Civil air patrol CAC Cards

[goblin]

Noted

[SarDragon]

CAP has changed its ID cards several times. Adding a barcode to the back wouldn't be that difficult.

OK, add a bar code. Now what? What's going to read it? What data will it contain? What is the data going to be matched to? Where is the matching data going to reside? And, my favorite question of all time - Who's going to pay for all this?

OK, five real Qs. Got real answers for all of them?

And, finally, what's the plan to put all this together?

[abdsp51]

CAP has changed its ID cards several times. Adding a barcode to the back wouldn't be that difficult.

OK, add a bar code. Now what? What's going to read it? What data will it contain? What is the data going to be matched to? Where is the matching data going to reside? And, my favorite question of all time - Who's going to pay for all this?

OK, five real Qs. Got real answers for all of them?

And, finally, what's the plan to put all this together?

Winner winner, chicken dinner.....

Plus DBIDS contains major PII as well so no way is it going to be accessed by us for our own coding.

[goblin]

I'm obviously not a DBIDS pro, but in my limited experience I'm aware that they can read barcodes.

1) add barcodes to ID (not too tech savvy, but I'm assuming this wouldn't be too difficult)
2) if base access is required, register on base with DBIDS scanner. Member info would be loaded into the system.
3-4) see 2
5) not sure how much it would cost, so no idea?

You guys are real quick to start an argument.  If we are playing the "what if" game, that's how I would see it happen.

Once again, not an expert.

[SarDragon]

I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?

[goblin]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

[coudano]

OP you want a  CAC card here's what you need to do: \

1) Goto Recruiter
2) Take ASVAB
3) Goto MEPS
4) Sign Contract
5) Goto Basic/Advanced training
6) Pass above

Then you can have a CAC card and go to the commissary all you want.  There are many facets to the AF family and not all f them have the same privileges.  There is more that goes into issuing a CAC card than just passing the FBI background check.  That check is not a full background check required for service and not every civilian contractor gets a CAC card.

There is a lot that goes into access to places and simply because you are CAP does not and should not grant you or any other member access to the commissary, BX, etc.  You want those all the time see above.

It's not as hard as all that...
you could become an employee, vendor, or contractor on base,
which would get you access, sometimes a CAC, and in some cases even access to shop.


The commissaries i've been in lately, require you to scan your 'privilege card' which is your CAC in some cases, but a military dependent id works too, as well as some other options.  I'm not really sure if different cards are allowed to buy different things, but that technology certainly exists, if you look at wic and foodstamp programs...  Given the financial situation of DECA and AAFES, I would think they would be open to any and every revenue source they could get their hands on (including giving CAP members access to shop at their online outlets).



Now, I mean...

How far is the gulf between the private contractor masseus that sells massage therapy at the base wellness center two days a week, and members of a CAP squadron that meet in a base facility (which they mostly permanently occupy) one night a week, in addition to special activities?

Sure, one is providing services for pay, to military members and their families.
And the other is...   well, sort of doing the same thing, in a very round about way...

I duno, it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to me.




//Also apart from our current id cards being a little flimsier than they used to be, whatever.  When I joined, we had the blue and white ones that were REALLY flimsy.  That was -NOT- more professional.  That's not a comment on the profesionality or not of our current card...


//Also, CAC does short to common access card, but in the bigger picture and the longer run, CAC should be thought of more as common access credential.    Doesn't have to be a card, and eventually, it probably won't be.

[abdsp51]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.

[Mitchell 1969]

I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?

It's easier than it seems. It's cheaper than it seems. If USAF wanted it, it would happen. It hasn't happened, so...

[abdsp51]

OP you want a  CAC card here's what you need to do: \

1) Goto Recruiter
2) Take ASVAB
3) Goto MEPS
4) Sign Contract
5) Goto Basic/Advanced training
6) Pass above

Then you can have a CAC card and go to the commissary all you want.  There are many facets to the AF family and not all f them have the same privileges.  There is more that goes into issuing a CAC card than just passing the FBI background check.  That check is not a full background check required for service and not every civilian contractor gets a CAC card.

There is a lot that goes into access to places and simply because you are CAP does not and should not grant you or any other member access to the commissary, BX, etc.  You want those all the time see above.

