Discussion of Moving CAP To Air Force Reserve Command

[sardak]

At our wing conference this past weekend, National Vice Commander BGen Vasquez said that there is discussion of moving CAP from Air Education and Training Command (AETC) to Air Force Reserve Command (AFRC).  A search of CAP Talk to make sure a thread on this hadn't already been started found none, but did find several threads where members have suggested this move.

Mike

[FW]

Moving CAP-USAF to AFRC could be possible.  If so, it may be a good thing.  For example, airlift to NCSAs and NB meetings may be possible again.  Also, it may be easier for squadrons to meet at reserve centers.

[Eclipse]

Airlift restrictions are not because of rules prohibiting them, it's because there aren't any planes or people available to do them anymore.
Other than some synergy with the CAP-RAPs, I don't see what difference it would make.

[FW]

Could be right.  However, with the drawdown in Iraq and Afganistan, AFRC aircraft may become availible.  Otherwise, there reallly won't be any difference to CAP.

[Eclipse]

Personally, I think better connectivity with the National Guard, both Air and Army, would be a better idea.

Their staffing model is a lot closer to ours (i.e. less regular duty, more sensitivity to civilian employment and other concerns, etc.), and
their mission includes domestic operations.    Their split universe of state / federal engagement might make them more benevolent to our
own split personality of federal / corporate.

[RiverAux]

Don't recall this suggestion though for a while folks here were hot and heavy to put us in the National Guard Bureau. 

I'd be surprised if they did it considering how they just put us in with all the ROTC/JROTC folks. 

Frankly, given how little interaction with actually have with the Air Force in regular life, I don't think it makes a bit of difference where we (really meaning CAP-USAF, not CAP) are placed within the AF administrative structure.   

[Major Carrales]

Interesting...however, such a move only provides benefits if people on both the CAP and USAF Reserve are on the same page for a "closer relationship" to exist.

There is lots of potential...but again, what is really possible IAW prevailing attitude by both parties.

Sirs, what would be the...

1) Best case scenario... (pipe dream)

2) Worst case scenario... (exaggeration)

3) Most likely turn of events (realist view)

...in your informed and professional opinion en re CAP?

[lordmonar]

If we are going to do something like this...why no just go directly under ACC and 1st AF?

[FW]

As I said previously, there will not be much difference in CAP-USAF becoming part of AFRC to CAP.  However, the larger the organization, the more difficut it will be for the CAP-USAF/CC to get their agenda passed up the chain.  This could be problematic to us in getting uniform requests accepted and, funding changes approved.  AFRC is much larger than AU.  It also has a mission which is not really in line with all of CAP's mandates. 

So, in summary, I have no idea...

[coudano]

The holm center is definitely the right place for the cadet program, no problems there on any level that I can think of.

The problem comes with CAP's multi-role nature.
ES does not fit very well under the holm center, I tend to agree that it probably fits best under 1AF...


USAF is not generally structured to deal with situations "like this" and when you see other organizations in USAF structure who don't fit neatly into a box, you start seeing them thrown 'wherever' or wherever is the 'best fit' even if it isn't a great fit.



Regardless, I don't think NGB would be a very good move for CAP at all.

CAP is bigger than AFRC.  Not quite sure they would "want" that elephant in the room with them (heh)

[RiverAux]

I can only come up with a couple of advantages to being under AFRC:

1.  CAP-USAF is mostly made up of Reservists (are there any AD folks in it?), so maybe being with the rest of the reservists may be administratively easier to some extent.  Not being familiar with how all that paperwork moves, I don't really know if this would be the case or not. 
2.  Being under Holms center hasn't offered any benefits to the cadet program or CAP as a whole that I'm aware of.  So, moving away wouldn't hurt us any. 
3.  Having two different cadet programs under one roof at the AETC makes the overlap between the two glaringly obvious and I would think make either somewhat vulnerable to being cut as redundant.  So, "hiding" us under AFRC makes it somewhat harder for the average waste-cutter to notice this. 

