Idea: 2 Years of College for all CAP Officers

[A.Member]

Thus, the reinstatement of enlisted ranks for adult members.  It solves the issue quite nicely.

Sorry, to be blunt, but you gonna pony up the funding to do that? It would take money that we don't have. So it doesn't get solved "quite nicely".

It's easy enough to accomodate prior service NCOs. They are already trained as NCOs. Bringing in a new enlisted progression program will cost us in many ways. Ways that we don't have the resources to support.

No need to apologize...

But what need for funding are you referring to?  The need for additional funding is nearly non-existant.  It's reorganizing the rank structure.  Rather than entering as a SM (without rank/grade), new members would enter as an E-1.  As they progress through various training, they earn higher ranks and greater responsibility.   Aside from creating new enlisted ranks insignias (which is no big deal because members end up paying for these items anyway) what else do you have?  

Training manuals and documents are in need of revision anyway, thus, the timing is perfect.  Developing standards for a new rank progression is not overly difficult.    

[mikeylikey]

The military requires degree (bachelor degree to get beyond Captain I think).  But, one benefit for a degree is that it requires four years of the person's life, giving him four more years of experience and maturity.  And I can see that.  For the most part, I wouldn't want some 18 year old fresh out of high school leading me into combat.

Most of Cap's members have a lot of years under their belt.

Funny you say that, I have met a lot of 18 year olds that are more mature and have better leadership ability than a 22 year old 2LT.  There are 18 year old lieutenants in the Army Reserve right now.  They came out of the ROTC Early Commissioning Program, which requires them to get an associate degree, commission, join a reserve unit and complete their BA/BS degree.  ROTC (by a different name then) in high schools years ago commissioned graduating high school seniors.  However this was changed shortly after 1920. 

College/ University requirements should not be brought into CAP.  Instead lets bring back the program from the 1940's that trained Cadets to be CAP Officers.  Make the "wait six months for 2nd Lt" thing disappear.  Every new adult that joins will be a Senior Member for a whole year.  During that time they will attend their local meetings and complete specific educational tasks locally.  They will be assigned to a mentor in their SQD that will guide them through the year long process.  After 1 year, they get 2nd Lt and their National dues are waived for the second year!  Almost like a reward.

[Major Carrales]

In what ways would reinstating enlisted grades for senior members be a burden financially?  I don't doubt it, just wondering what the costs would be. 

So a Senior Member goes to an NCO academy instead of a Region Staff College...I don't see much of an additional burden.

[Guardrail]

So a Senior Member goes to an NCO academy instead of a Region Staff College...I don't see much of an additional burden.

Well, creating a National NCO Academy would be a financial burden, if the funds aren't available. 

[Major Carrales]

So a Senior Member goes to an NCO academy instead of a Region Staff College...I don't see much of an additional burden.

Well, creating a National NCO Academy would be a financial burden, if the funds aren't available. 

Make it an element of and in conjunction with the Region Staff College.  Share costs.  Or better yet, charge the full price for tuition for an NCO academy.  This would mean only the most dedicated Senior would try to be an NCO.  facilities...it is only prohibitive if you make it so.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Guardrail:

You might want to check out "Clarification of Officer Qualifications in the New CAP," since this has been beat around more than a soccer ball at an Irish-English match.

Looking at other officer accession programs is a valid method of comparison, and a starting point to consider and discuss modifying our program.

Agreed, sir.  Question: are you in favor of both 2 yrs. college and OTS for new CAP officers, or just OTS?

I would add this, however.  College cannot replace the idea of an OTS.  College teaches one thing, OTS teaches another.  Plus the process of going through OTS is a bonding experience with your classmates, and begins the proces of networking.

Plus you can't have cadets knowing more about D&C then their officers.

This is true.  I think a great starting point is to look at how Iowa Wing created their OTS, and see how it could be replicated nation-wide. 

Guardrail:

The short version of my proposal is:

Commissioned grade requires BS/BA degree.  A selection board MAY waiver that requirement if an applicant has either AA/AS degree, 2 years of college toward a BA/BS, a private or higher pilot rating, or 6 months full time vocational training.  I'm looking for someone with the brains and the fortitude to finish what they start.  Lots of people take a few college courses, get into the partying, and never finish their freshman year.

Flight Officer grades (W-1 thru W-5) would be available to anybody falling short of the commissioned grade requirements.  Flight officers would not be able to command units above squadrons, but could do any other officer job.

