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May 2012 NEC agenda

Started by keystone102, April 12, 2012, 12:59:16 PM

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bflynn

Quote from: Ned on April 12, 2012, 06:46:14 PM
So, what exactly are your "concerns with the NEC comments?"

CAP mixes adult cadets and minor cadets as participants in the same program and the NEC comments were supporting and/or endorsing such an arrangement. 

At some future date, if there is an issue with an adult cadet fraternizing with a minor cadet, CAP could be found to be complicit.  I obviously am too deeply involved in looking at Risk Management at work. 

This is an issue that I think as been beat to death.  It was meant as an off-hand comment, not a deep discussion.

Ref: 11 vs 12 - my mistake.

a2capt

The lack of transferring in the "probationary" period, too.

There are times when a unit just doesn't match. Making it harder isn't the solution. They find a different one nearby that meets on another night, or that has a different focus, whatever. Don't make it harder.

This is more overreach looking for a problem. The problem members have not been the new ones, it's been the ingrained, clique-headed, GoB's.

Spaceman3750

The only place this is going to go is down a road paved with a lot of former 2-month members who were booted without cause because of some minor personality conflict or some other petty issue. There's too many problem commanders out there (you know, the ones that "know better" and like to run things the way they think it should be run, the way "they did it in the Army", or the way it was BITD instead of the way it's written) for this to work.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2012, 01:24:54 PM
I think the comments are spot-on and that changes of this nature should be coming from the CP directorate, not the Legal Directorate.

I agree with that, and chuckled when I saw that this comes (clearly) mainly from  perceived "liability' side of things. What I would REALLY like to know, is how many cadets stay active after 18. I know I would have loved to, but my college situation prevented me from actively participating. Some are lucky and have a University unit, or a nearby unit that is accessible. But really, out of the 12% who are over 18, what is the actual weekly-active count?

EMT-83

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 12, 2012, 07:42:22 PM
Why does it say that the youngest cadet is 11yrs?

My biggest concern is the new member probation period of six months, with the ability To terminate without cause. This would greatly discourage new members. It could also be construed by the new member that they may be terminated due to a disability or other protected factor. And yes, I understand that it may not be expressed that they an be terminated without cause.

A non-issue. This is prohibited by CAPR 36-1.

RiverAux

Item 8:
NESA, Hawk, and NBB are "regional training centers"?  Just what sort of regional level training is taking place at these sites other than the national special activities?  While I know there are some physical facilities at Hawk requiring upkeep, what is being spent on the other two places?  What is the plan for expanding their use to true regional facilities? 

Item 11:  creation of a sixth month probationary period for new members during which they can be kicked out without cause.  Like the commenters on the agenda, I sort of like the idea -- especially the uniform purchase requirement, though I would modify it to say that they must purchase the minimum service uniform in the regulation not just ANY uniform combo.  Do agree it needs some more work.

Item 12 -- cadet age limits.
This makes a lot of sense to me:
QuoteAny cadet member who has not achieved the Earhart Award by the time he/she turns
eighteen (18) years old will be required to become a senior member.
If you're under 18 and haven't gotten that far, its very unlikely you're going to make it to Spaatz anyway.  There is no rational reason to allow over 18 to stay cadets while not allowing someone over 18 to join as a cadet.  If, as NHQ says that it isn't to give them time to progress in the cadet program and that any time spent in the program over 18 is worth it in and of itself, we should be letting 18-21 year olds join as cadets. 

I don't buy the comment about it damaging recruitment of 16-17 year olds -- unless there are some statistics out there that I haven't seen, we really don't get a lot that join at that age. 

Find it interesting that the average age that the Eagle Scout is earned is 17 whereas the average age of a CAP Spaatz cadet is 17-20.  Why are our cadets such slackers?  (jokingly asking a serious question).  Actually, that sort of helps the proposal in that since Boy Scouts have to earn Eagle by 18, they tend to do it while ours know they've got a lot of years of potential and don't really push as hard as they could.  They may think they're going to stay in CAP after high school and still work on it, but they don't seem to really do it much. 

Item 18.  Aircrew Professionalism Program.  Great, another mandatory program on the way. 

Item 16 Triangle thingy adoption.  --- Hadn't realized they were going to spend some money to come up with something to replace the trinagle thingy.  Great, I'm sure they came up with something even worse.


Eclipse

#26
Quote from: RiverAux on April 12, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
Item 8:
NESA, Hawk, and NBB are "regional training centers"?  Just what sort of regional level training is taking place at these sites other than the national special activities?  While I know there are some physical facilities at Hawk requiring upkeep, what is being spent on the other two places?  What is the plan for expanding their use to true regional facilities? 

