CSAG May Meeting Agenda

[MajorM]

Good commanders I've served under already do annual evals.  They're doable but nationwide implementation would not work.  The best ones have been asset-based versus deficiency based but the level of management skills is too wide across commanders for effective implementation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Far too many members serve in the "you're lucky I showed up at all" mode, and as soon as you raise expectations, or give them any negative feedback, they
either disengage, or get disgruntled.

I am not quite in the "you're lucky I showed up at all" category.  I do not think I am that arrogant, to say that someone is "lucky" to have my presence.

However, I will, and have, said that "if you tried to understand what I deal with on a daily basis just to put one foot in front of the other, you would not be so quick to discount the contributions I do make."

[JeffDG]

By way of annual reviews:  I vote "No" on them, mainly because they are a PITA, and a substantial reason I command the salary that I do in the real world is to compensate me for putting up with them.

[Eclipse]

Seriously man, if this is causing you this much angst, just rattle the cages and get it resolved.

I highly doubt that a group of people too wishy-washy to push your promotion through would also have the gumption to 2b you just for
doing professional inquires as to why it hasn't been processed, as is your right as a member.

You have the right to ask, they have the duty to answer (it may not be required, but it's common courtesy).  If you don't like the
answer, take a break.

[Has been]

Just so you know, in the 50s to 70 there were quotas on each grade. If you squadron had this many members you were allowed this many Lt and this many Capt. They got rid of that but I am not sure why.

The problem with tieing a grade to a position is good people will rotate out so their buddy can promote. The way around that is grade comes and goes with the job but that confuses people outside the organization. The other problem is the available position may be 100 miles away. 

There seems to be some agreement on the need to raise the criteria for promotions. But beyond CAPOBC for 2Lt I don't see any specific suggestions. What exactly do you think should the criteria be?

The Grade restructuring is just another half measure.

Instead of getting rid of the advanced promotions, instead of holding commanders to a standard and stop the promotions for promotions sake, instead of putting real meat into the promtoion system in the first place.

the  just stick on the Flight Officer grades in front of the Lt's and hope that that fixes everything.

Want to fix the CAP rank thing.....tie rank into postions....i.e. Want to be Major....serve as a Squadron Commander or wing Vice Commander, want to be Lt Col serve as a Group commander.  The highest rank you can be with out being a commander is Capt.

[Storm Chaser]

I am not quite in the "you're lucky I showed up at all" category.  I do not think I am that arrogant, to say that someone is "lucky" to have my presence.

However, I will, and have, said that "if you tried to understand what I deal with on a daily basis just to put one foot in front of the other, you would not be so quick to discount the contributions I do make."

With all due respect, I think you've said this on this forum way too many times. Look, I feel bad for you; I really do. But if this is the way you communicate and behave in your squadron and other CAP activities, it's definitely not going to help you get promoted. You need to show leadership and this is not it!

If you really feel you're not being treated fairly, talk to your squadron commander. If that doesn't work, then talk to your group commander. If you think he's the problem, then go all the way to the wing commander who, after all, is the promoting authority for the rank of major. And finally, you have the IG complaint system if everything else fails.

If none of that works then you have the following options:

• Work harder to change their minds and get promoted
• Forget about the promotion
• Change units
• Or leave CAP and go do something else

But whatever you do, stop dwelling on it and move on. While disappointing, a missed promotion is NOT the end of the world. Good luck!

[J2H]

I believe if someone put time into the military, they should get some advanced rank, but that's my opinion, I like the current system (and yes, I did put in time but didn't hit E-7, so no advanced rank).

[NCRblues]

I am not quite in the "you're lucky I showed up at all" category.  I do not think I am that arrogant, to say that someone is "lucky" to have my presence.

However, I will, and have, said that "if you tried to understand what I deal with on a daily basis just to put one foot in front of the other, you would not be so quick to discount the contributions I do make."

With all due respect, I think you've said this on this forum way too many times. Look, I feel bad for you; I really do. But if this is the way you communicate and behave in your squadron and other CAP activities, it's definitely not going to help you get promoted. You need to show leadership and this is not it!

If you really feel you're not being treated fairly, talk to your squadron commander. If that doesn't work, then talk to your group commander. If you think he's the problem, then go all the way to the wing commander who, after all, is the promoting authority for the rank of major. And finally, you have the IG complaint system if everything else fails.

If none of that works then you have the following options:

• Work harder to change their minds and get promoted
• Forget about the promotion
• Change units
• Or leave CAP and go do something else

But whatever you do, stop dwelling on it and move on. While disappointing, a missed promotion is NOT the end of the world. Good luck!

