If you were a gambling man...

[lordmonar]

Master Sergeant, I believe you take the position you do because you are able to.

No I take my position because I'm a leader in a volunteer organization and I know how we think.  Who wants to hear a bunch of whinny kids complain when their pet peeve is not adopted.  Who wants to wade through 100 pages of "I think we need to bring back the CSU".   

My position on what uniform we should wear....has always been.....we all need to wear the USAF uniform....if the USAF will not let us....we all need to wear the SAME uniform.  My uniform preference is the same as your.  I got not problem with the Grey and Whites....excpet we need to get Vanguard to make a set of gray slacks that are the same color and fabric.   

If you go back to the beginning of my activity on CT or Cadet Stuff....that has always been my stance.

So.....it is not because I meet weight and grooming standard.  I defend the NUC because I understand where they are comming from and why they made their decision.....and I don't take it personally.

To my knowledge, and please correct me if I am incorrect, you are able to wear the USAF type uniform, and you do not have medical conditions prohibiting you from doing so.  I am glad for that.  I would not wish what I have on anyone.

I used to be able to.  Now I cannot.  I have a medical condition (medication side effects) that has made me gain way too much weight (and my doctor confirmed this is the cause).  I could stop taking the medication and watch the pounds drop off, but chances are if I did that my wife would be all-too-soon burying me.

To the best of my knowledge, other similar organizations (NSCC, CGAUX, even some SDF's) don't kick out "fat and fuzzies" either, nor do they put them in a separate uniform.

I don't know what NSCC is...but CGAUX and SDF's are not associated with the USAF.....and this all stems from the fact that a) the USAF does not want our fat and fuzzies to ware their uniforms....and b) A lot of people in CAP want to wear USAF uniforms.  What the CG does...or what a particular state says is okay.....is up to them.  I agree we could use those arguments when you are talking to the USAF and trying to convince them to change their policy.....but CAP must suffer the pleasure of the USAF when it comes to uniforms.

I have a useless uniform hanging in my closet...a uniform I was proud to wear...hanging alongside a uniform I loathe wearing.  If that sounds bitter, guilty as charged and no apologies given.

I feel no connection with the history of CAP, no connection with the Air Force, no connection with aviation, period, and certainly no esprit de corps with a colourless uniform.  Granted, it is marginally better than the former colourless uniform in that rank/badges can be worn on it...but the powers that be chose to keep the same colourless configuration.  Just a change of shirt colour and adding headgear would add a lot to it, but they say, "no, you can't have that."

I understand your pain......I don't care....but I understand it.  You hate the Gray and Whites and you take it personally that "no one" is listining to you and your suggestions.

I thoroughly disagree with your take that NUC did the best for the "overall good."  They killed a popular uniform for apocryphal reasons (Colonel Lee, I know you and I have discussed this privately) and absolutely refuse to make any changes to the present "alternative" uniform.

First the NUC did not kill the CSU......a) it was not popular with the USAF nor was it popular with a lot of CAP people.   It was gaining popularity (at least as far as I could see) when it was killed.....but there you go.
Second....yes they refused to make any changes to the current uniform....because they did not see a need for it.  The "costs" outweigh the "benifits".    It is simple as that.    You may not like it...but there you go.

That is not "making the best compromise."  It is, at best, argumentum ad temperantiam, and, as some do, to blame it on the Air Force ("eek! any change we make will tick the Air Force off!), is again, at best, argumentum e silentio.

Evidence proves otherwise.  CAP instituted BBDU's and a blue flight/utility suit, which, while not universally popular, are nonetheless well-liked...and there is no confusion with the Air Force, even though the blue jumpsuit is virtually identical to a SAC missileer's suit (I know, I have one).

There is no such thing as a "best compromise" someone always gets screwed on a compromise.  I said it was a compromise to a crappy situation between the USAF's wants and needs and CAP (us not the corporation) wants and needs.

Also.....it is hard to figure out the logic of anything that the USAF thinks some time....the USAF (in general) hated the fact that the missileers (and others) wore the blue flight bag.   When they all got forced to switch they were pissed...then the USAF flier types got bent that non "fliers" are wearing the green flight bag......so those same people probably cared less that we got blue flight bags.

