PAWG member "corrupts" Cadet, arrested

[SamFranklin]

If the allegations are true, "more" CPPT wouldn't have made a difference because he wasn't following the basics of the current CPPT to begin with.  Allegedly.

I think I was misunderstood.  What I was referring to is the knee-jerk reaction seen plenty of times.  From my experience in the Army, when a person in your Division or Brigade does something, you spend a significant amount of time performing "additional training".  For example, have a soldier get a DUI and you spend the next month or two discussing defensive driving, designated drivers, and alcohol abuse.  Then you get the complaint of diversity.  So you spend the next few months discussing sexual harassment, minority training, etc. 

Over my time in CAP, I have seen commands perform a few knee-jerk reactions.  Something happens and then we spend the next month discussing that accident, collision, etc.

Refresher Training. The latest draft of the new CAPR 52-10 that I've seen has members doing CPPT refresher training every 3(?) years. Right now, we don't do refresher training at all, so some of us last took CPPT in 1990 or whenever that was. Personally, I like the idea of refresher training, so long as the interval is reasonable.


Two Deep Leadership. The individual is accused of meeting with a cadet in a restaurant, 1 on 1, and also giving the cadet rides, presumably to and from CAP and also presumably in a 1 on 1 setting. Again, those are the accusations according to the news story.

Right now, 1 on 1 stuff like that is not against the CPP. CAPR 52-10 encourages two deep leadership but does not require it. You can do 1 on 1 stuff in CAP and outside of CAP under the current rules. On an overnight activity, right now you need 2 seniors, but that doesn't prohibit 1 on 1 contact during that overnight activity.

From what I understand, the whole point of redoing the CPP is to mandate "two deep" leadership in 98% of settings and make 1 on 1 contact a very rare thing that's permitted only in special settings like glider flying.

A lot of us follow two deep principles already because it just makes good sense. If you use two deep leadership, the chances of you being (falsely) accused go way down, and even more importantly, the chances of a cadet being abused go down.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Two deep is the way to go. A couple of times we had parents come late to pick up the last cadet. Two SMs stay just to CYA. If I'm the only SM around, I make sure there are at least 3+ cadets and not 1 on 1. Heck, we had 20 year old cadet teaching FLM to a female cadet, and I went and got them from the secluded area to within earshot of where I was just to CYA him. Cadets dont think in those terms, so sometimes they too need that help.

[NIN]

Two deep is the way to go. A couple of times we had parents come late to pick up the last cadet. Two SMs stay just to CYA. If I'm the only SM around, I make sure there are at least 3+ cadets and not 1 on 1. Heck, we had 20 year old cadet teaching FLM to a female cadet, and I went and got them from the secluded area to within earshot of where I was just to CYA him. Cadets dont think in those terms, so sometimes they too need that help.

Two deep matters not when one of the parties claims you met them someplace (where you did not).

But then if you're ALWAYS following the rules, claims to the contrary will be seen as what they are: false.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Two deep is the way to go. A couple of times we had parents come late to pick up the last cadet. Two SMs stay just to CYA. If I'm the only SM around, I make sure there are at least 3+ cadets and not 1 on 1. Heck, we had 20 year old cadet teaching FLM to a female cadet, and I went and got them from the secluded area to within earshot of where I was just to CYA him. Cadets dont think in those terms, so sometimes they too need that help.

Two deep matters not when one of the parties claims you met them someplace (where you did not).

But then if you're ALWAYS following the rules, claims to the contrary will be seen as what they are: false.

Fair enough. As Ned posted, the burden of proof will be on the accuser.

[NCRblues]

Two deep matters not when one of the parties claims you met them someplace (where you did not).

But then if you're ALWAYS following the rules, claims to the contrary will be seen as what they are: false.

Eventually seen for what they are, but in some instances it takes a long time, thus damaging the organization and those accused lives...

A case I am familiar with just to the north of me...

A senior member, who was a retired USN officer, was accused of inappropriate actions by two female Cadet members of the local school squadron. The girls claimed he meet them at a field party (very rural area BTW, so limited "security camera footage" to refute any claims) and offered them money for "favors", touched them inappropriately and gave them alcohol plus a number of other things.

The girls reported this up the chain of command at the local squadron who immediately called the county sheriff. The sheriff department took statements from the girls (with parents present) and arrested the Senior Member on multiple charges later that same day.

Really long story short, his wife left him over it, taking his teenage children with her and filed for divorce and a restraining order after he made bond. The USN caught wind of his charges and halted his retirement checks, lost his job teaching at the school and was destitute within a couple weeks of the arrest.

It was all "she said he said" because of the lack of any physical evidence (IE Security Camera footage, text or phone messages ext). Everyone just simply believed the girls because "they were kids" and "why would they lie about something like that".

