Should CAP Even Consider Encouraging Healthy Habits for Seniors?

[Ned]

I don't have to tell any of the regulars here that one of the most  frequent (and passionate) discussion topics here involves the height / weight restrictions for the AF-stye uniforms and the resultant "parallel track" of corporate uniforms that has resulted.  (To be fair, grooming issues are also part of that discussion.)

We have spoken at length about fairness and appearance issues.  Clearly, some of us have some very strong opinions in this area. 


So here's a question:

Assuming for a moment that our senior member population mirrors Amercians in general when it comes to nutrition and weight issues (IOW, a significant percentage are larger than they should be for health purposes):


1.  Can or should CAP have a role in helping larger seniors improve their health by losing weight and engaging in appropriate exercise?

Is that none of CAP's business?  Is even comtemplating such a thing a slippery slope on the road to a "Nanny Leadership Model"?

Do we have a legitimate interest in ensuring that our ES-rated members are able to respond in emergencies?

Do we have a legitimate interest in helping our seniors in improving their health in general?

2.  If you think we have an interest in improving the health of some of our members, what form should that take?

Some sort of optional program, perhaps nutrition advice and weight management counseling?

Mandatory screening, followed by confidential referal to weight managment resources in the community?

Health club discounts? 

Some sort of screening followed by a kind of AF-like Weight Control Program that has a goal of progressive and continuous improvement?

Something else?

Discuss.

[Eclipse]

The ES argument flies until you look at reality - a lot of PD & FD people are just as out of shape or worse then
CAP members.  I'd have no issue with a performance-based gateway, as many departments have today,
but good luck getting that through - not to mention surviving the attrition.

The only way you'll make significant inroads with this is financial incentives.

Uniform allowance, membership fees waiver, or similar - that gets people's attention.  Being one more voice in a crowded
room telling members they are unhealthy won't make any difference, other than possibly encouraging them to look elsewhere
with their free time.

Adults already know when they are unhealthy, they wold need to know why it's important in a CAP context, and that context
would have to also include much better enforcement of the regs today for those who choose to ignore them.

We'd need a seismic paradigm shift, not to mention a sudden influx of members to handle the attrition.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Adults already know when they are unhealthy, they wold need to know why it's important in a CAP context, and that context
would have to also include much better enforcement of the regs today for those who choose to ignore them.

Wait, are you saying pushing 250 lbs is bad for me!? Since when! ?!!?!!?!111?!

[SARMan]

* Modified because I had a change of mind.

     I disagree with the fact that CAP as an organization, should have the right to try and get involved with people's personal lives. This is almost like Michelle Obama with her school lunches. If people wanna eat and become over weight, by all means let them. Who in the heck are we to try and tell people what they can and cant do. I keep myself fit, I work out, and I mantain a proper diet. I dont worry about other people, cause I have no right to tell them they need to work out or look a certain way.  However, if such a program did exist, it should only be limited to ENCOURAGING, in the sense of the word, and not anything else.
     The CAP SAR Ranger program has physical requirements for those wishing to earn rank in SAR and participate in ES, and I think that something like that should be implemented into the GTM Standards. This should take care of the SAR/ES argument, which i agree with. If someone plans on doing SAR/ES, they should be reasonably fit, and be able to respond in an emergency, and not become a liability in the field.

[Devil Doc]

I agree with weight. Can you tell an SM that "Volunteers" their time to be in weight standards? I am losing weight so I can wear the BDUs and AF Uniforms. All good points you guys are making though keep it going this should be an interesting topic.

[Stonewall]

I think CAP, like BSA, VFD, and VSAR organizations attract a lot of adults with addictive personalities.  I am included in this!!!  I have known TONS (no pun intended) of senior members who were so involved in CAP you'd think it was their full-time PAID job.  Houses look like CAP NHQ and their personal cars are loaded with self-purchased equipment and have the markings of a CAP Corporate SAR vehicle.  Yet, they are in the worst shape of their lives.  Why?  Because they are addicted to CAP and likely addicted to convenient/unhealthy foods that go along with always being on the go...for CAP.  When CAP becomes more of a priority than your career, education, family, or health, then YOU have a problem.  A problem that is no different than gambling, smoking, alcohol, or eating.

I have been involved with BSA for a whopping 3 weeks now and their adult "leaders" look identical to CAP leaders.  Out of the 20 or so adults I've seen, at least 80% are grossly overweight.  They look and act exactly like the majority of our seniors, as if they MUST do Scouts.  It's almost scary!

I don't think CAP SM's need to be involved in cadet PT or participate.  I don't think they should have to take a PT test.  But I think, at a minimum, some serious peer pressure from some level needs to HIGHLY encourage fitness and healthy lifestyle habits.  As a cadet I pointed and laughed at fat senior members.  As a healthy senior member, I question motives and the priorities of obese members who JUST GOTTA DO CAP.

Some argue to an extent that CAP is an organization for those who wish to serve our nation, but are, for some reason, incapable of doing so as part of the armed forces.  I'm not sure if that is true, but I like it as an option for those patriots who don't qualify for the military due to age or medical disqualification.  I support that 100%. 

