcoat, and the old fashioned furry parka that is popular in Korea. 

I like Eclipse's verbage for civilian gear but we should put an emphasis on procurring regulation cold weather gear.

Seconded. Treat coats like sunglasses: conservative in style and color, unadorned with visible logos, etc

I'm all for under uniform layering. Once upon a time, I was assigned as a patrol boat crewman. Layering up kept me toasty, even in the freeze of February.

[Spam]

It is never an "emergency" to authorize civilian gear for an optional volunteer activity that you're planning two weeks in advance (as all our CP and hopefully ES activities are supposed to be). To torture normal cold weather to be an emergency/safety issue requiring us to ignore the Supplement process is Orwellian and illogical.

I agree 100% in principle, the practical isn't so easy.

First, there's the issue of CAP not having proper items in the uniform inventory - this has been an issue for a long time.

Next, the "unofficial cash flow waiver" has been in place since before I joined CAP.

How many times do you send an otherwise good cadet home from a meeting, or worse, encampment, because they
don't have the correct outerwear?  How many times will that happen before they quit?  And suggesting the
unit pay for it, or some other senior members, etc., doesn't scale.

There have been more then a few "Maj C/ABs" at encampment because my jacket was placed on a shivering cadet
(for use as a 2-man shelter).

I know what the regs say, that's not the question.

The answer is to stop planning outdoors activities in cold weather, and/or by making it clear that you need the required list of gear to attend (by limiting participation to those who are properly turned out).


- Winter encampment? Really? See the packing list:  "no more - no less". Why would that be different now?
- Winter SAREX? Cool. See the gear task list. Very clear to all of us.
- Wreath laying? Fine. UOD is Class As and approved blues. Etc.


If you let a young cadet stay - and shiver - at a winter encampment because you let them in the door without the required cold weather gear, well, that's turned into a safety issue because of your hazardous attitude, not because of the uniform regs. YES, you should send them home. YES, you should turn away an FNG at an overnight FTX who shows without a cold rated bag, or with some Scooby Doo kids gear that could cause hypothermia. 

We need to manage expectations here, everyone... volunteer enthusiasm needs to be tempered by ORM and adherence to procedure. We have approved waivers to wear BDU gear and to continue wearing BDU gear; lets not pretend that the advent of ABUs has created a crisis for members who wink at uniform regs (i.e. if you put a jacket on a C/MAJ in years past, don't blame the sketchy implementation of ABUs for that - blame overly permissive management for putting him at risk).


R/
Spam

[Spam]

PS - on managing expecations.

"Otherwise good cadets" and their parents will understand if we establish and are consistent with a uniform and safety policy that establishes guidance up front, and enforces good planning.  Cadets interested in aviation and the military had better get it straight NOW that checklists and planning are necessary.

R
Spam

[Eclipse]

You didn't really answer the question. 

In the Midwest in April, it can be 65 one weekend and 20 with wet snow the next (or even day-to-day).

Mom had to make a decision as to get a CAP coat or something the kid can wear the rest of the time.
She's burned CEAP on the activity fees and finally got the kid some ABUs that fit. She has no more money
to buy additional items.

So the kid is safe and dry, but non-compliant.

With safety a non-factor, how do you send them home?  What do you say to mom when she's surrounded by
seniors who can't read a scale, or ignore other regs (or are in a $17 golf shirt and a sweet North Face) while
you're packing her stuff back in the car?  Not to mention the very real possibility that this is cadet #7 or 12 in one
van from the next state over?

TLC says we should always work with a cadet's best interest at heart.

The principle dissolves at the practical, yet this is ignored when the regs are written.

[Spam]

I DID answer your question.

1. Don't plan encampments in the winter in the Midwest, OR

2. Publish the mandatory packing list well ahead of time, coupled to guidance from local leaders to make sure parents understand "no more, no less".


CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
"1.2.3.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various
climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major
part of the combinations described in this publication. The CAP/CC and other commanders may specify
the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron,
group, wing, region, and national functions. All commanders must be mindful of the objective of
attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and
will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements".


Should you hold an encampment in the winter in the Midwest, a freakin uniform coat is not "unreasonable".


V/r
Spam

[Ned]

Here's an honest question from a guy who lives in a part of the country where even a overnight freeze is a rare thing:

In freezing (and below) weather, are the currently authorized ABU outer garments (some combination of the fleece and the gortex parka) warm enough for field work ?  Especially with just an ABU hat?

It doesn't feel that way to me.

The Army issued me things like a fur-trimmed overparka and Mickey Mouse boots anytime they asked me to go play in the snow.  Even at temperatures in the 20-30 degree range. My skinny body could not hang with just a gortex parka, even with thermals below.

As a practical matter, outdoor activities and training are almost always a Good Thing for cadets.  I don't want to get stuck in a loop where we simply cannot have outdoor cadet activities in the field just because it snowed.

[SarDragon]

So remind me.  What do our AF colleagues wear when it is really, really cold outside?

Ned Lee
National CP Manager

WIWOAD (admittedly a while ago), the military folks I had the opportunity to observe in cold weather ops (primarily USAF and USN) were issued organizational gear as needed. It belonged to the unit, and was issued and collected up as the seasons changed. This was over and above any regular clothing items. CAP doesn't currently have this capacity, and I don't see it ever happening.

[ETA - I see that you added that in a later post, but here it is for the less informed.]

[CAPDCCMOM]

Ned,the ORM for snowballs for our Precious Cadet Snowflake??

But Seriously, people need to use their brain cell. If we let Cadets know what cold weather gear is needed and allowed, they need to get it. As for the "I can't afford it", turn off you cable TV, that frees up $100 per month.

It's about priorities, wear the uniform properly or not at all.

[Spam]

When I pinged COL Greenwood on this issue six months ago (starting in JUN16, with a followup in SEP16 to remind him of the extant holes in the approval letters) he concurred, stated that he'd get on it, and urged me to remind everyone that cold weather clothing is not strictly an outerwear shell issue alone.

Proper protection starts at the skin, with layering. Thermal underwear, layering of shirts and liners to trap and retain heated air, replacement of sweaty (wet) clothing, the use of the field jacket liners with the coats, the use of the existing hoods for the field jackets and goretex coats, etc. etc. etc.

• There is plenty of approved gear within the existing BDU ensemble which is valid until 2021.

• 
  There are adequate work arounds in place now (BDU outerwear with ABUs) to mitigate the risk for most situations.

• There's no reason whatsoever to cry emergency here as long as activities are properly being planned and cold weather TTPs are being used - and that people are told that if they want to play in some operational cases, they need to buy the gear (same as it ever was).

If a member cannot afford the required clothing to operate safely in the conditions, then they should save up until a summer encampment, or a summer FTX/SAREX. Alternately, some units (like mine) do stock a bunch of field jackets/liners for temp issue on a F37.

V/r
Spam

[Eclipse]

Should you hold an encampment in the winter in the Midwest, a freakin uniform coat is not "unreasonable".

Agreed - are the rules different at Frostbite?  I see several cadets being very happy and safe but non-compliant.

Just asking.

[Spam]

In 2000, I was commanding a unit in MDWG.
That event is now an AFAM under an IC from another unit, who is fairly on point.

V/r
Spam