Uniform visability

[desert rat]

On ground team missions in hot areas people tend to remove their blouses (shirts).  They are wearing the black t-shirts and BDU pants or blue BDU pants.  They look just like the National gaurd or police then.  Many don't wear the orange vest or wear camo backpacks over the vest.

Wouldn't orange t-shirts like Hawk Mountin make sense?  Keeps the grouns team visible and thus safer.  It also distinguishes us from other groups like national gaurd.

What do you think?

[DrJbdm]

The problem i see is that a orange t-shirt worn with BDUs would look very unprofessional. I don't see anything wrong with looking like national Guard.

  The Air Force doesn't wear orange t-shirts so neither should we. We do kinda follow what Air Force is doing and we should continue.

[Eclipse]

I think they should follow the regs and wear their vests...

[MIKE]

On ground team missions in hot areas people tend to remove their blouses (shirts).  They are wearing the black t-shirts and BDU pants or blue BDU pants.  They look just like the National gaurd ...

Thats kind of the point.  After Katrina the USAF was testing tan t-shirts for the ABU that said Air Force across the back... Their reasoning was that airmen were getting confused with soldiers by the media.  IIRC it wasn't well received in testing and is being redesigned.

Wouldn't orange t-shirts like Hawk Mountin make sense?  Keeps the grouns team visible and thus safer.  It also distinguishes us from other groups like national gaurd.

I do not care for the orange shirts... And currently they are not an authorized uniform item.  If you need visibility wear the orange reflective vest.

What I might support would be standardized black t-shirts and a heavier weight black long-sleeve mock-neck shirt with a full color CAP MAJCOM patch logo on the left chest... Maybe add www.cap.gov (free advertising) across the back and make the logo/text reflective in low light like the Army and USAF PT shirts.

At least until we have to wear tan with the ABU.

[shorning]

On ground team missions in hot areas people tend to remove their blouses (shirts).  They are wearing the black t-shirts and BDU pants or blue BDU pants.  They look just like the National gaurd or police then.  Many don't wear the orange vest or wear camo backpacks over the vest.

Wouldn't orange t-shirts like Hawk Mountin make sense?  Keeps the grouns team visible and thus safer.  It also distinguishes us from other groups like national gaurd.

What do you think?

I don't think we need to make up uniform combinations.  If you have concerns of looking like LE or the Guard, then stay in uniform.  You should be in uniform and wearing a vest in the first place.  If you're truly concerned with being seen, there are other things your unit can do and still be within the regualations.  For example, an orange hat.  Heck, if you're concerned with covering up your vest with camoflauge backpack, then don't allow them.  Make everyone use an orange backpack.  But that wouldn't look as "kewl" as an orange t-shirt.

It makes more sense to keep the uniform shirt on.  I've done SAR in the Southwest and been deployed to some hot, desert locations.  Keeping the shirt on provides some protection from the sun.  You'd be better off worrying about hydration.

[Matt]

I would have to concur with Eclipse and shorning on this one.

One, it's the uniform -- it's better than having to go in blues like years ago...  Secondly, aside from just needing to stay in uniform, there's a number of other reasons, such as:
1.) Helps prevent dehydration, helps contain sweat and acts as a cooling barrier
2.) Helps protect against UV which will make you tired
3.) Protection from the elements... helps especially with trees and more so up here in WI -- MOSQUITOES!
4.) In the event of coming on a crash it adds an extra layer of protection for shrapnel, BBP, and the like; it can also, in the event of survivors, help as though it were a trauma blanket (improvised, of course).

Also, as shorning said, use an orange hat, or as we do -- ORANGE HELMETS!  They help to see you in the thicket much better than a vest.  It also is easier for air crews to see bobbing orange jelly beans than just vests.

The remorse factor for heat is minimal here -- when it's 90 with a 80% humidity... it's better to keep it on...  Besides -- it's your uniform, you've chosen to go on the mission, keep it on...

[swya]

i must agree with shorning that it is important to stay in uniform, but a standardized cap shirt would make sense in case someone had to take their blouse off for an improvised litter or something off

[Eclipse]

An improvised litter doesn't stop you from putting your vest back on.