Leading by example is more than just as part of a ground team, building rockets, or walking around with some flashy rank on your collar.  You lead in ALL aspects of mentorship to include financial responsibility, legally, ethically, and through physical fitness and nutrition. 

I don't want my son or daughter thinking it's okay to be obese, as long as you're nice and show up on time.  No, it is NOT okay.

[RiverAux]

From a strictly self-preservation point of view (avoiding medical costs to the organization), CAP should have physical fitness requirements for ground team members.  Beyond that I don't think CAP has any sort of responsibility in this area. 

[Garibaldi]

From a strictly self-preservation point of view (avoiding medical costs to the organization), CAP should have physical fitness requirements for ground team members.  Beyond that I don't think CAP has any sort of responsibility in this area.

Pour encourager les autres? I agree that I need to get my fat a..bu...tail in shape because as a GTL I can't keep up with the cadets anymore. The youngest GTL we have is 30, and the oldest is 54 and ALL of us are out of shape. I couldn't even pass the land navigation part of SARTECH a few years ago without feeling like my heart was gonna explode. I had taken to walking about 2 miles in the park but when I started working here and there it interfered with my walking schedule. I think I'll start again now that I'm working nights and maybe throw on my field gear after a few weeks.

[SARMan]

From a strictly self-preservation point of view (avoiding medical costs to the organization), CAP should have physical fitness requirements for ground team members.  Beyond that I don't think CAP has any sort of responsibility in this area.

CAP does have them in the Ranger curriculum. What they should be doing is adding them to the GTM program. I dont know why they have not made it a GTM standard yet, because the GTM standards were adapted off of the Ranger standards in the first place.... 

[Майор Хаткевич]

From a strictly self-preservation point of view (avoiding medical costs to the organization), CAP should have physical fitness requirements for ground team members.  Beyond that I don't think CAP has any sort of responsibility in this area.

CAP does have them in the Ranger curriculum. What they should be doing is adding them to the GTM program. I dont know why they have not made it a GTM standard yet, because the GTM standards were adapted off of the Ranger standards in the first place.... 

What are these standards? Be able to walk with a pack for X miles?

GT is self-selecting. If someone can't do it, then they probably wont. I could stand to loose around 70 lbs to be in a good "FIT" spot. But at my current weight I can get a lot done, and I can certainly traverse the woods with a pack for a good amount of time. We're not double-timing to a rescue...

[SARMan]

From a strictly self-preservation point of view (avoiding medical costs to the organization), CAP should have physical fitness requirements for ground team members.  Beyond that I don't think CAP has any sort of responsibility in this area.

CAP does have them in the Ranger curriculum. What they should be doing is adding them to the GTM program. I dont know why they have not made it a GTM standard yet, because the GTM standards were adapted off of the Ranger standards in the first place.... 

What are these standards? Be able to walk with a pack for X miles?

GT is self-selecting. If someone can't do it, then they probably wont. I could stand to loose around 70 lbs to be in a good "FIT" spot. But at my current weight I can get a lot done, and I can certainly traverse the woods with a pack for a good amount of time. We're not double-timing to a rescue...

They are actually pretty good fitness requirements. You can find the testing sheets down at the bottom of the page. http://pawg.cap.gov/hawk_mountain

[NC Hokie]

1.  Can or should CAP have a role in helping larger seniors improve their health by losing weight and engaging in appropriate exercise?

Yes, CAP can and should have a role in this, but it should be strictly advisory except in cases where operations could be impacted. In other words, weight restrictions for aircrew or adding a day hike with 24 hour gear to the GTM requirements is okay, but dismissing members for being overweight is not.

Do we have a legitimate interest in ensuring that our ES-rated members are able to respond in emergencies?

Absolutely! This helps ensure that our members don't become casualties by exceeding their physical limitations, and shows our partners that CAP is serious about the ES mission.

2.  If you think we have an interest in improving the health of some of our members, what form should that take?

An optional program modeled on CAPP 52-18 is the direction I would go. Put the information out there, incentivize participation in some manner (ribbons, squadron awards, t-shirts, etc.), and provide some sort of tracking mechanism so that those interested can participate outside of their regular meetings.

Some sort of optional program, perhaps nutrition advice and weight management counseling?

Advice? Yes, in the form of a properly-vetted publications, but I would be firmly against providing any kind of counseling since there could be issues of legal liability if the counseling leads to a bad result.

Health club discounts? 

Why not, but an even better option would be access to AF facilities for those members close enough to take advantage of it.

[SARMan]

1.  Can or should CAP have a role in helping larger seniors improve their health by losing weight and engaging in appropriate exercise?

Yes, CAP can and should have a role in this, but it should be strictly advisory except in cases where operations could be impacted. In other words, weight restrictions for aircrew or adding a day hike with 24 hour gear to the GTM requirements is okay, but dismissing members for being overweight is not.

