Bye bye NCOs???

[a2capt]

Grandfather smandfather. It would still be totally pointless, and would take so many years to "filter out" those who are suddenly "undesirable" to hold the title.  This is not the RM, and I can't think of one reason such a change would help anything. If it's because some agency, entity or what have you says "we're not going to deal with XXX because they're not a degree holder", then too bad for them. They're worried about the wrong thing.

Our grade is just that, ours, for our organization.

[Panache]

I completely support expanding the flight officer grades, but changing the insignia to warrant officer-type.

So do I, but I still think that idea will should be taken further:  use the "commissioned officer"* grades to designated actual staff and command positions, and as such are temporary.  The use of "warrant officer" grade will be used to measure your professional development and will be yours permanently, and is the insignia you will wear when not actually in a staff or command position.

For example: CAP member Joe Highspeed is Wing Commander of PAWG.  As such, he is Colonel Highspeed.  After serving his tenure as Wing King, he is burned out and wants to go back to the Squadron to chill out and get back to teaching cadets.  His title will change to whatever level of professional development he had (so, let's say Level V = Chief Warrant Officer 5) and he would become CWO5 Highspeed.  This is not a demotion, and shouldn't be thought as such.

This will also eliminate the phenomena of Lt. Colonels serving the coffee at a Squadron meeting.

(* - Yes, I know we're not commissioned officers.  I'm just using the phrase for illustrative purposes.)

[a2capt]

But. There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With the Lt. Colonel setting up the coffee at the meeting.

Everyone pitches in. It's how we work.

[Panache]

But. There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With the Lt. Colonel setting up the coffee at the meeting.

I disagree.  If we're going to do the entire "military customs and courtesies" thing, this is awkward, to say the least.

[Private Investigator]

But. There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With the Lt. Colonel setting up the coffee at the meeting.

Everyone pitches in. It's how we work.

I agree. Nothing wrong with it. 

[Eclipse]

But. There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With the Lt. Colonel setting up the coffee at the meeting.

I disagree.  If we're going to do the entire "military customs and courtesies" thing, this is awkward, to say the least.

Not in a volunteer paradigm.

Remove the FGOs from doing actual "work" and you might as well just close the doors.

[lordmonar]

Then why have rank?

[Panache]

But. There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With the Lt. Colonel setting up the coffee at the meeting.

Everyone pitches in. It's how we work.

I agree. Nothing wrong with it. 

And people wonder why the Air Force looks at us like we're a bunch of yahoos.

[Ned]

Who do you think makes the coffee at BoG meetings?

Lieutenant Colonels.  Well, one of them, anyway.

("That was cream and one sugar, General?)

[Eclipse]

Then why have rank?

I dunno. Why?

[UH60guy]

Then why have rank?

I dunno. Why?

So we can reenact Spies Like Us at meetings, just substitute "captain" or rank of choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFtyh-5LPxw

(one of these days I'll figure out how to embed)

[rugger1869]

Who do you think makes the coffee at BoG meetings?

Lieutenant Colonels.  Well, one of them, anyway.

("That was cream and one sugar, General?)

Who do you think fetches coffee at the Pentagon? Lieutenant Colonels.

[Al Sayre]

^^ And Chief Master Sergeants...

[a2capt]

Then why have rank?

I see it as a resume, an indicator of what you've done combined with the ribbon rack, in the origanization.

Point is, this is -not- the military, though we are somewhat organized in that structure.

(one of these days I'll figure out how to embed)

Put the URL in without the "s" on https, just h++p://www.youtube.com/watch?v=theVideoHash only. No embedded stuff. Just that. The forum will parse it, and show the video inline, as long as the posted video author has not disabled embedding for that video. You'll see a notice if that is the case.  Do not paste as a link. Just the plain text. It will not work if it's showing as a hyperlink.

Spies LIke Us - Legendary "Doctor" scene

[Eclipse]

Then why have rank?

I see it as a resume, an indicator of what you've done combined with the ribbon rack, in the origanization.

My first few years in CAP I felt the same way, but the longer I'm in, and the more focused on trying to get things
done, vs. what I'm wearing, I see more and more what an unnecessary distraction they are.

Special appointments, military equivalency, and the GOBN pretty much break the assumptions you can make regarding
what relevent knowledge and experience a member has, and since they don't confer any authority, you're left
a whole lot of "no idea" when you meet someone new.

The highest in the room may well not be in command, nor ever was, the PD badges don't necessarily correspond in
any way to staff posting, etc., etc.

Being a Wing or Region Director doesn't mean you're the SME for the AOR, it means you took the job.

You can't even be sure the grades are "equal", since they could have been 10-year hard chargers who clocked every
promotion to the day, or a 10-year Major who was held back for years until someone got tired of being mean.

[a2capt]

..and you will find people being mean in just about any system, along with people who don't care, people who do more, or do less, than the average.  That does not mean every system is broken.

[Eclipse]

Agreed, but that doesn't change the fact that the CAP grade is mostly a misunderstood distraction, and in many case self-defeating.

You can make the argument that being a paramilitary organization, grade is simply part of the deal, but if that's the case then
some means to conferring weight or purpose beyond mere affectation and affinity should be found.  And as we see here on a regular
basis, not to mention in real life, a fair number (far too many) members choose the less "exciting" uniforms under the misconception
that this also relieves them from recognition of grade, and in some cases members have actual disdain for the grade system, either because
they feel wronged, they have some bizarre self-loathing about CAP vs. other services, or Twelveteen other mental hoops that members
jump through.

Taking this outside CAP, one could legitimately ask why any non-military organization adopts a pseudo military structure and insignia.
Take FDs and LEAs, especially LEAs - being an Lieutenant or Captain (or even Major as some state police departments have) means
little outside that specific department, and certainly no one would argue that the average Police Chief wearing 4 stars on his collar
has anything near the authority or responsibility as a military 4-star general.   Same goes for the Sergeants, etc.  "Shift Commander",
"Chief of Detectives", "Station Commander", etc., work just as well and actually mean something the average person can understand.
(Though conversely you rarely see FDs pr LEAs being taken to task as "wannabees" because they wear military-style insignia or use
military-style titles).

And obviously there is cronyism, favoritism, and multiple ways of entry in the military to grade as well, but at a baseline, for the average
"O-x", or "E-x" there's a baseline of training, TIG, and responsibility, not to mention a clear expectation of performance, for a
respective grade even between the services.

In other words, you can't get "x job" unless you are at least "x-grade", and if you want to keep either or both, you better
do more then show up.

That is pretty much non-existent in CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The Border Patrol/Customs use military insignia.

However, they do not carry rank titles.

I was confused once when pulling in from Canada and noticing the GIB (Guy In Booth) had warrant officer insignia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection

Theirs is connected to their GS (civil service) level.

[lordmonar]

Agreed, but that doesn't change the fact that the CAP grade is mostly a misunderstood distraction, and in many case self-defeating.

I got call the BS flag on that.

"a misunderstood distraction"
"Self-defeating"

I'm gonna have to ask you to "show me".

[Fubar]

(Though conversely you rarely see FDs pr LEAs being taken to task as "wannabees" because they wear military-style insignia or use military-style titles).

Actually, in law enforcement circles you do - mostly centered around chiefs of smaller agencies who wear more stars on their uniforms than they have officers in their department.

The rank structure certainly seems accepted in society, but when one tries to make themselves out to be more important than they are through the use of military symbols (meaning rank), it gets noticed in the community.