If its the bulk, etc., do what a lot of us have done and go with the orange SAR-med type vests.  They are more comfortable (and senior-body forgiving) then the tac gear, and your vest can't be covered by the gear, because it IS the gear.

And as stated, in high sun, your blouse shoudl be on, sleeves down, anyway.

Lots of options, here, but the regs are clear.

[shorning]

...but a standardized cap shirt would make sense...

You mean like the black or brown one that is already required to be worn?  Like Eclipse said, you can put the vest back on.  In fact according to our regs, you should put the vest back on.

[swya]

your right but a cap shirt with the words cap on it is still very cool

[shorning]

your right but a cap shirt with the words cap on it is still very cool

Ah...now we come to the crux of the issue:  "it looks cool".

Absolutely the wrong reason for us to wear anything!  Skip the "cool" until we can master the basics.

[JohnKachenmeister]

1.  You should stay in uniform.

2.  Which would you rather be mistaken for:  National Guardsmen or Road Gang Convicts, the latter usually are wearing orange T-shirts.

[DNall]

That's right. If people really knew how unqualified CAP is & that it's a volunter civilian org, etc then they wouldn't give you the time of day. Being mistaken as having a closer relationship with the military causes people to think we meet military level qualifications & experience levels based on age & grade. We need to match up as close as we reasonablly can with their expectations of military profressionalism so they don't think twice about it. Otherwise you're just shooting yourself in the foot for no reason at all.

You want to make a black Sq T-shirt w/ a Sq emblem in the left front & "search & rescue" on the back, well I guess you can get away with that, but it's not in regs.

You want visability, make sure you got a good vest & wear it, carry signal panels & mirror like the book says, a small strobe & chem lights. Personally, I've never had a problem using the vest & GPS coordinates relayed over the radio.

[Major_Chuck]

Wear the vest, it is the safe thing to do. 

[RiverAux]

If you're actually out doing GT stuff, you should wear the BDU shirt.

However, where the issue seems to come up is flightline crews and when GTs are sitting under a tree at base waiting to be deployed.  In those situations t-shirts are often more appropriate.  So, if we had a t-shirt with lettering, they could come in handy then. 

However, this would probably lead to a CAP standard t-shirt that would have to be bought through Vanguard for $15-20...

[brasda91]

On ground team missions in hot areas people tend to remove their blouses (shirts).  They are wearing the black t-shirts and BDU pants or blue BDU pants.  They look just like the National gaurd or police then.  Many don't wear the orange vest or wear camo backpacks over the vest.

Wouldn't orange t-shirts like Hawk Mountin make sense?  Keeps the grouns team visible and thus safer.  It also distinguishes us from other groups like national gaurd.

What do you think?

I don't think we need to make up uniform combinations.  If you have concerns of looking like LE or the Guard, then stay in uniform.  You should be in uniform and wearing a vest in the first place.

It makes more sense to keep the uniform shirt on.  Keeping the shirt on provides some protection from the sun.  You'd be better off worrying about hydration.

Dang, that's what I was going to say!

[DNall]

Waiting around outside & on the flight line are exactly times when you need to be wearing the shirt. I understand where you're coming from, but you really should be protecting from the sun & massively hydrating. That's why it's important to keep people cycled thru the AC to keep your people fresh.

[Hawk200]

I do not care for the orange shirts... And currently they are not an authorized uniform item.  If you need visibility wear the orange reflective vest.

I would agree. And I don't think it would really be a bad idea to have some kind of "Civil Air Patrol" markings on the vest either. Either made that way, or some kind of generic panel that would be sewn on a vest.

What I might support would be standardized black t-shirts and a heavier weight black long-sleeve mock-neck shirt with a full color CAP MAJCOM patch logo on the left chest... Maybe add www.cap.gov (free advertising) across the back and make the logo/text reflective in low light like the Army and USAF PT shirts.

I like the idea of a color MAJCOM style patch, and the www.cap.gov line. I don't like the idea of reflective panels on the shirt, it seems like I get some serious warm spots that can get kinda uncomfortable. Maybe add the web address to an orange vest as well.

It may sound stupid, but if someone looks out their window in their neighborhood, and sees the web address, they can just pull it up on their computer to determine who "those guys in camo out in the street" are. Could provide information that might prevent someone from walking outside with a shotgun in hand.