Commissioned and flight officers attend the same OTS and have the same PD requirements, except the FO's are fully-qualified at Level 4.

NCO grades would be limited to prior-service NCO's who opt to remain NCO's.

A new class of enlisted members would be created, with unit-level training and duties, and promotions automatic to a maximum grade of SrA.    This would be at the member's option, for the "Soccer Mom" members who join with their cadets and just want to help out driving and escorting cadets around the local unit.  This replaces the Polo-Shirt members who do this now.

[Hawk200]

In what ways would reinstating enlisted grades for senior members be a burden financially?  I don't doubt it, just wondering what the costs would be. 

So a Senior Member goes to an NCO academy instead of a Region Staff College...I don't see much of an additional burden.

OK, tell you what. You get to write the NCO academy course. Keep in mind you have to include all leadership materials related to NCO's. You can't just relabel officer material. And it should be as in depth as RSC is. Just to make sure that they're receiving the same quality as RSC.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. You should be able to put together most of the enlisted progression program structure.

My point? Revamping the officer program would be far easier than essentially creating a double size program (which revamping officers, and creating enlisted would be). I think that prior service NCO's should have some progression options, but I don't think that we need an all new enlisted program. Let's fix our current problems before we go creating new ones.

[A.Member]

The short version of my proposal is:

Commissioned grade requires BS/BA degree.  A selection board MAY waiver that requirement if an applicant has either AA/AS degree, 2 years of college toward a BA/BS, a private or higher pilot rating, or 6 months full time vocational training.  I'm looking for someone with the brains and the fortitude to finish what they start.  Lots of people take a few college courses, get into the partying, and never finish their freshman year.

Flight Officer grades (W-1 thru W-5) would be available to anybody falling short of the commissioned grade requirements.  Flight officers would not be able to command units above squadrons, but could do any other officer job.

Commissioned and flight officers attend the same OTS and have the same PD requirements, except the FO's are fully-qualified at Level 4.

NCO grades would be limited to prior-service NCO's who opt to remain NCO's.

A new class of enlisted members would be created, with unit-level training and duties, and promotions automatic to a maximum grade of SrA.    This would be at the member's option, for the "Soccer Mom" members who join with their cadets and just want to help out driving and escorting cadets around the local unit.  This replaces the Polo-Shirt members who do this now.

I agree with the officer portion.  Not sure I buy into the need for the FO's.  Seems we could do away with FO's as well.  Why not just have a truly "enlisted" category and allow progression up through NCO grades?  The NCO grades do not have to be held exclusively for prior service NCOs (afterall, we don't treat prior service officer grades any differently). 

[Major Carrales]

In what ways would reinstating enlisted grades for senior members be a burden financially?  I don't doubt it, just wondering what the costs would be. 

So a Senior Member goes to an NCO academy instead of a Region Staff College...I don't see much of an additional burden.

OK, tell you what. You get to write the NCO academy course. Keep in mind you have to include all leadership materials related to NCO's. You can't just relabel officer material. And it should be as in depth as RSC is. Just to make sure that they're receiving the same quality as RSC.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. You should be able to put together most of the enlisted progression program structure.

My point? Revamping the officer program would be far easier than essentially creating a double size program (which revamping officers, and creating enlisted would be). I think that prior service NCO's should have some progression options, but I don't think that we need an all new enlisted program. Let's fix our current problems before we go creating new ones.

This confirms my suspicion that we may not really need an NCO corps.  Merely let them carry on from their current rank with a promotion mechanism.

[Guardrail]

This confirms my suspicion that we may not really need an NCO corps.  Merely let them carry on from their current rank with a promotion mechanism.

I like Major Kachenmeister's plan, which is to allow only military NCO's into the CAP's NCO corps, but allow civilian senior members who elect to be enlisted the option to do so only up to SrA.

That way, those who are CSM's, senior members who mainly transport cadets around, and those who do other jobs that most junior enlisteds in the military do can do so and not be 'extra baggage' in the squadron.

As far as letting prior-enlisted senior members a mechanism to promote within CAP as an NCO, I like that.  Question is, how?   

[Major Carrales]

This confirms my suspicion that we may not really need an NCO corps.  Merely let them carry on from their current rank with a promotion mechanism.

I like Major Kachenmeister's plan, which is to allow only military NCO's into the CAP's NCO corps, but allow civilian senior members who elect to be enlisted the option to do so only up to SrA.

That way, those who are CSM's, senior members who mainly transport cadets around, and those who do other jobs that most junior enlisteds in the military do can do so and not be 'extra baggage' in the squadron.

