The UPS and DOWNS of SCHOOL PROGRAMS in CAP

[Major Carrales]

As many may know, our squadron has a good working relationship to the Campus and School District, it has been very beneficial to both entities since we began inroads there in 2007.  Some have suggested the CAP School initiative.  I have long rejected pursuing it.

Before I present my opinion and rationale please ponder your reply, what is your opinion of this effort?

I have been a teacher for many years in Public School.  I have seen good classes (art, choir and a host of other electives) sometimes be "co-opted" by scheduling.   By this I mean that students are sometimes put into classes they 1) did not ask for and 2) hate.  I have resisted pursuing this effort because I fear that some future counselor would effectively "kill" the program by jamming such students into it diminishing the program from those that would VOLUNTEER. 

Please...let's see what others would say. 

[jimmydeanno]

I like to look at the JROTC model and its results/ my experiences with interacting with them.

Many JROTC cadets take the course because they don't want to do Physical Education, they see it as an easy "A."  Because of this, they don't take their training seriously and the corps itself suffers.  My experiences with cadets from CAP school squadrons at activities has also supported this take.  Almost all of the disciplinary issues I've ever faced in CAP were from cadets from school programs. (Not to say that each program doesn't have some fantastic cadets).  The community based squadrons, from my experience, are full of kids who want to be there and if it's not for them, they can go elsewhere - not have to stick it out because their grade depends on it.

I'd be interested in seeing some statistics from the school programs (promotion rates, etc).

[a2capt]

Though it's from the mid-1980's, as a high school student, the classes in the performing arts dept., some of which were my only real favorite parts of my high school era, were on the receiving end of that.

The teachers used to say "the councilors offices uses this as a dumping ground", and because there were kids in there that 1)Did not ask to be and 2) confirmed they hated it with their expressions, it did provide for a distraction for those of us who -wanted- to be there.

When the gang bangers and similar people just don't want to be there.. and they don't want to participate in class, they tend to be the ones that get failing grades, sent out of the room to the office, etc and that brings their seemingly instinctive need to "get even" with those in charge, those who support them, etc.. Those were the bulk of the disciplinary issue cases, and in many cases teachers and other students vehicles even got keyed, vandalized, people got threatened, etc.

I wish I had known about this program when I was in high school. The sad thing, they were right there, where we meet each week now, and looking at the unit history, it was every bit as active before hitting a lull period in the 1990's. I think things would have turned out quite different, as I can certainly say that I'd have eaten up the Air Force environment having been able to get a better vision of it, if it's anything like what senior members who were cadets in that era say it was like.

[Major Carrales]

The teachers used to say "the councilors offices uses this as a dumping ground", and because there were kids in there that 1)Did not ask to be and 2) confirmed they hated it with their expressions, it did provide for a distraction for those of us who -wanted- to be there.

Would you inflict this on any squadron?  CAP works because the cadets want to be there.  Once that is gone, all motivation to be a cadet and live up to the cadet oath is out the window.  I have seen it too many times.  You don't want SCHOOL COUNSELORS being the recruiters for CAP. 

I can see it now...

Counselor: "So, welcome to our school. I see you are coming to us from the Reformatory."

Student: "...WHATEVER..."

Counselor: "We have you enrolled in all your regular classes, Math and Reading and the like.   Do you like art?"

Student: "...eh...I don't like the dress code or wearing belts.  You can't make me DRAW..."

Counselor: "You know...Art is full, so is typing, and Choir.  Do you like to sing?"

Student: "...no, that's for @%#^$..."

Counselor: "Well, CHOIR might not be your thing.  Do you like the ARMY?"

Student: "...eh...Do we get to shoot guns?"

Counselor: "WELL...I think so..., well, there are plenty of spaces in CAP 4th period.  Let me sign you up."

Student: "...eh..."

[a2capt]

Would I inflict it? Absolutely not. In fact, I might have to figure out a way to market that class period so that those who want to be there are busting down the doors to get in, so that "there are not plenty of seats in CAP 4th period"..

Ironically, I was in Marine Corps JROTC for a bit and ultimately left it, because of crud that the higher ranking cadets were doing, that we wouldn't stand for in CAP today. Hazing, pulling rank in other classes, and bullying out of school.. When the MSgt instructor called me a "looser" one day passing in the halls a few weeks after I dropped the class, that was it. When his "stars" got caught for stealing from the armory .. and practically pissed away their chances at graduating even, I felt some kind of vindication.  Interestingly, later on I found out that a couple of them were placed in JROTC and initially didn't want to be there either. But they managed to figure out how to make it their liking, and cause problems for others, in plain sight, but somehow the instructor was blind to it.