It probably seems farfetched, but that's what comes to mind.

[MIKE]

I do not care for the orange shirts... And currently they are not an authorized uniform item.  If you need visibility wear the orange reflective vest.

I would agree. And I don't think it would really be a bad idea to have some kind of "Civil Air Patrol" markings on the vest either. Either made that way, or some kind of generic panel that would be sewn on a vest.

There is this one, but it's fugly IMO.

What I might support would be standardized black t-shirts and a heavier weight black long-sleeve mock-neck shirt with a full color CAP MAJCOM patch logo on the left chest... Maybe add www.cap.gov (free advertising) across the back and make the logo/text reflective in low light like the Army and USAF PT shirts.

I like the idea of a color MAJCOM style patch, and the www.cap.gov line. I don't like the idea of reflective panels on the shirt, it seems like I get some serious warm spots that can get kinda uncomfortable. Maybe add the web address to an orange vest as well.

Not reflective panels... The MAJCOM patch and the www.cap.gov text would be reflective.  Example:


Note the "ARMY" on the shorts.  The shirts are supposed to do it too, and I have one that does... but it is not evident in this pic.

[Hawk200]

There is this one, but it's fugly IMO.

That thing is actually $30 ?! I wouldn't buy it....

Not reflective panels... The MAJCOM patch and the www.cap.gov text would be reflective.  Example:


Note the "ARMY" on the shorts.  The shirts are supposed to do it too, and I have one that does... but it is not evident in this pic.

I have those same PT clothes. The warm spot I'm referencing is that stylized reflective "A" on the back of the shirts. For me, that spot tends to warm up uncomfortably. Don't know why it does it, but it is irritating.

[DNall]

That vest is expensive & horrible looking. A simple sew on reflective pannel would be a nice addition to Vanguard. I understand the logic behind the website on there, but I think it might be a bit much & too busy. I'd stick with something more like you see on LE raid vests/jackets.

Couple other directions you can go. AF universally uses those stupid reflective belts. I'm sure we could get a pile of them surplus from them. (like this funny interpretation)


Reflective T-shirts are expensive, and can look kind stupid:
http://www.chairforce.com/fun/funny-photos/hires/usaf-fitness-model/fitness-model.htm

[DNall]

or vest in the search box at a site like galls.com & see what you come up with.

[MIKE]

I kinda like the reflective belts.     I would rather use them than the vests in some instances.  I think they could be particularly useful for formations and drill in the evening... Can even use them as a position identifier, depending on color and how worn.



http://reflect-a-life.com/default.asp

[DNall]

I tell ya I'd rather sew a reflective panel & strips onto my gear than wear a vest, and I would like to have reflective belts in the toolkit for both ES & non-ES instances. Particularly my guys marching around after dark in an area where there are both cars coming off a blind corner & sometimes turning props (just love how our airport set that up). Anyway, I'd like it if the reg for ES gear provided more latitude to create a professional appearance w/ hi-vis.

[Hawk200]

Anyway, I'd like it if the reg for ES gear provided more latitude to create a professional appearance w/ hi-vis.

One major problem with that line of thinking DNall....

[Hawk200]

I kinda like the reflective belts.     I would rather use them than the vests in some instances.  I think they could be particularly useful for formations and drill in the evening... Can even use them as a position identifier, depending on color and how worn.



http://reflect-a-life.com/default.asp

Thanks, MIKE. Been meaning to order from them, seems like forever, just kept forgetting about it.

[MIKE]

Are they the same company that supplies the military?  It sure looks like it. 

[Hawk200]

Are they the same company that supplies the military?  It sure looks like it. 

Yes, they are. I ordered some of those when I was still out in California back in '93. I saw a guy from the flightline had one around his waist, so I walked up to him, and asked to look at it. Called the company, ordered from them.

Those ones I got are still going strong, no fading , and they've held up to a lot of abuse.

[Matt]

I kinda like the reflective belts.     I would rather use them than the vests in some instances.  I think they could be particularly useful for formations and drill in the evening... Can even use them as a position identifier, depending on color and how worn.



http://reflect-a-life.com/default.asp

Let us not forget: The History of the Reflective Belt (PowerPoint Slide Show)

[desert rat]

As far as drilling I think these are great, but so is flashlights or a well lit parking lot.