It's not as hard as all that...
you could become an employee, vendor, or contractor on base,
which would get you access, sometimes a CAC, and in some cases even access to shop.


The commissaries i've been in lately, require you to scan your 'privilege card' which is your CAC in some cases, but a military dependent id works too, as well as some other options.  I'm not really sure if different cards are allowed to buy different things, but that technology certainly exists, if you look at wic and foodstamp programs...  Given the financial situation of DECA and AAFES, I would think they would be open to any and every revenue source they could get their hands on (including giving CAP members access to shop at their online outlets).



Now, I mean...

How far is the gulf between the private contractor masseus that sells massage therapy at the base wellness center two days a week, and members of a CAP squadron that meet in a base facility (which they mostly permanently occupy) one night a week, in addition to special activities?

Sure, one is providing services for pay, to military members and their families.
And the other is...   well, sort of doing the same thing, in a very round about way...

I duno, it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to me.




//Also apart from our current id cards being a little flimsier than they used to be, whatever.  When I joined, we had the blue and white ones that were REALLY flimsy.  That was -NOT- more professional.  That's not a comment on the profesionality or not of our current card...


//Also, CAC does short to common access card, but in the bigger picture and the longer run, CAC should be thought of more as common access credential.    Doesn't have to be a card, and eventually, it probably won't be.

There is a big difference.  That madseus has a sponsor and employer who chances are paid for their background check.  Contractors have a lengthy proceess to get their cards and it's not cheap by any means and not all of them are granted access to facilities.

So who is going to sponsor and pay for all o that to happen? 

[abdsp51]

I'm not starting an argument. Far from it. I'm just looking at the reality of the problem.

My point is that you have a very incomplete understanding of what's involved in making this happen. If it was simple, it would already be in place. I don't have any better answer for my questions than you do, nor do most others. They are hard questions, and implementation will be neither easy nor cheap. We're likely talking tens of thousands of dollars. Whose budget is that going to come out of, if some plan is actually implemented?

It's easier than it seems. It's cheaper than it seems. If USAF wanted it, it would happen. It hasn't happened, so...

Sir its not that simple.  and since we are talking at the min AF wide not that cheap.

[coudano]

There is a big difference.  That madseus has a sponsor and employer who chances are paid for their background check.  Contractors have a lengthy proceess to get their cards and it's not cheap by any means and not all of them are granted access to facilities.

So who is going to sponsor and pay for all o that to happen?

So you're saying the masseus can't buy a bottle of tea from the cooler at the shopette on her way to work?  Or for that matter the person who works behind the counter at the shopette?

--i'm not clear on whether the official rules allow them to do that or not,  but common sense (as well as personal first hand eye witness expereince) tells me it happens all the time and isn't a big deal.

Senior members have already had a background check.
Just sayin.




So it's fifth tuesday fun nite at the local base composite squadron.
Can anybody there (even a nonmember parent) pick up the phone and order pizzas for the whole squadron, delivery from the on-base Marco's Pizza and delivery, delivered to the squadron's meeting facility?  And paid with a personal credit card?

I think common sense says yes.

And once you realize that, where do you draw the line, and why?

[abdsp51]

There is a big difference.  That madseus has a sponsor and employer who chances are paid for their background check.  Contractors have a lengthy proceess to get their cards and it's not cheap by any means and not all of them are granted access to facilities.

So who is going to sponsor and pay for all o that to happen?

So you're saying the masseus can't buy a bottle of tea from the cooler at the shopette on her way to work?  Or for that matter the person who works behind the counter at the shopette?

--i'm not clear on whether the official rules allow them to do that or not,  but common sense (as well as personal first hand eye witness expereince) tells me it happens all the time and isn't a big deal.

Senior members have already had a background check.
Just sayin.




So it's fifth tuesday fun nite at the local base composite squadron.
Can anybody there (even a nonmember parent) pick up the phone and order pizzas for the whole squadron, delivery from the on-base Marco's Pizza and delivery, delivered to the squadron's meeting facility?  And paid with a personal credit card?

I think common sense says yes.

And once you realize that, where do you draw the line, and why?

The background check for that card is much more detailed than what we do. 