They have the ability and power to achieve an intelligent compromise, which will not please everyone (as you correctly said), though will likely certainly reduce the "batch of unhappy people."  I reject such a notion anyway...what good is there for an organization to keep a subset of people who are unhappy and actively make them stay unhappy?

Welll.....I guess I got say....when you are on the CSAG or the National Commander then what you reject or don't reject may mean something.  Look I don't mean to say your opinion is not important or invalid, it is just that you keep forgetting to add the lines "From where I sit..." to that statement.   Capt CyBorg sees XYZ as the most important issue....but the NUC or the National Commander my have access to other information or other points of view that don't match with yours.

I was in the ANG.  I know how the military works: "do it/wear it/don't ask questions, etc."  My dad hated it when the Army switched from the Ike jacket to the green "Vietnam-era" service dress and wore his Ike until the last possible day he could (I have it in my closet) without disobeying orders.

When the Coast Guard switched from very-slightly-modified Navy uniforms to their current dress, they kept an eye on the history of the CG/Revenue Cutter Service and its other predecessors.  I have not met anyone in the CG who would want to go back to wearing Navy uniforms.

However, as many point out, CAP is not the military...we are a group of volunteers who give of our time, talent and (especially!) treasure.

To knowingly take actions that negatively impact esprit de corps is either just wrong or else beyond my ability to comprehend.

Well that's where you are wrong...they did not take action that negatively impacted esprit de corps......they took action, that in their opinion provided the best outcome for ALL the players involved.   

Some times you got to do stuff that will not make you a well liked individual.  The NUC may have made changes that would make you and people who feel like you happy....but then that same action may piss off a whole other bunch of people.   Did you ever think of that....how would YOUR propose changes affect other people?

I realise that, just as Colonel Lee comes from the background of being a barrister and solicitor, I come from the seemingly-incongruous backgrounds of psychology (especially social psychology, as in Stanley Milgram) - trying to figure out the impact of action/lack of action on subsets/subcultures (and less so cultures as a whole) and information technology (where virtually everything is 1 or 0, on or off, "is" or "ain't").

Also, I attempt to employ Socratic questioning to get answers...even though answers may not be immediately present, or at all.

Asking probing questions can be annoying to those who do not share such a mindset.  I realise that, although it is not my intent to annoy (I do well enough with that on my own without trying!), and I will never intentionally demean someone else, whether on CT or in the "real" world.

Look I know.....it sucks....it sucks bad.    IIWGFAD (If I Were God For A Day)....I would have us into a single USAF uniform with just enough distinctiveness to keep the USAF happy is a heart beat.

I also agree that the multi-gray pants reduces our "professional" appearance.....and again IIWGDAD I would develop a set of acceptable Gray Shade 121xx pants and skirts for us (assuming I did not get us all into USAF uniforms).

But I'm not God.

Like wise neither is the NUC.   The NUC had nothing to do with the CSU fiasco...so stop harping on that. 
The NUC had a big big problem on its plate.....and the tackled it as best they could...considering there were all sort of personalities on the committee...each with their pet ideal.   What they did though.....was to focus THIS round of changes to doing what really really really needed to be done with the uniform.......FIX THE FREAKING MANUAL....which by the Drafts I have see....they have done an excellent job.

Still not happy with the uniforms......the new 39-1 has a clear method for suggesting improvements......knock yourself out.   
But please....please....stop implying that the NUC does not care about the rank and file membership....because IMHO that is simply not the case.
YMMV

[Panache]

Every individual is going to have their preference...

Irrelevant.

it's a uniform, not a fashion statement.  If it's not "uni" it fails from zero.

That's the only thing you are harping on?!?!

This actually happened today, a couple of hours ago:

CAP was invited to be at the center stage for a Memorial Day service by a coalition of Vet groups.  Our squadron was the primary, but we also had members from surrounding squadrons taking part.  The local media was covering the event.

It was "requested" by the VFW leadership that those members in G/Ws stand off to the side, because "two different uniforms was confusing" and "you aren't wearing the same uniform as your cadets."  Since we were the invited guests, the CC (himself in G/Ws) agreed.

As such, those in the corporate uniform, many of themselves who were actual vets, were not able to take part except as observers off to the side.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^That is unacceptable, though you'll no doubt find those on CT who say "that's just the way it is...suck it up."

