CSAG May Meeting Agenda

[CAP4117]

I have always thought about having some sort of SM "Encampment"

I have thought about this too, and I think if executed properly it could be a good retention tool. I've been looking into joining an SDF when I move to another state next month, and they have an introductory training that takes two weekends and gets everyone up to speed on what they need to know to fully participate. If I join, I will be interested to see what that's like.

[NC Hokie]

If the CSAG ends up requiring GES for cadets, I hope they do the right thing and require it for Senior Members as well.

Really let's hope not because not every SM has the desire to do ES.  And not every cadet will want to do ES as well.

I didn't use my sarcasm font. I don't like ES as a requirement for anyone, but if they're going to go that route, fairness demands that they do the same for Senior Members.

[lordmonar]

As a former squadron ESO I feel that both cadets and seniors should be mandated to take ES classes.

I also feel that mandated to take classes does not equate mandated to participate in ES missions.

then why waste the time of your ES instructors?

Why hold training for the sake of training?

[NIN]

IIRC, cadets are supposed to get a fairly basic ES orientation (ie. "This is what ES is, what it comprises, etc") at encampment. 

If they want to learn before that, fantastic.  But it seems to me that a more "Whole CAP" thing would be to get cadets to encampment in their first year and to increase the emphasis on doing that (and thus potentially improving retention) where they can learn all about ES during those blocks of instruction.

Call me crazy.

[abdsp51]

There should be a basic intro about it but to have it as a requirement for advancing out of Phase I will compound the issue.  We have a hard enough time getting cadets to do their Intro to safety, OPSEC,  EO and sign up for the account to begin with. 

[NIN]

Also when I went to RSC ,and you can ask Eclipse about this, it was a waste of time, one of the classes was how to write and give a speech.  That should be basic stuff since most of the class had a bachelors, several masters, and two or three doctorate's and one of those was an MD.  I'm sure that at some-point that person has had to write and make a speech.

Exactly.  This is stuff your company-grade officers need, though, masters & doctorates notwithstanding.

Basic leadership. Yeah, thanks for the awesome "Team Building Exercise '99" there, guys.  Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, been teaching to to cadets for 15 years prior to going to RSC and its "Leadership 101"-level crap we're getting here.  We should be at "Leadership 401" when you're a major striking for Lt Col.

Public Speaking. A Captain should be getting this. A guy who is a squadron commander or maybe going to be a group commander. 

Orientations to the Staff Workings.  Really? You're going to wait until a guy is a Major for this?  That's what I need for Phase IV?  I'd been a staff puke since 1989 and could have used a couple things I learned there (I did learn some things) 10 years before.

If you're going to be doing "wing & region level stuff," then standing in formation so someone can look at my whites & greys every morning and giving us 30+ minutes to practice marching around is just... not helpful at that level.  You need training on joint operations, military decision making process, etc.

Not "marching 101."

[abdsp51]

Man, you guys are making me thanking I used PME credit for RSC. 

[SarDragon]

I'm not so sure pushing cadets into MSA training is such a good idea. Here are the advanced tasks:

Complete Task L-0001 (Basic Communications Procedures for ES Operations)
   Complete Task P-0101 Demonstrate the ability to keep a log
   Complete Task P-2002 - Demonstrate the ability to escort dignitaries and visitors at mission sites
   Complete Task P-2003 - Demonstrate the ability to process incoming resources for use on the mission
   Complete Task P-2005 - Demonstrate collection and updating of incident status information

I know a lot of SMs who can't handle 2002 and 2003 very well. Making this mandatory for cadets seems like a setup for failure.

YMMV.

[BillB]

Which brings up the question...What is CAP's ES role? What ES training do you give cadets? Looking for ELTs? Disaster Relief? Mission Base operations (keeping in mind age requirements for various ES activity) Exactly what ES training are yu taling about?

[arajca]

IMHO, GES - not MSA, UDF, GTM#, MP, MO, MS, etc - shuld be part of Phase 1 & Level I. It provides a basic understanding of CAP's Emergency Services procedures.

[Eclipse]

We should be emphasizing and pushing more cross-mission involvement by all.

GES for all and probably UDF.

TLC or some other cadet-orientated training for all.

And probably stop treating AE as a separate mission in its own right and just absorb it into the other two, which it
for the most part already is.

We need to stop treating the missions like a menu and start raising expectations.

All of the missions and resources are interdependent, none can exist without the other.  We need to accept and understand that and take the
necessary steps to get those who can't or won't to step up or step out.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord,

Training people that are not going to participate is not wasting training seats.

If you train only those that want to take the training, you are not going to fill out a requirement for topics that get demonstrated better with more people.

The example I stated.

My squadron CC said "Training in ES will be voluntary once a month. We need ten cadets, if there are not ten cadets, it will be cancelled." Only 4 cadets wanted to train, and three seniors. So the CC cancelled the training!

Another case.

A search line. It is not the same when training three cadets and seniors on a search line as when you have ten cadets and two seniors. You have to assign a recorder, point man, scribe. And the possible problems with controlling a search line of ten do not show up when you have three. Everyone participating thinks it is easier.

And carrying a stretcher? Good luck when you have three! One is the victim, that leaves two to load and lift the stretcher. How do you have them moving uphill or when encountering an obstacle, where the drill is that the stretcher bearers remain stationary, and you have relief bearers moving up to take the stretcher. Where are the relief bearers to come from, if you only have three people overall?