And yes by the AFI she should not be buying anything at the Shoppette the AAFES employee has limited purchasing ability with AAFES.

And yes again by AFI non DOD ID card holders are to use facilities without a DOD card holder present.. Which means non member and card holder mommy shouldn't be calling the local on base pizza place for anything. 

Does it happen yes it does.  Is action ever taken likely not. 

Different cards grant different privileges.  And a contractors card does not grant them anyhing extra besides base acces, area access and nipr access without it beig in the contract. 

[SarDragon]

On-base outlets like Mickey D's, Panda Express, and even Joe's Pizza, are contracted to operate on base, and have no limits on who may buy there. The same has been the case for exchange cafeterias. Shopette rules vary, but many are allowed to sell to folks w/o DOD cards, as long as they aren't buying cigarettes or alcohol.

Exchange employees are permitted to shop there, again minus the cigs and alcohol, and possibly some high-ticket items.

Also, I'm going to reiterate that DeCA and Exchanges operate under two different systems. Exchanges have much more liberal rules. As an appropriated fund agency, commissaries are much more limited on who they may sell to.

[abdsp51]

Ok so rough math for this discussion for just cards alone and not the equipment to print them and input them its 24k (rounded up).  That is just for senior members alone and not including cadets who are 18+.

Labor costs for the year if it was AF SF type SrA is about 8k if that is solely what they are doing daily. This doesn't factor in if there is a civilian who does the badges.  So with that you are looking at a pretty good chunk of change for the org to have DBIDS cards issued to every SM in the US at a local AF installation.  Now if you multiply that by the number of installations and factor in the costs for the background checks as well (Sorry Ma blue is not going to accept but "we had one done by the FBI upon becoming members") the costs go up. 

[goblin]

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.

Ok

[lordmonar]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.

Actually that could work.   DBIBs is a national network.   It is with in the whelm of possibility to change our bar codes on our CAP IDs to be scanned by the DBIBs system.  NHQ at Maxwell transfer/enter our membership data into the DBIBs system and then go from there.

From the point where an employer provides the required information to the USAF and then that is process usually takes about two weeks (faster for individuals with special needs).

The back ground checks are pretty cursory....looking for any major flags on the major HLS, FBI or Police databases....and they don't cost anything.....at least they don't charge contractors to pay for DBIBs cards or CAC cards.....it is part of the price the USAF sucks up as part doing buisness.

And this I know because A....I'm a contractor and have to deal with this stuff.  B....on of my CAP members own a company where he has a contract with the base and has to do this with his employees all the time.  C....we have been working with the base security manager to try to fit the CAP shaped Peg into a Contractor Shaped Whole in the security regulations.....with little success so far.   We have been using big hammers to for it in.....with a some success  (we are still meeting on base an still getting everyone on every week).

So.....as I said before.   

It seems we are making some head way on this issue.  Incremental....but head way.  I expect once we fall under ACC we will jump forward with a permanant solution.   

[arajca]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.

Actually that could work.   DBIBs is a national network.   It is with in the whelm of possibility to change our bar codes on our CAP IDs to be scanned by the DBIBs system.  NHQ at Maxwell transfer/enter our membership data into the DBIBs system and then go from there.

Except that each base requires its own DBIDS card, which is why I have two, soon to be three.

[lordmonar]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.

When I first had to register with DBIDS (when it was new) all they did was scan my ID and input my information.  DBIDS has the ability to read almost any barcode.

Obviously CACs are not the answer, but  adding a barcode to the current CAP ID and then registering those who actually need base access isn't outside the realm of possibility. It wouldn't be any more tasking than trying to get base access now, and would only serve to reduce future access requests.

YMMV

You have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this system at all.

Actually that could work.   DBIBs is a national network.   It is with in the whelm of possibility to change our bar codes on our CAP IDs to be scanned by the DBIBs system.  NHQ at Maxwell transfer/enter our membership data into the DBIBs system and then go from there.

Except that each base requires its own DBIDS card, which is why I have two, soon to be three.

That is because you may be servicing three different contracts on three different bases.   It is possible to issue the cards granting access to multiple bases.  That they don't do that is a limitation of policy not a limitation of the system.

[goblin]

^ exactly