About 2 weeks before the trial, one of the girls had a mental breakdown in the middle of the night. She attempted suicide but was stopped by the local PD before she could carry it out. She recanted the whole story later that night at the mental health center. The girls made it all up.

They had become unhappy that this Senior Member had started to make the squadron follow the rules, actually earn Cadet promotions and not allow the Cadets to use CAP class as an excuse for skipping class and homework.

The girls were later charged with "filing a false police report" a misdemeanor and received slaps on the wrist due to being minors. To this day, that SM is still picking up his life from the millions of little shards it became. He no longer is a CAP member.

Every accusation should be looked into and thoroughly looked into, but I take EVERYTHING someone says with a grain of salt. Everyone (even our wonderful Cadets) have their own agenda and ideas on how things should be.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's a pretty extreme case...

[LSThiker]

Refresher Training. [/b] The latest draft of the new CAPR 52-10 that I've seen has members doing CPPT refresher training every 3(?) years. Right now, we don't do refresher training at all, so some of us last took CPPT in 1990 or whenever that was. Personally, I like the idea of refresher training, so long as the interval is reasonable.

Oh refresher training is good, just not when it becomes the sole training item on the agenda.

From what I understand, the whole point of redoing the CPP is to mandate "two deep" leadership in 98% of settings and make 1 on 1 contact a very rare thing that's permitted only in special settings like glider flying.

A lot of us follow two deep principles already because it just makes good sense. If you use two deep leadership, the chances of you being (falsely) accused go way down, and even more importantly, the chances of a cadet being abused go down.

All of this I agree with.  Having three people is better than two.  However, in certain circumstances it is not possible or otherwise practical.  I am not talking of the glider or O-flights or chaplain visits (which are already discussed by NHQ).  I am talking about what happens when you have 1 cadet still waiting for a parent at the end of an activity or meeting.  Do you make him/her stand out in the cold or rain until their parents arrive?  Do you make another cadet and his/her family wait until the other parent arrives?  What happens when you have a SM Operations Officer and a cadet operations officer at an encampment working in the same "office".  If you always need three, would it be easier to just eliminate the cadet support staff at an encampment so that way the senior staff are more flexible?  (Not saying this is a good idea.)

In an ideal world and for good common sense, you should always have 3 people in a group.  Sure there are "solutions" to all of these questions, but how far outside of practical do we want to go? 

[Eclipse]

The far-reaching thread of CPP is to always reach for the most transparent, bright-line behavior, and make any exceptions extremely rare.

I guarantee that everyone reading this can think of at least one senior member who likes to be "buds" with their cadets, and
who you would be "less than surprised about" if something were to happen.  The time to have those conversations and
to adjust the line spacing is before those things happen.

Members who tend to be lax about other important tenants of the program are also likely to be less then diligent in this regard as
well - whether that means their own behavior, or the monitoring of others.

[EMT-83]

As to refresher training, we do it annually. It's required for EO, and CPPT is a whole lot more important than EO.

[NIN]

Fair enough. As Ned posted, the burden of proof will be on the accuser.

I replied earlier, phone ate it. <burp>

If only this were a deterrent, the burden of proof. Its sadly not.  No offense to your average teenager, but they can't think far enough ahead for tomorrow's breakfast, you think they're considering the long reaching implications to themselves and those around them when they get all bent of shape that Lt Col Comm A. Nder decided to not sign off on their promotion due to lack of participation or similar?

Its not going to be until C/SSgt Heighspeed reads in the Volunteer about terminations & disciplinary proceedings leveled at members who make these kinds of accusations falsely that the incidence will drop off.

Sadly, the disruption in the lives of good, long term members will be incredible in the face of C/SrA Sally's assertion that she was inappropriately touched during an encounter someplace "off the reservation" where nobody can prove anything (thanks NCRBlues, for that... you basically echoed what I was writing and lost), least of all the accused.

Its one thing to have affirmative evidence (text messages, etc).  Its quite another to have your legs cut out from under you by a baseless allegation, even if subsequently found to be completely untrue.

If you're an upright member, it *might* work that you're known for enforcing and living up to the CPP.  It *might*.

Then again, someone goes "Wow, I never expected it to be him.." and you might as well have thrown the CPP out the window 10 minutes after you read it.

[flyboy53]

The sad thing is that right or wrong, innocent or guilty, this senior member is going to be drug head-first through the court of public opinion before the the issues of the case are aired and will forever be branded regardless of whether there was any merit to this case. It also puts another black eye on the CAP because people will believe rumors quicker than truths.

Having had my own unfortunate/interesting (sic) experiences with cadets, I personally wonder what this guy was thinking that he met with the cadet without witnesses.

[Devil Doc]

Sad, I have Family from that County, long long ago.  I havnt been in CAP but an Year, And I do not do Anything to put myself in a Situation. Ive only done one overnight with plently of SMs, I do not do any Overnights, because I dont want to be put in any situations. I stay far far away from any conversation that can lead to anything SM and Cadets Alike. I love CAP, but to hear horror stories about lies really makes me Paranoid.