And this is one of the problems in the promotions and complaints part of CAP.

If something not so good is happening to others, its never your problem. Members always say "take it up the chain, they will care cause they have to" or "file a complaint". Telling someone to forget about the promotion is crazy and is an insult to a hard working fellow officer, and you should be ashamed.

There is a stigma in CAP with bucking to much and this is because of the very recent past (the Pineda years come to mind) where if you questioned anything you were shown the door.

Everyone should care when a member is not being treated correct in any fashion. As members we have a responsibility to stand up for the organization, not your local commander or best buddy. It makes CAP look bad when someone who cares and wants to do more and is doing a good job is not promoted/awarded/thanked.

This affects each and every one of us. This is how CAP gets a very very bad name in the public and in the AF/DOD. When we promote members that do nothing and add nothing to the program, but pass over good hard working members for no reason, do you think we are taken serious? No way! When the AF denies a promotion, it goes into writing and the member has an appeal process. CAP needs, no must have, the same before our grades are taken serious by anyone. CAP needs to stop playing small town politics and realize that small town stories (due to the internet and instant news feeds) now make it world wide. Just take a look at the situation in NER with the Connecticut Wing (NOTF is bashing the selection process). Even if the selection process is all on the up and up, people outside CAP will now always believe it was not.

CAP needs to start caring about the little man, the ones that make CAP work, not the "commanders and staffers" who without the average squadron grunt would have nothing to "command or staff". On time promotions with real meaning behind them, and a way to effectively say "no" to someone who does not deserve it, is what CAP must have.

[Walkman]

^ +100

[Luis R. Ramos]

Telling him to "Take it up the chain" by others, or "File up a complaint" by people more experienced than me, him, or probably you means those members have taken his problem at heart. They could have ignored him, not posted a solution, or offer... nothing.

After all, in real life when you loose your home because of a natural disaster, for a while people will hear what you are saying, but then will recommend you go out and rebuild.

This is what these more experienced members are doing. Suggesting to him that "Yes, crap happened to you, but get rid of it and get action."

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

If something not so good is happening to others, its never your problem. Members always say "take it up the chain, they will care cause they have to" or "file a complaint". Telling someone to forget about the promotion is crazy and is an insult to a hard working fellow officer, and you should be ashamed.

If you read my post again you'll see that I provided several options to help resolve his problem. I do feel for the guy and if I was his commander, I would take care of his situation. But I'm not. You may not like what I said, and that's fine, but it doesn't make it less valid.

There is a stigma in CAP with bucking to much and this is because of the very recent past (the Pineda years come to mind) where if you questioned anything you were shown the door.

That shouldn't be the case. If that's a problem, then it must be fixed... through the appropriate channels. I doubt there's much we can do on this forum other than provide advice.

Everyone should care when a member is not being treated correct in any fashion. As members we have a responsibility to stand up for the organization, not your local commander or best buddy. It makes CAP look bad when someone who cares and wants to do more and is doing a good job is not promoted/awarded/thanked.

I care. And as a CAP and Air Force officer, I take care of my people; always have. But again, explain to me how dwelling over a problem (as legitimate as it may be) in every post on this forum and not doing anything of consequence to resolve the situation doing any good.

This affects each and every one of us. This is how CAP gets a very very bad name in the public and in the AF/DOD. When we promote members that do nothing and add nothing to the program, but pass over good hard working members for no reason, do you think we are taken serious? No way! When the AF denies a promotion, it goes into writing and the member has an appeal process. CAP needs, no must have, the same before our grades are taken serious by anyone. CAP needs to stop playing small town politics and realize that small town stories (due to the internet and instant news feeds) now make it world wide. Just take a look at the situation in NER with the Connecticut Wing (NOTF is bashing the selection process). Even if the selection process is all on the up and up, people outside CAP will now always believe it was not.

No arguments here.

CAP needs to start caring about the little man, the ones that make CAP work, not the "commanders and staffers" who without the average squadron grunt would have nothing to "command or staff". On time promotions with real meaning behind them, and a way to effectively say "no" to someone who does not deserve it, is what CAP must have.

Fair enough. So what are you going to do to help this fellow officer get the promotion he deserves or at least a reasonable explanation for not getting it?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Like I said, others in this forum, care a lot about him. And offered sound advice...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

NCRBlues - you're kinda arguing both sides to the middle.

For the most part, CAP has very clearly defined processes and procedures, especially in regards to situations when things get "unpleasant", require disciplinary
action, or members don't receive something they believe they deserve.  By far the majority of angst and hurt feelings in these cases comes from the failure of
someone, be it a commander or the member, to follow the proper procedure to its ultimate conclusion, whatever that may be.

