Enlisted Troops Saluting CAP "Officers"

[vorteks]

^Yes, that's my point.  People improperly trained, inexperienced, or more interested in making
some bizarre statements then just saluting and moving on.

Well, I don't doubt that improper training is involved somewhere in this business, but my friends who served active duty get the benefit of the doubt from me concerning military customs and courtesies.

When you are in a CAP uniform, especially at a CAP activity, you are not in "civilian attire" in the context of
151, and the expectation is that full courtesies apply at all times.

OK I'll buy that. I think I feel comfortable enough now after this discussion to return the salute next time, even with a bare head. I guess I'll have to ask the commander whether there needs to be some clarification for the cadets.

Thanks everyone!

[vorteks]

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

Oh really. Why is that?

[coudano]

to return the salute next time, even with a bare head.

You do understand that a cadet might very well report to you (an officer) indoors, right?
In fact it is an item that cadets are specifically trained and tested on in achievement 1.
Are you going to return that salute, though neither you nor the cadet is wearing a hat?

That said, see again my post about getting wrapped around the axle about what and when, and forgetting to pay attention to the why(!)

[Private Investigator]

You should have returned the salute.

But good on you to nod and accept the greeting.

Remember that airman are taught to "when in doubt, whip it out".  Some bases have forgien or join service officers and unlike here on CAP TALK where we are all experts on the uniforms of every service in existence.....most airman look for shiny on the hat!.

It is NEVER....NEVER disrespectful to return a salute.

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

Salute me, I salute back. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

CAP is not military.

Some services salute with hat, others don't.

As an example look how each service abbreviates grade.

One has LtCol, another uses LT COL.

Air Force abbreviates First Lieutenant as 1st Lt, Army as 1Lt, Marine Corps 1stLt.

See the spaces and nuances?

(Guide from http://www.colorado.edu/NROTC/forms/US%20Military%20Rank%20Abbreviations.pdf)

So if your military friend is from the Army, he is wrong according to the Air Force. And so on.

The BEST RESOURCE to use is... What the CAP does! [/u]Ask your CAP friends!

[THRAWN]

You should have returned the salute.

But good on you to nod and accept the greeting.

Remember that airman are taught to "when in doubt, whip it out".  Some bases have forgien or join service officers and unlike here on CAP TALK where we are all experts on the uniforms of every service in existence.....most airman look for shiny on the hat!.

It is NEVER....NEVER disrespectful to return a salute.

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

Salute me, I salute back. 

Glad I'm not the only one that was raised with "Walk my post from flank to flank, salute all...ahem....people....above my rank..." It's been said, but if you're saluted, return it. Don't overthink it.

[vorteks]

You do understand that a cadet might very well report to you (an officer) indoors, right?

Of course. I have a cadet in the program who's been through it a couple of times. It's also covered quite clearly in CAPP 151, but that's a specific situation that doesn't necessarily inform the one I was in.

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

Wow... really? I thought just about everything we do, especially what we teach cadets, is based on military customs and courtesies.

CAP is not military.

Obviously, but see my above remark.

So if your military friend is from the Army, he is wrong according to the Air Force. And so on.

I get your point, although in this case my friends from different service branches were of one accord in their reaction to the situation.

The BEST RESOURCE to use is... What the CAP does! [/u]Ask your CAP friends!

Ergo my post to this forum.

And thanks again for all the responses. I know what to do next time, even though there seems to be no clear rule documented for that particular situation. The only loose end is the fact that cadets aren't saluting seniors outside who are not wearing a cover. There must be something to it, but I don't know the source of it, and I'm not going to be the one to rile anyone up over it.

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

That's interesting, and I'd still like to know where you're coming from on that one.

[Eclipse]

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

Wow... really? I thought just about everything we do, especially what we teach cadets, is based on military customs and courtesies.

"Based on" is not "equal to".  As I mentioned before, the military doesn't have 1/2 its members in a different uniform with an
ambiguous nature.  If everyone in the organization is compelled to wear the same uniform, including the requirement to
wear a hat, then "no hat no salute" might be a shorthand that works in most cases.  That doesn't fit CAP for a number of reasons.

So if your military friend is from the Army, he is wrong according to the Air Force. And so on.

I get your point, although in this case my friends from different service branches were of one accord in their reaction to the situation.

Consult the "Book of Shuman" for why this is an issue.

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

That's interesting, and I'd still like to know where you're coming from on that one.

It's basically on the same level as saying "thank you" when someone says "I love you."