[Private Investigator]

If the allegations are true, "more" CPPT wouldn't have made a difference because he wasn't following the basics of the current CPPT to begin with.  Allegedly.

I think I was misunderstood.  What I was referring to is the knee-jerk reaction seen plenty of times.  From my experience in the Army, when a person in your Division or Brigade does something, you spend a significant amount of time performing "additional training".  For example, have a soldier get a DUI and you spend the next month or two discussing defensive driving, designated drivers, and alcohol abuse.  Then you get the complaint of diversity.  So you spend the next few months discussing sexual harassment, minority training, etc. 

Over my time in CAP, I have seen commands perform a few knee-jerk reactions.  Something happens and then we spend the next month discussing that accident, collision, etc.

Refresher Training. The latest draft of the new CAPR 52-10 that I've seen has members doing CPPT refresher training every 3(?) years. Right now, we don't do refresher training at all, so some of us last took CPPT in 1990 or whenever that was. Personally, I like the idea of refresher training, so long as the interval is reasonable.


Two Deep Leadership. The individual is accused of meeting with a cadet in a restaurant, 1 on 1, and also giving the cadet rides, presumably to and from CAP and also presumably in a 1 on 1 setting. Again, those are the accusations according to the news story.

Right now, 1 on 1 stuff like that is not against the CPP. CAPR 52-10 encourages two deep leadership but does not require it. You can do 1 on 1 stuff in CAP and outside of CAP under the current rules. On an overnight activity, right now you need 2 seniors, but that doesn't prohibit 1 on 1 contact during that overnight activity.

From what I understand, the whole point of redoing the CPP is to mandate "two deep" leadership in 98% of settings and make 1 on 1 contact a very rare thing that's permitted only in special settings like glider flying.

A lot of us follow two deep principles already because it just makes good sense. If you use two deep leadership, the chances of you being (falsely) accused go way down, and even more importantly, the chances of a cadet being abused go down.

The CPPT refresher is a great ideal because I really do not remember 1990 very well.  :clap:

[Private Investigator]

A case I am familiar with just to the north of me...

So what would you have done? Follow the Catholic Church model, the Boy Scout model or you have another plan?

Having training in sex crime investigation I see things differently. Everyone just simply believed the girls because "they were kids" and "why would they lie about something like that". Not to be harsh but I spend my day fixing lackluster investigations and reports, officers, who mean well, do not know how to do.

OTOH, of 100 rapes, only 40 is reported, 8 will be prosecuted and only three of 100 rapists will spend a day in jail. The only way we have heard about the services sexual abuse problem is because it is totally out of control. 

[Panache]

Personally, I'm a tad paranoid about CPPT.  I live with the fear that, one day, some cadet will get mad at me and decide to ruin my life with a baseless allegation.

So not only do I follow CPPT without exception, I go above and beyond the requirements so that any accusation will be dismissed because it would be a physically impossibility.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Personally, I'm a tad paranoid about CPPT.  I live with the fear that, one day, some cadet will get mad at me and decide to ruin my life with a baseless allegation.

So not only do I follow CPPT without exception, I go above and beyond the requirements so that any accusation will be dismissed because it would be a physically impossibility.

So you transfered to a Senior squadron?

[PHall]

Personally, I'm a tad paranoid about CPPT.  I live with the fear that, one day, some cadet will get mad at me and decide to ruin my life with a baseless allegation.

So not only do I follow CPPT without exception, I go above and beyond the requirements so that any accusation will be dismissed because it would be a physically impossibility.

Must be sad to be so paranoid.

[a2capt]

I had a recent encounter with someone like that ..
Since I brought several cadets to an ES training day, and brought them back, one of the SMs from the unit we were visiting said something along the lines of "you couldn't pay me to do that", and started mumbling something about CPPT.

Your loss.. I'd rather help the cadets.

[Panache]

Personally, I'm a tad paranoid about CPPT.  I live with the fear that, one day, some cadet will get mad at me and decide to ruin my life with a baseless allegation.

So not only do I follow CPPT without exception, I go above and beyond the requirements so that any accusation will be dismissed because it would be a physically impossibility.

So you transfered to a Senior squadron?

I do what I can to keep the squadron running, but really just avoid contact with the cadets, really.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Personally, I'm a tad paranoid about CPPT.  I live with the fear that, one day, some cadet will get mad at me and decide to ruin my life with a baseless allegation.

So not only do I follow CPPT without exception, I go above and beyond the requirements so that any accusation will be dismissed because it would be a physically impossibility.

So you transfered to a Senior squadron?

I do what I can to keep the squadron running, but really just avoid contact with the cadets, really.

There are cadets here. Careful, they might claim to talk to you via PM.