[lordmonar]

Every individual is going to have their preference...

Irrelevant.

it's a uniform, not a fashion statement.  If it's not "uni" it fails from zero.

That's the only thing you are harping on?!?!

This actually happened today, a couple of hours ago:

CAP was invited to be at the center stage for a Memorial Day service by a coalition of Vet groups.  Our squadron was the primary, but we also had members from surrounding squadrons taking part.  The local media was covering the event.

It was "requested" by the VFW leadership that those members in G/Ws stand off to the side, because "two different uniforms was confusing" and "you aren't wearing the same uniform as your cadets."  Since we were the invited guests, the CC (himself in G/Ws) agreed.

As such, those in the corporate uniform, many of themselves who were actual vets, were not able to take part except as observers off to the side.

The proper response would be to walk out.....but that's just me.

[a2capt]

Without making a scene and taking away from the real intent.. I would have been out of there so fast. Even if I was -not- in G/Ws.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea sorry, that's crap. Good on the CC for working it, but the proper response probably would be to explain what you just said, and give them an all or nothing.

[Eclipse]

Without making a scene and taking away from the real intent.. I would have been out of there so fast. Even if I was -not- in G/Ws.

+1

[PA Guy]

What about the cadets who haven't done anything? Are you going to take them with you because your feelings are hurt. I have to wear the G/W and hate and resent it to the depths of my heart so I sometimes have to remind myself of why I'm in CAP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

What about the cadets who haven't done anything? Are you going to take them with you because your feelings are hurt. I have to wear the G/W and hate and resent it to the depths of my heart so I sometimes have to remind myself of why I'm in CAP.

Yes. It's a teachable moment. You have veterans "off to the side", while cadets get to participate, but it's OK? Really?

[Eclipse]

The question, and the teachable moment, becomes "Is this about honoring veterans or getting a sweet shot for the 5pm cycle..."
Most of these types of events are generally a "gaggle", anyway, between all the civilians, the various organizations involved,
historical uniforms of both veterans and renactors, etc., etc.  It's doubtful anyone would be "confused" in any meaningful way.

In the moment, I would likely have done the same thing as Panache, and then we would likely decline future invitations to participate
with that group.

[Panache]

What about the cadets who haven't done anything? Are you going to take them with you because your feelings are hurt. I have to wear the G/W and hate and resent it to the depths of my heart so I sometimes have to remind myself of why I'm in CAP.

The Squadron CC briefly discussed it with the Seniors.  We agreed that we didn't want to "make a scene" which we would probably regret later (we get donations from several vet groups in the area) and, yes, we didn't want to leave after the cadets had come out.  What sort of lesson would that teach them?

Ironically enough, out of all the SMs who were in AF-blues, only one was a vet, and he did not look very comfortable up there when the rest of us were on the sidelines.  I actually felt sorry for him!

[PA Guy]

What about the cadets who haven't done anything? Are you going to take them with you because your feelings are hurt. I have to wear the G/W and hate and resent it to the depths of my heart so I sometimes have to remind myself of why I'm in CAP.

Yes. It's a teachable moment. You have veterans "off to the side", while cadets get to participate, but it's OK? Really?

Yes.  The CC made the right call under the circumstances.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I already said it was a good on the spot call. But having seen what vet groups wear, the G/Ws wouldn't stand out at all. Perhaps addressing it with said organizer would have helped, even "after the fact". As far as a teachable moment, we didn't have all the details, the cadets apparently were already up there. I would have at least declined any SM direct participation. We're a team, all or none. That's that.

[PA Guy]

I already said it was a good on the spot call. But having seen what vet groups wear, the G/Ws wouldn't stand out at all. Perhaps addressing it with said organizer would have helped, even "after the fact". As far as a teachable moment, we didn't have all the details, the cadets apparently were already up there. I would have at least declined any SM direct participation. We're a team, all or none. That's that.

Apologies,  I misunderstood your post.

[Майор Хаткевич]

No problem. Understandably a crappy situation for our own, so of course we get pulled into the memorial day - veterans - don't make a scene situation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No I take my position because I'm a leader in a volunteer organization and I know how we think.  Who wants to hear a bunch of whinny kids complain when their pet peeve is not adopted.  Who wants to wade through 100 pages of "I think we need to bring back the CSU".   

