Discussion of Moving CAP To Air Force Reserve Command

[MSG Mac]

Any moves will have to wait until the governance issue is settled.

[RiverAux]

But...the down side to that is 1st AF won't care too much about the CP or AE mission...which AETC does care about....which would hurt funding in those areas.

Not sure what the evidence is that AETC really cares about what CAP is doing in those areas either. 

Any moves will have to wait until the governance issue is settled.

Why?  CAP governance has absolutely nothing to do with where CAP-USAF fits in the AF hierarchy. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Not sure what the evidence is that AETC really cares about what CAP is doing in those areas either. 

If at all.

[flyboy53]

Not sure what the evidence is that AETC really cares about what CAP is doing in those areas either. 

If at all.

Considering that AFETC contains components like AFROTC, AFJROTC, and you have your answer. Years ago, I saw an AF Fact Sheet on CAP and was surprised to see that the cadet program was ranked first before any other mission.

Given all of the nationally-recognized operations that CAP has been involved with over the past decade, I'm pretty sure that the Air Staff is seeing that we are a force to be reckoned with. If alligning us with AFRC is, indeed, in the wings, then I would hope it is the beginning of a brighter future for us because it opens the door to other opportunities and more direct involvement like CAP-RAP.

[lordmonar]

If CAP-USAF goes under AFRC it is not going to help the CAP RAP problem.

There is just not enough man days available.....period.  It is not like AFRC is hording them because they don't appriciate CAP's mission.....they just don't have enough for their operational mission.

In my day job....I directly support an AFRC unit doing realworld combat missions in the sand box....and they are hurting for man days.

So like FW said.....nothing major will change no matter who CAP-USAF is under......there are somethings that could get better....like fall out funding, or funding for specific missions...because the new command may be able to tap some operational funds....AETC does not have access to.

But as far as CAP RAPS, more access to bases, more access to AMC flights.....that is still all driven my money/OPSTEMPO......and that is not going to change.

[flyboy53]

It's driven by money only in terms paid Mandays, and that wasn't what I meant. In the broader picture, support can have many more aspects.

CAP units on military bases are seen more for the community relations and youth program than anything else; while there are a few times when there is a direct mission tie. Why do you think Boy and Girl Scout or Explorer units are so prevelant on a military base? Yet, even on a Reserve station or base, the CAP can still be perceived as a red-headed step child, especially when so many commanders are faced with real world budetary problems.

About six months after the AF realligned its major air commands and we went from MAC, SAC, and TAC to AMC and ACC, I remember sitting in an AFRES Wing command and staff meeting and hearing the wing commander brief the staff that the DoD was shifting to a "purple base concept" where a whole spectrum of DoD or other assets/forces would start to be consolidated on different bases: First, as a cost-saving factor guaranteed to keep the base open and to keep it economically viable; Second, it also was to promote federal law that demanded that the different military services cooperated with each other for greater mission effectiveness.

Now you have so many joint-base operations where this cooperation is key and CAP itself has been pulled, kicking and screaming, through an evolution of missions away from just search and rescue to more of a Homeland Security tool where our training is more and more alligned with the National Incident Management System-- just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary.

So then (if, indeed) you move CAP under AFRES (a command that understands the citizen airmen/soldier culture because a Reservist is still a civilian unless called to active duty), and you have a new means to encourage CAP presence on a reserve base for community relations and mission effectiveness. It also means a different level of support that could be facilities, it could be hangar space, it could be new members coming from the Reserve community, or it could be Reservists volunteering with the unit for points or to gather justicification for that Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal. Don't believe me, then look at New York State, where CAP has a strong enough presence on one Reseve base that the base hosts things like the NER Chaplains Staff College, a group headquarters and composite squadron, and a three-day cadet leadership school; and the members regularly get military orientation flights -- or the three or more ANG bases or centers that host things like units, encampments, units, and even CAP operations centers.

In another part of this forum, I read about how CAP-USAF was dealing with manpower cuts that resulted in the proposed elimination of state directors.  What would happen if the move under AFRES meant that the liaision structure remained intact but composed of AFRES personnel?

[RiverAux]

Now you have so many joint-base operations where this cooperation is key and CAP itself has been pulled, kicking and screaming, through an evolution of missions away from just search and rescue to more of a Homeland Security tool where our training is more and more alligned with the National Incident Management System-- just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary.

CAP was pulled kicking and screaming to homeland security missions?  If anything the demand from CAP members to do homeland security missions is way behind the actually supply of them. 

And CAP has been and still is way ahead of the CG Aux in terms of using ICS.   CAP was using ICS long before it became a CG Aux requirement.  CG Aux doesn't even come close to being able to set up and run its own mission bases using ICS like CAP does, primarily because CG Aux almost always operates as single resources, except for a few special events here and there.  Based on my experiences, the average CAP Wing can probably set up and run a mission base using ICS just as good, if not better, than the Coast Guard can (and they rarely would anyway).

[bflynn]

Why do you think Boy and Girl Scout or Explorer units are so prevelant on a military base? Yet, even on a Reserve station or base, the CAP can still be perceived as a red-headed step child, especially when so many commanders are faced with real world budetary problems.

Unless I'm mistaken, Congress allocates the money for us, so we're not part of any military commander's real world budetary problem.  It's not like Congress says "give USAF a billion dollars and AF, you share some of that with CAP."  We're not a budget problem for any military component.  I could be wrong about that, I'm not an expert on higher level budgeting.  But I've read the bill allocating money for CAP, so we have money outside of what anyone else gives us.