[Luis R. Ramos]

Veritec,

This is my reply to your post #26. Obviously I will not nit-pick and quote.

However everything "based on the military" that is really relevant to CAP's needs have already been incorporated into CAP. There is no need to try to reinvent the wheel which is what you did by asking your service friends.

[vorteks]

It's basically on the same level as saying "thank you" when someone says "I love you."

I see. Thanks.

However everything "based on the military" that is really relevant to CAP's needs have already been incorporated into CAP. There is no need to try to reinvent the wheel which is what you did by asking your service friends.

I wasn't trying to reinvent anything, I'm just trying to understand. The answer to my specific situation doesn't seem to exist in any CAP documentation, and it wasn't covered in any training I received so far. And while most of you came back with the same message (and I get it now), at least one indicated he would've done the same thing I did, and he was the only one who offered a reference.

Furthermore, this was not an incident between two CAP members; since the other party was a USAF airman, I don't see how my former service member friends' experience and opinions are not relevant. They absolutely are. Not to mention the fact that, as I look through these forums, very many of you are also current or former service members whose military experience often informs your take on things. I think that's completely valid.

[Eclipse]

This is another situation where the multi-form causes issues of confusion, and no one has taken the
effort to write simple sentences to clear things up.

CAPP 151 might infer saluting is primarily in military-style uniform, but CAPP 3 does not make that distinction.

It references "civilian clothing" but a CAP uniform is not, "civilian clothing" at least in a CAP context.

The nice thing is that we've been having these discussions for decades, and no one see fit to spend 30 minutes
and clear it up under the auspices of "This isn't our most important problem...".

No, it isn't.  It's just a simple, baseline issue whose ambiguity cause constant unnecessary confusion
and contributes to the unnecessary, far too loud background noise that contributes to the general malaise and
lack of member comfort.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, the new 151 is a little bit lacking on the finer points of C&C such as this issue, so you're probably not going to find an official CAP reference directly on this point, however as we are talking about customs the guidance given here that you always return a salute if you're in a CAP military-style uniform, should suffice.

[Eclipse]

And this:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing."

[MIKE]

... I would try to avoid "Thank you." if at all possible...

That's interesting, and I'd still like to know where you're coming from on that one.

It's basically on the same level as saying "thank you" when someone says "I love you."

It comes across as pompous/entitled.  You're basically saying "Thank you" to the junior for acknowledging that you are senior.  "Thank you, Airman for your exercise of military courtesy."  If instead you treat the salute and acknowledgments of each other as a greeting much like you would a handshake you'll come across better... even if on its face that is what you both are doing.

[vorteks]

It comes across as pompous/entitled.  You're basically saying "Thank you" to the junior for acknowledging that you are senior.  "Thank you, Airman for your exercise of military courtesy."  If instead you treat the salute and acknowledgments of each other as a greeting much like you would a handshake you'll come across better... even if on its face that is what you both are doing.

Got it. (Although in this case I hope my tone and body language could only have conveyed humility.)

And this:

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing."

And in the same paragraph it goes on to conclude:

"In such instances, the commander typically would
verbally acknowledge the salute, but not return it."

Not quite the same situation, I know. But because of the uniform confusion you mentioned above, it's the thing that was on my mind at the time.

... however as we are talking about customs the guidance given here that you always return a salute if you're in a CAP military-style uniform, should suffice.

Works for me, and that's what I'll do going forward.

[vorteks]

... but a CAP uniform is not, "civilian clothing" at least in a CAP context.

Well, except for the polo:

"For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies
is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform
combinations except the polo shirt and blazer"

That is... until you put on the new black fleece with your grade insignia. I guess. 

[Eclipse]

... but a CAP uniform is not, "civilian clothing" at least in a CAP context.

Well, except for the polo:

"For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies
is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform
combinations except the polo shirt and blazer"

The golf shirt may not be considered a "salute-worthy" uniform, but it is also not
"civilian clothing" within a CAP context.

That is... until you put on the new black fleece with your grade insignia. I guess. 

More places things don't align.

[SarDragon]

it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

Where does this nonsense come from?

It comes from how people in the military and CAP were taught eons ago - no hat, no salute.

[Eclipse]

And eons ago is where it should stay.

[NIN]

It comes from how people in the military and CAP sea services were taught eons ago - no hat, no salute.

FTFY.  CAP and the Army (and I suppose the AF) have saluted indoors, sans chapeau, since at least 1981, and I suspect before that even.  Unlike the Navy & Marines, who do not.