What all of said volunteer organisation thinks?

I do not know if you are targeting me when you say "whinny kids"...if not, please explain yourself.  If so, you are way out of line.  I will be 50 sooner rather than later and I am not a "whinny kid" just because I call you on some of your opinions.

And if you can find a quote where I said "I think we need to bring back the CSU," I welcome you to do so.

My position on what uniform we should wear....has always been.....we all need to wear the USAF uniform....if the USAF will not let us....we all need to wear the SAME uniform.  My uniform preference is the same as your.  I got not problem with the Grey and Whites....excpet we need to get Vanguard to make a set of gray slacks that are the same color and fabric.

We agree on the USAF uniforms and we agree that it is unlikely to happen.  If I had my way, we would all be in the USAF blues with metal grade, CAP lapel cutouts, blue nameplates and blue shoulder marks with embroidered "CAP" as before.

Unlike you, I do have a problem with the grey/white and find it thoroughly illogical that we retain said colour scheme when it would be just as easy to adopt the civilian Van Heusen blue aviator shirt...exact same colour, exact same price and it would look much better with the grey trousers, shoulder marks, etc.

If you go back to the beginning of my activity on CT or Cadet Stuff....that has always been my stance.

I will take your word for that as I was never on Cadet Stuff and have only been on CT since 2009.

I defend the NUC because I understand where they are comming from and why they made their decision.....and I don't take it personally.

Were you a member of the NUC?

I don't know what NSCC is...but CGAUX and SDF's are not associated with the USAF.....and this all stems from the fact that a) the USAF does not want our fat and fuzzies to ware their uniforms....and b) A lot of people in CAP want to wear USAF uniforms.  What the CG does...or what a particular state says is okay.....is up to them.  I agree we could use those arguments when you are talking to the USAF and trying to convince them to change their policy.....but CAP must suffer the pleasure of the USAF when it comes to uniforms.

NSCC is the Navy Sea Cadet Corps. http://www.seacadets.org/ My first CAP unit was co-located at an Armed Forces Reserve Centre with one of their units.  They were aghast at the changes we had to make in uniforms (berry boards era).

And you said it right when you said "suffer the pleasure" of the USAF on uniforms...an undefinable, unenforceable "low-light/at-a-distance" rubric.

The USAF could very easily control how SDF Air Units wear their uniform, as you say correctly, it is their uniform, just as the Army and handful of Naval SDF units wear their uniforms.  I have read on CT where the AF could not control such things, which I disagree with.  If nothing else, they could make it clear through State Adjutant Generals that these Air units need to be more "distinctive."

I understand your pain......I don't care....but I understand it.  You hate the Gray and Whites and you take it personally that "no one" is listining to you and your suggestions.

You do not have to "care," but you would do well to recognise that many, many others in CAP feel as I do.

First the NUC did not kill the CSU......a) it was not popular with the USAF nor was it popular with a lot of CAP people.   It was gaining popularity (at least as far as I could see) when it was killed.....but there you go.

Again, apocryphal evidence about the AF opinion of it.

Second....yes they refused to make any changes to the current uniform....because they did not see a need for it.  The "costs" outweigh the "benifits".    It is simple as that.    You may not like it...but there you go.

What "costs" and what "benefits?"  Be specific, please, with sourced information.

Welll.....I guess I got say....when you are on the CSAG or the National Commander then what you reject or don't reject may mean something.  Look I don't mean to say your opinion is not important or invalid, it is just that you keep forgetting to add the lines "From where I sit..." to that statement.   Capt CyBorg sees XYZ as the most important issue....but the NUC or the National Commander my have access to other information or other points of view that don't match with yours.

It is good that you at least acknowledge I have a valid opinion.  My opinion is no less valid because I have railway tracks instead of stars.  I am no more or less equal than any other CAP volunteer, from Nat CC down to the newest C/AB.

Well that's where you are wrong...they did not take action that negatively impacted esprit de corps......they took action, that in their opinion provided the best outcome for ALL the players involved.   

How am I wrong, especially given the new revelations in this thread about how those in the G/W's were treated on Memorial Day?