The NESA facilities are used year-round for all sorts of training and related CAP activities.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: RiverAux on April 12, 2012, 11:42:48 PM

Item 12 -- cadet age limits.
This makes a lot of sense to me:
QuoteAny cadet member who has not achieved the Earhart Award by the time he/she turns
eighteen (18) years old will be required to become a senior member.
If you're under 18 and haven't gotten that far, its very unlikely you're going to make it to Spaatz anyway.  There is no rational reason to allow over 18 to stay cadets while not allowing someone over 18 to join as a cadet.  If, as NHQ says that it isn't to give them time to progress in the cadet program and that any time spent in the program over 18 is worth it in and of itself, we should be letting 18-21 year olds join as cadets. 

I don't buy the comment about it damaging recruitment of 16-17 year olds -- unless there are some statistics out there that I haven't seen, we really don't get a lot that join at that age. 

Find it interesting that the average age that the Eagle Scout is earned is 17 whereas the average age of a CAP Spaatz cadet is 17-20.  Why are our cadets such slackers?  (jokingly asking a serious question).  Actually, that sort of helps the proposal in that since Boy Scouts have to earn Eagle by 18, they tend to do it while ours know they've got a lot of years of potential and don't really push as hard as they could.  They may think they're going to stay in CAP after high school and still work on it, but they don't seem to really do it much. 

I think Mitchell by 18 would have made more sense. 38 months for the program, 18 months for Mitchell, leaves 36 months to complete 20 months of program. That said, I have run into 16-17 year olds who have joined CAP. Most however figure college will pull them away, and they turn down the opportunity. For others, the thought of starting with 12/13 year olds is the issue. The last group isn't the one I'd want in my ranks anyway.

NCRblues

Quote from: RiverAux on April 12, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
Item 8:
NESA, Hawk, and NBB are "regional training centers"?  Just what sort of regional level training is taking place at these sites other than the national special activities?  While I know there are some physical facilities at Hawk requiring upkeep, what is being spent on the other two places?  What is the plan for expanding their use to true regional facilities? 


The Oshkosh facility is a large permanent barracks, command building and dining facility/meeting area. It has a large upkeep bill because of the amount of use and age.

The facility is not only used by NBB but another NCSA and used by WI wing and GLR for training activities as well as some local squadrons.
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

RiverAux

Good to hear.  Thought NESA was at a military facility.

Eclipse

#30
Quote from: RiverAux on April 13, 2012, 01:09:42 AM
Good to hear.  Thought NESA was at a military facility.

It's at Camp Atterbury Joint Maneuver Training Center, but they have a lot of their own buildings and billeting now.

"That Others May Zoom"

manfredvonrichthofen

It's also a nice facility. I like having it pretty much in my back yard.

sarmed1

HMRS hosts at least 1 training weekend, usually 2 most every month from about Feb thru June, then usually 1 each thru Nov.  Participation is usually PA specific, however I have seen representation from most of the wings in the region and many of the weekends.

mk
Capt.  Mark "K12" Kleibscheidel

ProdigalJim

On another topic from the Agenda...did anyone notice the $1,000 fee for the dreaded Triangle Thingy?

That, plus the hint that the Command Patch could eventually find itself Triangle Thingied?  :o
Jim Mathews, Lt. Col., CAP
VAWG/XP
My Mitchell Has Four Digits...

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: ProdigalJim on April 13, 2012, 06:10:45 AM
On another topic from the Agenda...did anyone notice the $1,000 fee for the dreaded Triangle Thingy?

That, plus the hint that the Command Patch could eventually find itself Triangle Thingied?  :o
I would never wear the flight suit again if the command patch got triangle thingy'd. I think the command patch is an awesome logo. It shows a nice tie to USAF, and it does show distinguish ability because it is full color, if you can't tell the difference between a full color patch and a subdued patch, the. That is your fault for not paying any sort of attention to your military, civilian or not. And the type of civilians that can't distinguish a uniform by branch isn't someone I am very concerned about displaying myself to. Personally there should be some requirement to be an American citizen, be it a test or military service including CAP. There are too many American citizens that Don't know enough about America. I don't mean to sound harsh, but when you watch tv you can see some things on certain channels that show American citizens being asked questions about who presidents are and what is the declaration of independence and some will just have a blank Starr, I am sure that is the same general population that can't tell one branch from another by what their uniform says boldly on their chest... Civil Air Patrol Right across the chest should at least brig about... Hey I have never heard of that branch... What is it? Well it's not really a branch, we are an auxiliary... The triangle thingy is not a very good branding logo to market CAP, and the only reason the star logo has worked for the army is because the army has been around since 1775, and is very strong in public image and mind. So strong that the logo they adopted isn't even what people recognize, it is the wording underneath it... U.S. Army. Our command patch is distinct enough and recognizable enough that it should be able to be used as our branding logo.