Members with legitimate sustainable complaints never have their "day" because they can't be bothered to file a proper complaint.  Commanders unnecessarily
sit on paperwork because they don't have the confidence to support their opinion in face to the member, etc., delay the uncomfortable conversation, and ultimately make things worse.

The system generally works, but people either don't understand it, can't be bothered, or make assumptions about the outcome based on a flawed initial premise.

In this case we have a member who took a break from CAP, is now eligible for a promotion but due to life circumstances not able to perform at a "level commensurate with promotion".  The reasons "why" he can't perform aren't actually relevent, either he can or he can't. The "commensurate with grade" or "deserving of promotion" decision is the subjective authority and duty of the commanders to make.  There is always room to question the actions of individuals, but at the macro level, this is the system we all agree to
when we write the annual check, and the subjugation and subordination to someone else's decisions is part of the game.  Basically we agree to do what someone else is telling us is important, to their satisfaction, and in return we have access to opportunity and activities not open to Joe Couch rider.

In the current system, there is no obligation to act on a promotion request whatsoever, nor is anything more then a "disapproved" stamp required to close an open request.
Common sense and good leadership / management practices, not to mention common courtesy would dictate other behavior, but they are not mandated by the system.

In this case, we appear to have a commander who is not confident enough in his abilities to either stand by his own decision, or stand up for one of his people.  Neither is against the regulations, both are poor leadership.

But good leaders deserve good followers, and in this case, the member has a duty to either accept the decision and move on, or use the means at his disposal to force action and response.  A member with a clear upward curve in responsibility, participation, and accolades, should have zero issue with promotions.  Those with more horizontal curves, or who perhaps even have occasional downward spikes, will, and should be considered more heavily, especially in CAPs renewed rhetoric about the weight of promotion.  This is how it works in business, the military, and most similar organizations.

I was behind the curve once in this regard, and the respective commander paid me the courtesy to discuss the issue and indicate what he felt needed to be re-mediated.
However had he not done that, I would not have simply sat quietly out of a misguided idea of humility while still wearing my displeasure openly on my sleeve.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Seriously man, if this is causing you this much angst, just rattle the cages and get it resolved.

I am doing so.

I highly doubt that a group of people too wishy-washy to push your promotion through would also have the gumption to 2b you just for
doing professional inquires as to why it hasn't been processed, as is your right as a member.

I have seen 2B's done for much less.

You have the right to ask, they have the duty to answer (it may not be required, but it's common courtesy).  If you don't like the answer, take a break.

I have the right to ask, but they also can tell me to shut-up.

With all due respect, I think you've said this on this forum way too many times.

I am sorry if you are offended.  However, how would you handle it if it happened to you?

But if this is the way you communicate and behave in your squadron and other CAP activities, it's definitely not going to help you get promoted. You need to show leadership and this is not it!

It is not.  I am quite introverted in person (to the point of being monosyllabic) - until I get backed into a corner.

If you really feel you're not being treated fairly, talk to your squadron commander. If that doesn't work, then talk to your group commander. If you think he's the problem, then go all the way to the wing commander who, after all, is the promoting authority for the rank of major. And finally, you have the IG complaint system if everything else fails.

Squadron CC - Done it; he is the one who opted not to forward my promotion any further, and he is taking the attitude of "I don't want to know."

Group CC - Made formal enquiry on paper that has gone unanswered.

Wing CC - Quite likely doesn't know me from Adam, but will likely eventually end up knowing me.

IG - I went that route on another issue years ago which resulted in a reprimand to me and my then-Squadron CC losing his position for going to bat for me.  You will forgive me, I hope, for scepticism regarding that route, but it is likely I will need to try to make use of it again.

If none of that works then you have the following options:

• Work harder to change their minds and get promoted
• Forget about the promotion
• Change units
• Or leave CAP and go do something else

Option I: That would involve overcoming prejudices - a nearly-impossible task in many cases.

Option II: Shut-up and be a good little boy, accepting that I have dead-ended as far as CAP goes?

Option III: None within driving distance.

Option IV: It will probably come to that.  I've left before but (stupidly) came back...if I go this time, it's for keeps.

If something not so good is happening to others, its never your problem. Members always say "take it up the chain, they will care cause they have to" or "file a complaint". Telling someone to forget about the promotion is crazy and is an insult to a hard working fellow officer, and you should be ashamed.