Do we have a legitimate interest in ensuring that our ES-rated members are able to respond in emergencies?

Absolutely! This helps ensure that our members don't become casualties by exceeding their physical limitations, and shows our partners that CAP is serious about the ES mission.

2.  If you think we have an interest in improving the health of some of our members, what form should that take?

An optional program modeled on CAPP 52-18 is the direction I would go. Put the information out there, incentivize participation in some manner (ribbons, squadron awards, t-shirts, etc.), and provide some sort of tracking mechanism so that those interested can participate outside of their regular meetings.

Some sort of optional program, perhaps nutrition advice and weight management counseling?

Advice? Yes, in the form of a properly-vetted publications, but I would be firmly against providing any kind of counseling since there could be issues of legal liability if the counseling leads to a bad result.

Health club discounts? 

Why not, but an even better option would be access to AF facilities for those members close enough to take advantage of it.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[wuzafuzz]

My knee-jerk reaction is a big ol' heck-no, I don't want CAP to become yet another extension of Big Brother.

As I ponder the topic a bit longer I think of flight physicals.  All pilots have to pass occasional physicals to keep their medical current.  Flying is the carrot to try staying fit enough to fly.  Outside of those physicals all pilots are expected to intelligently self-certify every time they fly.  Their lives depend on it, along with those of their passengers and anyone else in their path.

Similarly, perhaps a meaningful re-certification process would be wise for the few ES jobs that require physical exertion.  For instance: we have an interest in reasonably assuring that a GTL won't become incapacitated or go DRT (Dead-Right-There) out in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of minor cadets.  I don't believe we should go beyond performance based standards.  If you can do the job with minimal drama we shouldn't spend much, if any, time worrying about your diet or other legal habits outside of CAP.  If you can't do the job, you don't get to "play."

At mission base I've seen members of all shapes and sizes.  Their fitness has little impact on mission base performance.  In fact some of the highest performers I know fall outside of the weight standards for wear of Air Force style uniforms.  Doing anything to drive them away would be an unnecessary loss for CAP.

I'm fortunate enough to stay fairly fit and trim, although I could stand to improve my exercise program.  I don't need, or want, CAP to point me in the right direction.

[Woodsy]

Yes, CAP should encourage healthy lifestyles, including maintaining a physically fit and healthy body! What is the harm in this?  Now of we get into requiring PT tests, minimum standards, etc., then we'll have a problem.  There is no harm (and a lot of good) in encouraging this.

As for how?  Let's look at some ways CAP could help members stay/get healthy.

-Many companies have a work/life benefit plan for employees that extends free phone guidance, smoking cessation products, medical referrals, discounts on gym memberships, diet plans, etc.  What would be the cost to the corporation to provide a benefit such as this to CAP members? 

-How about an optional physical fitness program for seniors?  I'm thinking something along the lines of how the Yaeger award works.  Do this, this and that and get this award and a ribbon for your rack.  There could be breakdowns by age and gender for the requirements, as there are in school and military programs. 

-A great way to start (and this is a big pet peeve for me) is to STOP BRINGING DOUGHNUTS to meetings, SAREX's, etc.  We tell our cadets to be healthy and eat right, then bring a couple dozen doughnuts to the SAREX at 7 in the morning!!!  How about some fresh fruit instead?

-

[Eclipse]

One of the issues that needs to be considered is what, in CAP, besides the uniform, is affected by members' health?

Beyond being alive to actually participate, I don't see anything we do as any more strenuous then the average american's
day-to-day life.  Most of what we do, including flying, is akin to the average office job, and the bivouac's and ground ES are
akin to a hike in the woods.  We're not doing death marches or survival readiness.

I do agree on the food - we try and set the example for cadets and then can't even be bothered to be discreet about
the crap we eat.  I know plenty of seniors who think it's funny to eat junk food in front of deprived cadets at encampment,
etc.  That's not cricket, and we should at least try and present a healthy image within caet eyeshot.

But then again we have members who can't go a week without "a beer after a long day", and leave base to catch up.

[coudano]

Encourage all you want.
The trouble comes in when you start requiring.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sarman, took a look at the requirements for advanced ranger and its crap. I'm on a phone atm, but can just say that a 'one size fits all' test that has little to do with CAP missions is useless beyond stroking ranger egos.

[PA Guy]

CAP does have them in the Ranger curriculum. What they should be doing is adding them to the GTM program. I dont know why they have not made it a GTM standard yet, because the GTM standards were adapted off of the Ranger standards in the first place.... 

CAP does not have a "Ranger curriculum".  Some Wings have a Ranger Program and curriculum.

[husker]

From a strictly self-preservation point of view (avoiding medical costs to the organization), CAP should have physical fitness requirements for ground team members.  Beyond that I don't think CAP has any sort of responsibility in this area.

CAP does have them in the Ranger curriculum. What they should be doing is adding them to the GTM program. I dont know why they have not made it a GTM standard yet, because the GTM standards were adapted off of the Ranger standards in the first place.... 

No.  Not true.