The NUC may have made changes that would make you and people who feel like you happy....but then that same action may piss off a whole other bunch of people.   Did you ever think of that....how would YOUR propose changes affect other people?

Which is why I have solicited opinions and posted a full synopsis of suggested changes.  It is there for you to see and critique as well.

How many people do you honestly believe would be honked-off by changing the G/W/blazer?

Look I know.....it sucks....it sucks bad.    IIWGFAD (If I Were God For A Day)....I would have us into a single USAF uniform with just enough distinctiveness to keep the USAF happy is a heart beat.

I believe you.

I also agree that the multi-gray pants reduces our "professional" appearance.....and again IIWGDAD I would develop a set of acceptable Gray Shade 121xx pants and skirts for us (assuming I did not get us all into USAF uniforms).

I agree to a point, except that I believe the entire G/W kit makes us look unprofessional, in the sense of being an aviation-related organisation.

The NUC had nothing to do with the CSU fiasco...so stop harping on that. 

I should have said NEC, but I refuse to believe the NUC had absolutely nothing to do with it.  The CSU was a uniform.

And my opinions are no less valid than anyone else's, so please do not characterise them as "harping."

The NUC had a big big problem on its plate.....and the tackled it as best they could...considering there were all sort of personalities on the committee...each with their pet ideal.   What they did though.....was to focus THIS round of changes to doing what really really really needed to be done with the uniform.......FIX THE FREAKING MANUAL....which by the Drafts I have see....they have done an excellent job.

If said manual ever comes out.  I will concede that they closed some loopholes, but there will always be others.  Example: What is meant by the "CAP baseball cap?"  Is it only the ones sold by Vanguard?  Or if someone takes a CAP crest and sticks it on a baseball cap, is that also a "CAP baseball cap?"

Still not happy with the uniforms......the new 39-1 has a clear method for suggesting improvements......knock yourself out.   

If I thought it had a fart's chance in a hurricane of making it past Wing, or even Group, I would, with feedback (even if somewhere along the line someone were to say "Captain, your proposal stinks and it's not going anywhere," I could live with that).

But please....please....stop implying that the NUC does not care about the rank and file membership....because IMHO that is simply not the case.
YMMV

And does vary, Master Sergeant.

I have to wear the G/W and hate and resent it to the depths of my heart so I sometimes have to remind myself of why I'm in CAP.

Well, there's at least one other CAP member who feels as I do...

[a2capt]

And if you can find a quote where I said "I think we need to bring back the CSU," I welcome you to do so.

With all the times you've said "they" (Took, stole, whatever) "it from us"..  It's become a broken record.

That essentially means the same thing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And if you can find a quote where I said "I think we need to bring back the CSU," I welcome you to do so.

With all the times you've said "they" (Took, stole, whatever) "it from us"..  It's become a broken record.

That essentially means the same thing.

Logical fallacy of false equivocation.

And I have never said "stole."

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I'd like to add 3 points.

• At both my Wing HQ by suggestion and at National Staff College last week by order ribbons were not worn on the blue or white shirts.
  It's been suggested this stems from AF officers not wearing ribbons on the shirt, only on the service coat. So if we start removing the option to wear ribbons on the white shirt then the G&W folks don't ever get to wear them. (Can you say 2nd class?)
  
• There seems to be a legal trend that obesity caused by a medical condition is covered under disability discrimination which CAP, USAF and DoD all have policies against.
  DoD Directive 1020.1 Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Handicap in Programs and Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of Defense
  AFI 36-2707 NONDISCRIMINATION IN PROGRAMS AND ACTIVITIES ASSISTED OR CONDUCTED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE
  CAPR 36-1 CIVIL AIR PATROL NONDISCRIMINATION PROGRAM (which references the 2 above)
• Forcing an 18 to 21 year old cadet into a separate uniform on the basis of weight seems to match the definition of hazing in CAPR 52-10 Cadet Protection Policy.
  

[PHall]

Forcing an 18 to 21 year old cadet into a separate uniform on the basis of weight seems to match the definition of hazing in CAPR 52-10 Cadet Protection Policy.

Good luck proving that. Using that "logic" we can not make them get haircuts or even bathe.