arajca

Quote from: ProdigalJim on April 13, 2012, 06:10:45 AM
On another topic from the Agenda...did anyone notice the $1,000 fee for the dreaded Triangle Thingy?

That, plus the hint that the Command Patch could eventually find itself Triangle Thingied?  :o
As I read it, it's not for the ttt per say, but to come up with a corporate branding logo. Which may or may not be the ttt.

Hopefully not.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 12, 2012, 07:42:22 PM
My biggest concern is the new member probation period of six months, with the ability To terminate without cause. This would greatly discourage new members. It could also be construed by the new member that they may be terminated due to a disability or other protected factor. And yes, I understand that it may not be expressed that they an be terminated without cause.

I read that and came to the same conclusion.  This is a potential minefield, especially in our litigious society.

Quote from: a2capt on April 12, 2012, 08:05:27 PM
The problem members have not been the new ones, it's been the ingrained, clique-headed, GoB's.

Hear ye, hear ye!  :clap:

Most new people don't know enough about CAP to learn what is/isn't prohibited.  If someone is just being a jerk, the chances are that they'll be in need of command intervention as it is.

Unfortunately, the types a2capt mentioned have learnt to navigate round the system to (usually) keep their conduct from being a basis for termination.

As for TTT, it was silly to change the command patch.  Ain't no way I'm wearin' TTT.  I'd much rather wear the logo branded as "dated."

If nothing else, make the "Overseas" patch a universal option throughout CAP.  It already exists, it's tied up with our history and it doesn't stink.


Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Eclipse

The idea we would want to separate ourselves from our auxiliary nature seems somewhat misguided and "of the world" for lack of a better term.

If anything we should embrace it and use it as something which distinguishes us from the masses.

It won't help retention any more to have us looking like the EAA to then have the cadet show up and be told to fall into formation.
They are likely to never come back in the same way a pilot who sees a glass 182 on a ramp at an airshow leaves when he finds
out at his first meeting that the only unit for 200 miles has no pilot or airplane.

We are, what we are, and watering that down, trying to artificially change the image, or market our way to member numbers won't work.

The best thing we can do for marketing, retention, and the health of the program is to start reading the regs, work the actual
program, and let people vote with their feet.  members having fun and contributing to the greater good are the only marketing tool we need.

I've said for years that we need a campaign that stress' the "what did you do this weekend" aspect of CAP.

"I got 1 billion on space munchies".

"I caught up on reruns".

" I learned to fly a plane!"

"I helped a bunch of people after a tornado."

"I met Chuck Yeager!"

Etc, etc.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2012, 02:12:45 PM
I've said for years that we need a campaign that stress' the "what did you do this weekend" aspect of CAP.

"I got 1 billion on space munchies".

"I caught up on reruns".

" I learned to fly a plane!"

"I helped a bunch of people after a tornado."

"I met Chuck Yeager!"

That's going to the PA/CP staff at my squadron... :)

wuzafuzz

Complaints the CAP emblem is "dated" and the assertion we need a "friendly type" logo are laughable.  This apparent wringing of hands and embarrassment of our identity and history are disappointing.  I sincerely wish our leadership would stop apologizing for our relationship with the Air Force.  If we feel the need for a unique logo in education settings, why not create a logo for that program and leave everything else alone?

As for the CAP emblem being dated, I suspect the American Red Cross has no issues with the long history of their logo.  Many organizations have updated their logo because they felt some need for change.  My own employer recently discarded one of the most recognizable logos in favor of a replacement that looks like a pile of rabbit droppings.  We paid a lot of money for that laughing stock.  Even if CAP pays a professional design firm there is no guarantee of a quality product.  In the end a design firm will create ideas for our leaders to choose from.  If the decision makers are those who love the idea of a sissy logo for CAP the result will be disappointing.  An intense desire for change sometimes leads us in bizarre directions.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the thought of change that bothers me.  It's possible we could wind up with a logo that suits all our programs without apologizing for our true identity.  Unfortunately I'm left with little faith after reading the agenda.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."