As far as ground team missions I would want the most visibility you can get.  The orange vests and hats allow air crews to see the ground team better.  It also allows others on the ground see them.  This is not just for night time visibility, it is for daytime as well (mostly day for ground teams).  The orange is great in a snow environment, or a desert.

[Hawk200]

As far as ground team missions I would want the most visibility you can get.  The orange vests and hats allow air crews to see the ground team better.  It also allows others on the ground see them.  This is not just for night time visibility, it is for daytime as well (mostly day for ground teams).  The orange is great in a snow environment, or a desert.

The vests that Reflect-A-Life has are nicer, and I would guess a little more visible. And they're the same price as the ones at Vanguard.

[DNall]

I've had less success with orange over scrub. My view in general is it's very difficult to make a ground team on foot in the field (usually woods) regardless of what they are wearing, and frankly is not necessary. If it were, that's what the signal panels are for. What actually works is radio & a GPS. It's more important to ID vehicles, and to be able to mark & relay GPS from air to ground or vice versa. The only time I've found any hi-vis gear helpful was hooking up with another ground team in the field at dusk, and at that point the wistle or a good shout would have done just as well.

The stuff on vanguard is too expensive, hence won't be widely purchased. The stuff on Galls & some other similiar sites are more resonable, as is walmart, home depot, or a lot of contruction supply places.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Actually, I think DNall is right.  I've been a GTL and aircrew on missions and exercises, and you could dress your ground team up like Santa Claus and they would still be hard to spot from 1000 feet up.

I was leading a team on an exercise in OH and we were supposed to meet with an aircraft.  We stopped at a prominent road junction on the edge of a town that was on the aero chart.  We parked the CAP van, and I dismounted the team, all wearing the orange vests.  We were in radio contact with the pilot, and continuously broadcast our position relative to the aircraft as he circled, looking for us.  (We're at your 9 o'clock... now we're at your 8 o'clock... Your left turn just put us back at your 9...)  We also used orange smoke.  It took several passes for him to find us.  I didn't use flares due to the fire danger.  Mirror flashes finally did the trick. 

But what would we have done if the mission had happened on a cloudy day?

[floridacyclist]

Not sure where our vests came from....

[lordmonar]

But what would we have done if the mission had happened on a cloudy day?

Strobe light!  I carry one for just that purpose.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Not sure where our vests came from....

Why is he wearing his cover on the flight line....

[floridacyclist]

I would presume to keep from being sunburned.

[Hawk200]

But what would we have done if the mission had happened on a cloudy day?

Strobe light!  I carry one for just that purpose.

I was thinking that, but didn't know if it was a practical idea or not. May have to invest in a few Firefly's for the squadron.

[floridacyclist]

Maybe have the team lay out their panels?

Some of those cheap disposable ponchos can be pretty visible too.

I guess lighting an oil tanker truck on fire would not be acceptable huh?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Not sure where our vests came from....

Why is he wearing his cover on the flight line....

I'm tempted to point out that a bush hat would have a chin strap to prevent prop wash from blowing it away, but we've had 7 pages so far on that thread, and I don't want to go there anymore.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe have the team lay out their panels?

Some of those cheap disposable ponchos can be pretty visible too.

I guess lighting an oil tanker truck on fire would not be acceptable huh?

My frustration level was high enough that had you suggested it then, I would have seriously considered it.

I mean, if you can't spot 5 people wearing orange vests, lighting off orange smoke, standing next to a big white van AND radioing you instructions on where to look, how in the h*** are you gonna see a Cessna 150 in the grass with its wings broken off?

[floridacyclist]

I'm tempted to point out that a bush hat would have a chin strap to prevent prop wash from blowing it away, but we've had 7 pages so far on that thread, and I don't want to go there anymore.

I had actually already replied that he should have had a chinstrap on it then realized that the previous poster had replied to someone else...so I didn't go there either

Either way, he wasn't in danger....he was downwind from the taxiway with a big grass field behind him, and the aircraft turned to the right (downwind) after passing him, so propblast wasn't an issue either. He would have probably beet at greater risk from the sun than he was from being chewed up by chasing his hat out onto the taxiway.