Flyer

[Eclipse]

On the ES topic, specifically, I can't tell you how many times we've gotten the "not interested" or "we never get missions" nonsense from members
when you start talking about doing ES training, especially the baseline "less exciting" stuff.

Then a mission >does< come up, one like DR where the more hands the better, and then you've got people clamoring to punch their tickets
at the last minute so they can participate.  The result is either members with no business being there because they have barely a clue what
they are doing, or members with sour grapes because they are told they need to stay home and prepare for "next time".

A fundamental reason for CAP's continued existence, including the cadet program, and the reason why we have the airplanes, is ES.

If that is too difficult to grasp, or too much work to help support, we don't need you.

[Eclipse]

Also - CAP is about more then "what the members want to do".

It's also about what is good for the members and what is also good for the organization and the mission.
These are supposed to be in balance, but will not always be in equal portions every meeting or activity.

If we drop to "just what members want to do", we will wind up with a watered-down, online-only (mostly optional)
curriculum and professional development program with little meaning and unequal experience for all.

Hmmmm....now that you mention it...

[lordmonar]

Lord,

Training people that are not going to participate is not wasting training seats.

Yes you are.   

If you train only those that want to take the training, you are not going to fill out a requirement for topics that get demonstrated better with more people.

The example I stated.

My squadron CC said "Training in ES will be voluntary once a month. We need ten cadets, if there are not ten cadets, it will be cancelled." Only 4 cadets wanted to train, and three seniors. So the CC cancelled the training!

You are using an arbitrary rule to prove your point.   I find that doing GT training the optimumn class size is 4-6 in the first place.   I find that the optimumn class size for MS is 2.    My point is that if the ONLY reason why the member is there is to fill some sort of block...we are wasteing his time and the trainer's time.

This also goes to Eclipse....I understand your point.....but I don't agree with it.   Yes "we" should be doing all three missions.......ES, AE and CP.....but "we" in this case is CAP and the individual squadrons.    Not individual members.   

Another case.

A search line. It is not the same when training three cadets and seniors on a search line as when you have ten cadets and two seniors. You have to assign a recorder, point man, scribe. And the possible problems with controlling a search line of ten do not show up when you have three. Everyone participating thinks it is easier.

You don't have to "do" any those things.....nor is the Line search all that important nor that affective.   Yes if are going to train in it.....lots of people make it work....but again....making the entire squadron show up just so you can conduct the training is assinine....it wastes my time. 

And carrying a stretcher? Good luck when you have three! One is the victim, that leaves two to load and lift the stretcher. How do you have them moving uphill or when encountering an obstacle, where the drill is that the stretcher bearers remain stationary, and you have relief bearers moving up to take the stretcher. Where are the relief bearers to come from, if you only have three people overall?

Adapt, over come, compensate.  Again....making the entire squadron show up just so the 2 guys who need or want the training is assinine.

Also......think of you normal ground team  4-5 members.......train like you fight.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

Thank you very much for bringing up something that I should have remembered as well.

It has happened to me. People not bothering taking requisite online classes because they do not want to participate in ES, then want to be included in SAREX and emergencies at the last minute.

And when the S___ hits the fan, everyone may be called for.

Case in point.

Not naming the jurisdictions, as I do not want people identified.

I was urging members of my previous squadron to take the necessary online classes. One of our members kept stating "I will not do ES." We had a hurricane affect our jurisdiction. The Group Ops officer asked for all ES trained personnel. The Group CC countermanded him, asking for all personnel, trained or not. That guy who in our organization had said was not interested in ES ended up working at a County Ops Center, escorting VIPs and riding on vehicles.

Was he ready? No. Did he say things he should have not said? I do not know. I hope he did not.

Mandated training in what CAP ES is about. Mandated training to assist the squadron in training for ES, to assist those that want to participate.

But not mandating actual participation in ES. Leave the member to decide in participating in actual missions. Or not participating.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

^ This example happens ALL THE TIME, and in many cases we then hold these people's feet to the fire in this very forum.

[Eclipse]

Adapt, over come, compensate.  Again....making the entire squadron show up just so the 2 guys who need or want the training is assinine "service before self".

No charge on the fix.

[PHall]

There are all kinds of restrictions on using cadets in ES, just depends on where you are.
For example, in California, per CalEMA, you have to be 16 to participate in ES missions. Since CalEMA is our customer, we follow their rules.
Requiring a 13 year old cadet to become GES qualified would be a waste of time and resources since they could not be used until they turn 16.

[Eclipse]

There are all kinds of restrictions on using cadets in ES, just depends on where you are.
For example, in California, per CalEMA, you have to be 16 to participate in ES missions. Since CalEMA is our customer, we follow their rules.
Requiring a 13 year old cadet to become GES qualified would be a waste of time and resources since they could not be used until they turn 16.

In this case, the term you're looking for here is "excuse". 

The BSA doesn't have any specific operational mandate whatsoever, yet they do first aid and related training all the time.
Further, CalEMA doesn't dictate CAP's actions, only what can be done in a small lane in one wing, and only for missions and activities it has a say in.
They don't dictate or control CAP's response to ELTs or other search's controlled by AFRCC, only ones they are the lead on.

Just because you can't go today, doesn't mean you won't be needed tomorrow, nor that you should start training only after you turn 16.
For the average non-NESA grad, it generally takes a year or two of active particiaption to get to GTM1 and / or GTL.  So that's 13 or 14 to start,
not 16.

Further ES ≠ GTM, and GTM ≠ cadets, even though for some reason people try to make that assumption & connection to the detriment of the mission and the organization's readiness.