I do not ask anyone to be ashamed for offering an opinion, as long as it is done in good faith and not as a shut-the-hell-up statement.  I think Storm Chaser spoke in good faith, given his limited knowledge of me and my situation.

There is a stigma in CAP with bucking to much and this is because of the very recent past (the Pineda years come to mind) where if you questioned anything you were shown the door.

Unfortunately, it still happens...with the implied warning that "if you talk about it too much, you could be next."  The Form 2B as it now stands is one of the greatest evils in this organisation.

It makes CAP look bad when someone who cares and wants to do more and is doing a good job is not promoted/awarded/thanked.

Not necessarily, as long as the cookie-cutter template for such things is given the appearance of being adhered to, and when those higher up the chain may share the same prejudices as those placing the stumbling blocks.

This affects each and every one of us.

I think the maxim "you'd care if it were happening to YOU" is apropos.

This is how CAP gets a very very bad name in the public and in the AF/DOD.

I thought it was trolling for salutes?   No, really, point taken; however, how many in the public/AF/DOD know or care about our promotion processes?

When the AF denies a promotion, it goes into writing and the member has an appeal process.

There is an "appeal process."  Unfortunately, making use of it can have the undesirable effect of giving the appellant a "scarlet letter" for not being a "good boy/girl" and keeping quiet.

CAP needs to stop playing small town politics and realize that small town stories (due to the internet and instant news feeds) now make it world wide.

I am quite aware that my postings here are very likely to be read by those "in the know" of my situation, though I have been as circumspect as possible regarding specifics and intricacies.  I am quite aware that such postings can be easily culled and used against me.  In CAP, Tip O'Neill's saying "all politics is local" is still true to a very large extent.

Like I said, others in this forum, care a lot about him. And offered sound advice...

Flyer

Which I have keenly noticed - and appreciated...even the seemingly critical ones.

For the most part, CAP has very clearly defined processes and procedures, especially in regards to situations when things get "unpleasant", require disciplinary
action, or members don't receive something they believe they deserve.  By far the majority of angst and hurt feelings in these cases comes from the failure of
someone, be it a commander or the member, to follow the proper procedure to its ultimate conclusion, whatever that may be.

Those processes can and are too often circumvented/distorted.

In this case we have a member who took a break from CAP, is now eligible for a promotion but due to life circumstances not able to perform at a "level commensurate with promotion".  The reasons "why" he can't perform aren't actually relevent, either he can or he can't.

And just why are the reasons "not relevant," especially in light of CAP's stated non-discrimination policy?  Would it be different if I were a double amputee?

In the current system, there is no obligation to act on a promotion request whatsoever, nor is anything more then a "disapproved" stamp required to close an open request.
Common sense and good leadership / management practices, not to mention common courtesy would dictate other behavior, but they are not mandated by the system.

And as long as they remain as such, there will continue to be injustices in a volunteer organisation with a stated policy against such things.

In this case, we appear to have a commander who is not confident enough in his abilities to either stand by his own decision, or stand up for one of his people.  Neither is against the regulations, both are poor leadership.

More like taking an "I don't wanna know" policy, in case things do get uncomfortable, said commander can feign ignorance.

But good leaders deserve good followers, and in this case, the member has a duty to either accept the decision and move on, or use the means at his disposal to force action and response.

I am doing what I can with the means available to me.  But as my caregivers and my wife have said to me, "how much energy do you want to waste on people who don't care to begin with?"

A member with a clear upward curve in responsibility, participation, and accolades, should have zero issue with promotions.

In a perfect world.

Those with more horizontal curves, or who perhaps even have occasional downward spikes, will, and should be considered more heavily, especially in CAPs renewed rhetoric about the weight of promotion.  This is how it works in business, the military, and most similar organizations.

Please enlighten me: Do you describe a documented disability as an "occasional downward spike?"

But in the interest of all who are sick to the gut of my issue...this shall be my last post on the subject.  Any further communications will be PM only.

[Storm Chaser]

I am sorry if you are offended.

I am not offended. Believe it or not, I was trying to help. If I offended you, I apologize for that, but I stand by my comments.

However, how would you handle it if it happened to you?

I would fight it to the best of my ability until all recourses were exhausted. If I couldn't get the issue resolved, I would think long and hard if this is where I need to be. The one thing I wouldn't do is go on and on about my problems in a public forum where no one can do anything for me except give me advice. Unless, of course, I was looking for the advice and, in that case, I would listen to what others have to say and act on it.

[Ned]

The Form 2B as it now stands is one of the greatest evils in this organisation.

Sir, I realize you are upset, but this just goes too far.  It is inaccurate and unfair.