When that class time became an opening in my schedule, that was when I got interested in the performing arts section.  I can only guess that your scenario there could have been part of it, except when they asked about shooting guns, the answer was yes. We had rifles, a rifle team, color guard and drill team, and that stuff was fun too.

Too bad.

[NCRblues]

I know this is a late response, but I have first hand knowledge of school squadrons or school programs, call them what you will.

When I first joined CAP I joined a school squadron. It had just under 100 cadets with all of them very active. I promoted on time and went to every activity, but something seemed a little off. I started to get in contact with other cadets in the local area that were not part of my unit and they had horrible things to say about the unit. No one outside our unit wanted us around. We got the schools help and some major funding and this was hated by the other units. Long story short, the political BS eventually drove the unit commander from cap and the squadron folded almost overnight. All the cadets were transferred to surrounding units by wing, and the squadrons top of the line equipment was distributed around the state. To this day that school district wants nothing to do with cap because of the BS.

School programs can be amazing, but I am always uncertain about them because if the teacher quits, or moves schools, the kids are left high and dry with little recourse other than find another teacher.

My current wing is going through the same issue with a school squadron. It's numbers are slipping steadily as the school district directors lose interest and funding dries up from the school board. The squadron is large but removed from the majority of other units ( by several hours drive) and is basically helpless to its peril of school board members who were never properly educated on what cap could and could not be.

Just my 2 cents...

[Major Carrales]

Wow, thanks everyone for your input.  I never thought there was so many different approaches to this.  I can tell you now that were would be no "large amounts of funding" coming to the Squadron from the school district.  I think you had the "keys to the kingdom" there and that it must have been glorious while it lasted, NCRblues.

The issue you mentioned about teachers moving and the squadron folding has occurred even in JROTC units that cannot attract an Officer to take over.  I will start a thread on that subject since that is a bit of drift.

[Tom Watson Jr]

Hello my name is Tom Watson. We are trying to find out how we can start a JROTC program up here in Mi. This is something that we really beleive in and have a lot of support and dedicated personal that wants to stay dedicated to this program. My question to you is. Is there anyone out there that would be willing to set down with us and help us find the regulations, and maybe help us design a Business plan that will help us get the support of NHQ? Thank you for your time.

[Eclipse]

Tom, welcome to CAPTalk.

There's most likely someone here who can at least point you in the write direction, but just as an FYI, JROTC and CAP are different and separate
programs.

Here's a link to the Holm Center, which is the coordinator for AFJROTC: http://www.au.af.mil/au/holmcenter/AFJROTC/ApplyforUnit.asp
It appears 2013 is closed, with July 2014 being the first opportunity to open a new unit. 

The general issues with military funding may also have an impact on your ability to start something new.

[Black Knight]

Im in a school district squadron, hence the 801 in NER-NY-801. Its tough. We used to have well over 150 cadets,now we have 30ish.  We are struggling to recruit more perspective cadets.
Also, it seems the principals don't think CAP is worth their time. Especially after losing most of our cadets.

We have, unfortunately, become more of an After-school program. We have some cadets come because they have to, not because they want to.

Its very hard for a cadet like me to learn something there. I love CAP, and what its done for me. I've promoted from a C/AB to a C/SMSgt in a little over a year.

[Eclipse]

Your experience is one of the reasons the school programs are not universally popular.

A cornerstone of CAP is that everyone in the room is a volunteer, and therefor wants to be there.
As soon as you make CAP "less optional", it becomes something "else", including the potential
behavioral problems and lack of "particular interest", especially in afterschool and weekend activities.

If you're in a uniform salutifyin' all day/week at school, you're going to be less inclined to be
interested in doing more of that on the weekend, especially if the whole "Army Thing" isn't
of any interest to you.

And even in those schools that have been considered a "success", they are not a "unit" in any traditional
sense of the word that the average CAP member would understand or hold affinity with.  A couple of
these schools have more cadets then some wings.  That many members in one place automatically = "other".

[Critical AOA]

CAP should be mostly an after school activity.  Many aspects of CAP have no place in the school.  I could see a CAP senior member who is a teacher teaching aerospace education and even a little military history.  It should be offered to any student interested, not just CAP members.  It should be offered as an elective course for credit but not take away from getting a solid foundation in the basic HS coursework.  The more militant portions of the program such as uniforms, rank, C&C, drill, etc. should not be part of the in school program but rather just part of a normal after hour CAP program.   CAP is not JROTC nor is it meant to be.   Even if a kid doesn't want to be part of CAP but the course sparks an interest for him to enter the military or the civilian aerospace industry, it will have succeeded. 

[jimmydeanno]

...The general issues with military funding may also have an impact on your ability to start something new...

...but have you considered starting a Civil Air Patrol School Unit?   

[Black Knight]

What I meant by afterschool program was that its becoming like a baby-sitting program. Cadets come right after they get out of school, (It is for the entire district, from upper elementary(6th grade) -high school) the meeting starts at 1515 and we basically baby-sit them until 1800.