[SARDOC]

I find it funny that while under the AETC/Air University we actually lost access as CAP members to classes/courses available at AU.  Instead of actually being integrated into the Command we have actually moved our own education and training away from AU.  I'm not sure if that was our move or the AU's unwillingness to adapt to our customer needs.  Maybe the Reserve Command might be better.

[ZigZag911]

If we leave AETC, will National HQ (eventually) need to move elsewhere?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If we leave AETC, will National HQ (eventually) need to move elsewhere?

I do not see why.  There are AFRC units on Maxwell; the 908th Airlift Wing is there.  There are AFRC tenant units on many Air Force and Air National Guard bases.

As SARDOC pointed out, we've been moved out of AETC, whether or not we did it or they did it.

I have never seen the logic of having Air University oversee us.  We are not a school, though of course we do training.

This would be going back to our "roots" in a way, when we were overseen by Continental Air Command.

Even though working with the ANG/ARNG is a good thing, I don't think we could be under their command (though the Army might actually treat us better than the benign indifference we've got from the AF for about the past 20 years; I know I personally get a more cordial reception from Army personnel I meet) because of Title 10 issues.  We would have to be organisationally reconfigured to operate at the State, rather than Federal, level, and in doing so we might step on the toes of various SDF's.  Remember that the basic role of the ANG/ARNG is to be the Army and Air Force of the states and territories when not in Federal service, responsible to Governors and Adjutant Generals.

I'm not saying it would be a bad thing, but it would potentially take a big reorganisation on our part.

I also believe that AFRC would be much more accustomed to part-time personnel than AETC.  ESGR doesn't apply to us, but who knows what help they may be able to offer in mediation between a CAP member wanting to take time off for CAP and their employer, since the laws about that vary widely from state to state?

In our present situation, other than "the devil you know v. the devil you don't" syndrome, what is to our advantage being part of AETC?  How many in AETC even know or care who we are, much less support our mission, outside of Colonel Gloyd and his staff?

My first squadron had a member who was also in the Air Force Reserve (1st Lt. with CAP, MSgt with AFRES).  He was not a CAP-RAP, but he was able to secure a lot of things for us at the local Reserve installation for training, billeting, mess privileges, etc...and that was an informal relationship with him acting as a "bridge" between our unit and his wing king (who was very supportive of CAP, God bless him).

Who knows what benefits a more formal relationship could bring?  As it stands now, I would use the term "stagnant" to describe our relationship with the AF.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Their split universe of state / federal engagement might make them more benevolent to our own split personality of federal / corporate.

I wouldn't want to encourage that at all.  That schizoid nature is one of the big hobbles on CAP.

[wuzafuzz]

Perhaps reservists could fill some of the gaps left by the loss of state directors.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps reservists could fill some of the gaps left by the loss of state directors.

There's already a specific position created for that - each wing will appoint a volunteer member with military and program experience to
liaison with military bases, o-rides, and assist with other duties normally done by the former SD's.

The problem with having reservists do it is that they cost money.

[bflynn]

I can only come up with a couple of advantages to being under AFRC:

1.  CAP-USAF is mostly made up of Reservists (are there any AD folks in it?), so maybe being with the rest of the reservists may be administratively easier to some extent.  Not being familiar with how all that paperwork moves, I don't really know if this would be the case or not. 
2.  Being under Holms center hasn't offered any benefits to the cadet program or CAP as a whole that I'm aware of.  So, moving away wouldn't hurt us any. 
3.  Having two different cadet programs under one roof at the AETC makes the overlap between the two glaringly obvious and I would think make either somewhat vulnerable to being cut as redundant.  So, "hiding" us under AFRC makes it somewhat harder for the average waste-cutter to notice this.

One of the ongoing issues is coordination with the Air Force given the decreasing number of active duty slots dedicated to CAP.  AFRC probably has more manpower available that could provide much better AF oversight.  They're going to pay the reservists anyway...

It's not a horrible idea.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I personally don't see much plus to changing, I don't see much negative either. Maybe USAF just thinks thy will be able to use us better, more efficiently, or I'm sure they have a valid reason for it somewhere. But I don't think it would do much to us. Would it?

[abdsp51]

Air University falls under AETC.