As far as letting prior-enlisted senior members a mechanism to promote within CAP as an NCO, I like that.  Question is, how?   

I agree with John's plan although I have not said much about it here.  It is sound.

As for a promotion mechinism for NCOs being an issue, let me remind the populace that CAP rank is an internal functionality.  Thus, I see no problem with a Prior Service NCO who was at one RANK be promoted to another within CAP.  It would not change that person's status as a Veteran or the like.   It woudl diminish the current honor paid to NCOs.

In any structure where a CAP NCO was to be promoted I think one would have to modify the insignia of the NCO.  Maybe the "tri-prop and triangle" in the center of the chevron.  Why, because they are no longer being honored for tehir position as a former NCO.  One can't have it both ways (Goose/Gander issue).

I can see VANGAURD LICKING its CHOPS as we type at the thought of selling CAP distinctive NCO rank...

Remember this is all flight of fancy.

[Guardrail]

In any structure where a CAP NCO was to be promoted I think one would have to modify the insignia of the NCO.  Maybe the "tri-prop and triangle" in the center of the chevron.

Nice idea, but I don't think it would fly with the Air Force.  It would look too much like the current Air Force enlisted grade insignia (at least on the service dress).  I've thought of this too, and I think it would look great.  But from a distance, it would be hard to distinguish from CAP and Air Force. 
 

I can see VANGAURD LICKING its CHOPS as we type at the thought of selling CAP distinctive NCO rank...

Remember this is all flight of fancy.

Yes sir, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some folks from Vanguard reading this right now.

[lordmonar]

Another problem with gate keeper requirments.  Is that you lock out a large portion of your membership from leadership positions.  No matter how qualified the guy is..how much leadership/management ability he has or how much experince he has with CAP....he cannot command.

It is simple as that.

So you have some guy who can manage multi-million dollar companies with hundreds of employees but you tell him he can't manage a squadron with one plane, one van, $60K of comm gear and 50 members.

Is this really a smart use of our primary resource...our people?

So I go back to my orginal statement.  any attempt to improve CAP officers with a gate keeper requirement is not in our best intrests.

BTW...I have both a AS and BA degree so it would not effect me either way.

[A.Member]

So you have some guy who can manage multi-million dollar companies with hundreds of employees but you tell him he can't manage a squadron with one plane, one van, $60K of comm gear and 50 members.

I'm sure you'd be one of the first to admit that the likelihood of encountering such a situation is remote at best.  Certainly much more the exception than the rule.  Just as with the "real" Air Force, if we wanted, a waiver could be justified for those rare cases.  I doubt it would be all that necessary however.

[Guardrail]

I've come to realize that requiring 2 years of college for all CAP officers (or degrees for that matter) would be a better idea if we had some sort of enlisted structure like the one for the cadet program.  Then the gate keeper requirements would make more sense.

[JamesG5223]

In what ways would reinstating enlisted grades for senior members be a burden financially?  I don't doubt it, just wondering what the costs would be. 

Let's see...design and implementation of an adult NCO training program--for starters.  This would require a complete redesign of the entire "adult" program in CAP into two tracks--officers and NCO's.  Then you'll have to design a crossover curriculum for those who decide later on to become officers after 20 years of membership, and may want to consider a curriculum for the reverse.

In terms of simply hours, you're talking about a minimum of a couple thousand person-hours involved in the development and testing of a completely new curriculum for CAP NCO's.  That probably means putting the National staff on the job full-time for a year or so as well as hiring additional experts on NCO programs at National. 

And, the curriculum must be robust.  It must offer to a CAP member a meaningful program as a volunteer, not just a "that's how it's done in the USAF, so it's good enough here."

Then we need to add the propeller/triangle in some fashion to the NCO insignia in a manner that will distinguish it from USAF and cadet NCO insignia.

Then we have to re-write almost every CAP regulation, pamphlet and manual to add adult NCO's where appropriate.

I project the minimum cost to CAP to implement a meaningful adult NCO program at $750,000 and probably more.  Of course, this is amortized over a period of time, but still, it would represent a significant cost to CAP.

And that does not count the cost of development of the new officer program.

[lordmonar]

So you have some guy who can manage multi-million dollar companies with hundreds of employees but you tell him he can't manage a squadron with one plane, one van, $60K of comm gear and 50 members.

I'm sure you'd be one of the first to admit that the likelihood of encountering such a situation is remote at best.  Certainly much more the exception than the rule.  Just as with the "real" Air Force, if we wanted, a waiver could be justified for those rare cases.  I doubt it would be all that necessary however.