Every organization I know of has a procedure to terminate membership.  As in every organization, whether it is the high school glee club, the American Legion, or Costco.  And so does CAP, as described in CAPR 35-3.

And the current CAPR 35-3 ( "Form 2B as it now stands") provides powerful safeguards to prevent improper membership terminations.  Seniors who don't resign, pay their dues on time, and maintain their intitial membership eligibility can only be terminated "for cause."  And the eleven definitions llisted "for cause" seem fairly unobjectional ("habitual drunkenness, habitual failure to perform duty, serious or willful violations of CAP regulations, etc.) and are the same sort of things that can get you tossed out of any organization.

But more importantly, the regulation contains provisions for multiple levels of appeals.  Members have extensive protections and rights, including the right to notice, the right to appear personally before an unbiased appeals board for a full and fair hearing, the right to confront and cross-examine the witnesses against them, and the the right to put on their own evidence (witnesses and documents). 

And even if the majority of the appeals board votes against the member the approving authority may elect not to terminate the membership.  Even if the approving authority elects to terminate the membership, the member has yet another appeal available under CAPR 35-8, the MARP.

The MARP may reverse the membership termination if it finds that a termination action was motivated by retaliation, reached without due process, or involved a material failure to follow applicable CAP regulations.  A MARP decision to reverse a termination action is final.  I would note that the MARP has carried out their duties, reversing membership terminations, and displaying an admirable independence while doing so.  MARP results are published on eServices for the membership to review.

One of my jobs is to advocate for the membership on the Board of Governors, and I believe that the current 35-3 strikes a fair balance between the rights of the members and the protection of CAP and our membership from members who need to be separated. 

I also believe that previous versions of the regulation were not as protective of the membership as they should have been, and the current "member-friendly" form of the regulation is in place at least partly because of perceived abuses in the past.

All of our members deserve to be treated fairly and respectfully during their CAP duties, and that includes the awards and promotion processes.  And any member who feels that they have been treated unfairly or improperly denied an award or a promotion should be able to speak directly with commanders and staffers about the situation in a respectful manner without fear of retaliation or membership termination. 

It is also worth remembering that in the not-so-distant past some of our most senior leaders have been disciplined and even terminated for attempting to abuse the termination process.  And that lesson is not lost on our current leadership.

I want to again thank you for your service to CAP.  It is honestly and truly appreciated.

Ned Lee

[lordmonar]

+1.....for every person railroaded out of CAP with out justification.....there are 10-20 who are legetimatly rail roaded out of CAP.

My personal problem with the 2b is that it is not used ENOUGH! 

Too many times we have some goober who should not be in CAP...but becasue we are too lazy, or don't know the rules, or too nice.....we just let these guys slink off, transfer away or time out....with out documenting their gooberness.

The system is not nice, it is not fast, it is not pretty.....but it does work.   Get a bogus 2b....you can fight it....and mostly win...if it really is bogus.

[cap235629]

NCO solution would be expensive -- getting "CAP distinctive" grade insignia made could prove costly.

FO insignia already exist, just a matter of manufacturing more of them.

And the CSU jacket was cheap?

[BillB]

On the subject of 2B I agree with both Ned and Patrick. With Ptrick in that the 2B is not used enough to weed out the undesirables or used where other methods of corecting behavior fail. I agree with Ned that there are safguards in the system to protect members from improper membership termination. But let me add to that "if the regulation is followed and an unbiased appeals board hearing is held". To an extent this refers back to what many in CAP have said, the "IG system is broken". When one Region goes 10 months without an IG assigned, or the IG has to fear being removed if he/she does not follow what a Wing Commander or higher wants, the system is broken. Getting a balance between the rights of a member, and protecting the organization under 35-3 seems to be where the problem lies. In that personalities or politics, often comes into play. In Florida Wing, several members were terminated due to the  perceived wishs of a former National Commander whose name we do not mention which resulted in a biased Board. Several others were terminated for vlid justifiable reasons and through due process.
Is the existing system for terminations working, the answer is probably not. Should the system be junked and a new system provided. Here again the answer is probably not. The existing system for termination is valuable to both the member and the organization, but needs to be followed exactly as provided in the regulation, which often is not the case.

[NC Hokie]

The existing system for termination is valuable to both the member and the organization, but needs to be followed exactly as provided in the regulation, which often is not the case.

IMHO, the problem with this is that the system only provides relief to those who were wronged, with no requirement to actually punish those who abuse the system. Kicking a wing commander (for example) out of CAP after an overturned attempt to railroad another member would send a powerful message that these shenanigans will no longer be tolerated.