I think you're talking about a different problem - you don't get perceived as a red-headed stepchild because you need money, you get perceived that way because you have an image problem.  My opinion is that we do have an image problem based on how CAP has had negative interactions with other people in the past.

I take that further and say that the negative interactions came about because of CAP culture, which goes back to leadership.  Inflexibility is a cultural component of CAP that causes friction with others.

To put it in kindergarten terms - we don't play nicely with others.  Therefore we are the red-headed stepchild.

Just observations- take them for what they are.

[Ned]

CAP units on military bases are seen more for the community relations and youth program than anything else; while there are a few times when there is a direct mission tie.

I don't want to interrupt your flow here, but may I gently remind you that CP is one of the missions of CAP?  In fact CP is the largest single mission of CAP measured by man hours expended and number of members primarily participating in and supporting it.

So by definition, anytime there is a cadet or composite unit on a military base it is indeed "a direct mission tie."

You guys may now go back to discussing USAF policy.  Just don't forget to tell Gen Schwartz what you decide he should do.

Ned Lee
CP Enthusiast

[keystone102]

Ned,

You owe me a new keyboard.

[abdsp51]

I think its a hoot how it was a discussion about moving to the reserve side and not how a decision has been made. 

And Col Lee I just got the laugh I needed for the day thank you.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well organizational now under the AF it's kind of mixed up, because although CAP is under AETC, there's also a section in the Secretary of the Air Force's office that have oversight of CAP.    CAP still is required to make a report to the Secretary of the AF every year, that hasn't changed.

For my tax money, I'd put CAP under the Air National Guard/Guard Bureau  --  We basically have the same mission of "Citizen's Serving Communities".  The NGB also has  youth programs and CAP could be folded or even expanded into this.

Some CAP wings seem to have very good relations with the National Guard (Adjutant General) in their respective states and get regular access to national guard facilities.  Perhaps they could share with other wing commanders how/why they are successful.   I would think that as an overall objective of the BOG, that would be a good goal to work.  Of course since BOG short/medium/long term objectives are never presented to the membership (or as best as I can determine even to wing commanders), who really knows.
RM   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

For my tax money, I'd put CAP under the Air National Guard/Guard Bureau  --  We basically have the same mission of "Citizen's Serving Communities".  The NGB also has  youth programs and CAP could be folded or even expanded into this.

Except that there are Title 10 issues.  The ANG operates on the state level.  We do not.  We are Federally chartered.

[bflynn]

The only catch I see in putting CAP under National Guard is that the Guard is a State based organization.  It creates quite a bit of confusion to have one national organization interfacing with 50 State organizations that all want to do things a little different.

One advantage I can see is that if CAP is under the Reserve component, that potentially increases our interfacing with JROTC and ROTC units, which I understand has been lagging over the past couple of years.

I think the AF probably sees cadet programs as the most important aspect of CAP since they probably view that as a prime recruiting pool.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think the AF probably sees cadet programs as the most important aspect of CAP since they probably view that as a prime recruiting pool.

That's been my experience, unfortunately.

I remember a visit from a State Director some years ago who didn't give a rip about senior members...it was all cadets, cadets, cadets and in his eyes our only function was to make sure the cadets got at least their Mitchell.

[bflynn]

I think the AF probably sees cadet programs as the most important aspect of CAP since they probably view that as a prime recruiting pool.

That's been my experience, unfortunately.

I remember a visit from a State Director some years ago who didn't give a rip about senior members...it was all cadets, cadets, cadets and in his eyes our only function was to make sure the cadets got at least their Mitchell.

Well, what does CAP do for the Air Force that they can't do for themselves?  You look at it from a WIIFM (what's in it for me) view, an honest answer has to be not a whole lot.  We don't do a whole lot for the Air Force other than supply them with recruits.  *shrug*, we do work for our community.

I'd like to see us out in the community a little more doing AE and promotion of civil aviation, but that's a personal desire...

[zachattack631]

Civil Air Patrol when called up by congress or the military under title 10 orders falls under Air Education Command AETC out of Maxwell AFB. CAP is the only flying unit assigned to AETC. When CAP is not on title 10 orders it is a seperate government chartered organization.

As a CAP-USAF reservist my job is oversight and to act as Liaison with CAP and the USAFR. In addition we monitor CAP assets provided by the USAF in order ensure AF assets are accounted for. We also ensure that safety measures are being followed to avoid tort law liability.

Although Im an IMA reservist with another unit I am attached as a CAP-USAF member for additional retirement points. You may wonder why you dont often see a reservist at CAP meetings events etc. Its because for the majority of the time we only get points and no pay for duty. Sometimes the Air Force comes up with some cash to provide us mandays to assist such as Cadet Encampments etc.  Most states have few if any Reservist assigned to CAP-USAF. There area active duty CAP-USAF military members but they are employed at a higher level.

I dont see CAP being assigned under active duty at any time as it is not an active duty asset.

[coudano]

CAP is the only flying unit assigned to AETC.

seriously???

[AngelWings]

CAP is the only flying unit assigned to AETC.

seriously???

I guess the 71st, 47th, and the 12th FTW don't exsist.

[PHall]

The only catch I see in putting CAP under National Guard is that the Guard is a State based organization.  It creates quite a bit of confusion to have one national organization interfacing with 50 State organizations that all want to do things a little different.

One advantage I can see is that if CAP is under the Reserve component, that potentially increases our interfacing with JROTC and ROTC units, which I understand has been lagging over the past couple of years.

I think the AF probably sees cadet programs as the most important aspect of CAP since they probably view that as a prime recruiting pool.

I take it you've never heard about the National Guard Bureau.  All 53 National Guards report to the National Guard Bureau.