There are at least four such people in my squadron right now.  Also I am a 20 year USAF NCO...I know hundreds of NCOs (not just SNCOs) who were much more capable of leading a small squadron while we all know there are lots of 1st and 2nd Lts who need maps and a cheat sheet to make to the bathroom on time.

Improving the quality of our officers is a good thing.  But lets do thing to improve what we have and not just put up artifical road blocks.

That is poor resource manangement.

[Major Carrales]

In what ways would reinstating enlisted grades for senior members be a burden financially?  I don't doubt it, just wondering what the costs would be. 

Let's see...design and implementation of an adult NCO training program--for starters.  This would require a complete redesign of the entire “adult” program in CAP into two tracks--officers and NCO’s.  Then you’ll have to design a crossover curriculum for those who decide later on to become officers after 20 years of membership, and may want to consider a curriculum for the reverse.

In terms of simply hours, you’re talking about a minimum of a couple thousand person-hours involved in the development and testing of a completely new curriculum for CAP NCO’s.  That probably means putting the National staff on the job full-time for a year or so as well as hiring additional experts on NCO programs at National. 

And, the curriculum must be robust.  It must offer to a CAP member a meaningful program as a volunteer, not just a “that’s how it’s done in the USAF, so it’s good enough here.”

Then we need to add the propeller/triangle in some fashion to the NCO insignia in a manner that will distinguish it from USAF and cadet NCO insignia.

Then we have to re-write almost every CAP regulation, pamphlet and manual to add adult NCO’s where appropriate.

I project the minimum cost to CAP to implement a meaningful adult NCO program at $750,000 and probably more.  Of course, this is amortized over a period of time, but still, it would represent a significant cost to CAP.

And that does not count the cost of development of the new officer program.

Ah...so your saying this sort of cost is only justified when its about a uniform item like the MAJCOM patch...eh

Just kidding...in any case, I don't think NOCs are gonna make it into CAP any time soon in any ohter form than the status quo.  And if they are "sprung" prematurely it will be the latest fiasco.

No, this needs to be thought out totally and, if there are to be NCOs in a capacity remotely close to what many of us have described...it would be criminal to proceed in a haphazzard manner.  The waste of money on teh order of 700,000 or more would buy lots of air craft radios and cloth losts of cadets.

[Guardrail]

In what ways would reinstating enlisted grades for senior members be a burden financially?  I don't doubt it, just wondering what the costs would be. 

Let's see...design and implementation of an adult NCO training program--for starters.  This would require a complete redesign of the entire "adult" program in CAP into two tracks officers and NCO's.  Then you'll have to design a crossover curriculum for those who decide later on to become officers after 20 years of membership, and may want to consider a curriculum for the reverse.

In terms of simply hours, you're talking about a minimum of a couple thousand person-hours involved in the development and testing of a completely new curriculum for CAP NCO's.  That probably means putting the National staff on the job full-time for a year or so as well as hiring additional experts on NCO programs at National. 

And, the curriculum must be robust.  It must offer to a CAP member a meaningful program as a volunteer, not just a "that's how it's done in the USAF, so it's good enough here."

Then we need to add the propeller/triangle in some fashion to the NCO insignia in a manner that will distinguish it from USAF and cadet NCO insignia.

Then we have to re-write almost every CAP regulation, pamphlet and manual to add adult NCO's where appropriate.

I project the minimum cost to CAP to implement a meaningful adult NCO program at $750,000 and probably more.  Of course, this is amortized over a period of time, but still, it would represent a significant cost to CAP.

Thanks, Lt Col Garlough.  This helps put the budget issue in perspective. 

Sir, what do you think about Major Kachenmeister's idea of keeping the NCO program the way it is but allowing civilians to join at AB and be able to go up to SrA?  This would allow those officers who join primarily to drive cadets around and do other jobs most junior enlisteds to do, or join to support a cadet in the program, to do so without being 'extra baggage' in the squadron officer corps. 

Also, Maj Caralles suggested that there be some sort of way for military NCOs who join CAP as NCOs to be able to promote through the NCO grades within CAP.  Do you envision a cost-effective way to do this?

[lordmonar]

Also, Maj Caralles suggested that there be some sort of way for military NCOs who join CAP as NCOs to be able to promote through the NCO grades within CAP.  Do you envision a cost-effective way to do this?

I thought the general consensus was that advanced promotions were bad?