And everyone in my town confuses us with  the AFJROTC over at the high school. One time at a summer camp I went to, I was explaining what CAP is and what we do. A kid asked "Doesn't she mean JROTC?" The counselor said yes, and when I told her they're not, she got in an argument with me, and I was the one who got in trouble.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I am the Aerospace Education Specialist / Instructor at Cloverdale Aerospace Technology Conversion Charter Middle School. We are part of the Little Rock School District and are publically funded with about 800 students. I'm in the process of trying to get a CAP squadron started up at the school (I am also the Wing Internal Aerospace Education Officer).

Here is a YouTube link for a video I made from last year's activities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0R17UKC4QQ#

For the past two years, every 6^th grade student that attends has to take a semester-long introductory "Aerospace Investigations" class. I use Aerospace Dimensions Modules as the textbook for the class, supplemented with NASA and self-written material. We do an average of one hands-on aerospace activity a week, take a field trip every semester to the local Tech college A & P program and the 77^th Army Aviation Brigade. LRAFB provides an instructor for two days of turbine engine class, Little Rock Airport sends Operations managers out to talk about the airport, Hawker Beechcraft and Falcon Dassault both send aeronautical engineers to help with certain hands-on projects, etc, etc. We also have a 4-week long summer Aerospace Education Camp and an Aerospace Club (about 150 students) that meets formally twice a month and informally every week.

There has been such a positive response to the Aerospace Theme by the students, we are starting for next year mandatory aerospace classes for the 7^th and 8^th graders as well. The 7^th grade class is an engineering-based, problem-solving class called "Mission to Mars." The 8^th grade class is called "Aviation Academy" and is roughly a pilot ground school / aerospace career class. The principal and superintendent are firmly onboard with getting a CAP squadron; so much so that the superintendent regularly asks me for status updates. The school offered to set aside $40,000 for initial start up costs out of a grant they had, but CAP has taken so long about doing anything with it, we have lost the grant. There is a potential for a slightly smaller grant, but that is contingent upon CAP moving forward.

The squadron is envisioned as an after-school program. The students (I pulled 10 students from all my classes as a focus group + the Aerospace Club kids) are excited about the program. I have several constantly asking how soon CAP is going to start up. I have several teachers, as well as other community volunteers and LRAFB personnel, willing to join and be CAP members for the students. Now, you may ask "Why don't these kids join the local squadron instead of doing a school squadron?" The answer is that 96% of our students are considered Economically Disadvantaged and do not have the family resources to attend a normal squadron meeting. (Family doesn't have a car, parents work nights, absentee parents, etc) They can participate at events at the school (and because the squadron is at the school - there is not as much fund raising needed for the squadron, but can be insurmountable odds for the studnet to go to the local squadron).

I think this school program would have a high chance for success:
1) Aerospace Education is mandatory for all students (which means they are exposed to it and those that like it can go on into CAP.)
2) It is not an elective class - so it won't be a dumping ground for kids with time to fill.
3) As students go through Aerospace class, they get jazzed up about Aerospace - its' not another do this just to do something program. (I needed some volunteers to come in for an Aerospace Event on a Friday Night and Saturday morning - I ended up having 30 more volunteers than I needed) A lot (not all) ask what Saturdays I'm going to be at school so they can come help (fix the school's R/C airplanes, clean model displays, etc).
4) I want to keep the squadron numbers to around 150. This is only about 18% of the school. I actually foresee a problem of too many applicants wanting to participate.
5) All non-aerospace classes are REQUIRED to teach certain lessons using aerospace, so all students at all times get aerospace everywhere. This type of continued exposure only strengthens students interest in the subject and would CAP.

Thoughts, questions, ideas?

[BillB]

One problem Florida faced for School programs was finding techers that held Certification in Aerospace Education. May of the college courses required for teachers to take for the certifiction are hard to find. According to the State Department of Education, a teacher certified in scfience doesn't qualify to teach Aerospace Science. I held a Teaching Certificate, but found I couldn't take the added courses to get Aerospace Science/Education Certification.

[Walkman]

I am the Aerospace Education Specialist / Instructor at Cloverdale Aerospace Technology Conversion Charter Middle School. We are part of the Little Rock School District and are publically funded with about 800 students. I'm in the process of trying to get a CAP squadron started up at the school (I am also the Wing Internal Aerospace Education Officer).

IMO-this is one of a few places that maybe a CAP school program would work. Most of the students that attend schools like this are interested in advancing in school, have some self-discipline and overall try to achieve. I could see fewer instances of "here, you need a class take CAP" than in a traditional public school.

and BTW High Speed-your program sounds awesome. Bravo Zulu to you!