Transfering Units

[colkemp]

So lets say we have a cadet that recently got demoted. Now this demotion in my was from Master Sgt to Senior Airman. He is only a week from earning his Staff Sgt back. He was demoted for havinga argument with another cadet on facebook that led to disrespectful words. I think the demotion was not neccesarry but thats a different story. He was mostly demoted because he was the higher rank. Now this cadet has been doing good in his unit. But feels that he has a black mark against him.  He is a GTM3, MRO, and our cadet saftey officer. He was a cadet flight sgt. I fully agree with him that he will not bee able to do anything like staff postions or do anymore ES ratings because of the demotion.  He was thinking about transfering squadrons. Now of course the demotion would stay and the squadron cc would be aware of the situation.  Any advice on this? How would you go about with this if you were the cadet?

[Spaceman3750]

First, how did he go all the way back to C/SrA? You can only demote up to 2 achievements IIRC, meaning he loses his C/MSgt stripe and his C/TSgt stripe, leaving him at C/SSgt.

Second, I don't see why if he continues to perform well and earns his grade back that he couldn't hold another staff position or continue to progress in ES - why should he be eternally [darn]ed for one screw up on Facebook?

Third, the regs state that you must be in good standing to transfer. While I believe that this primarily has to do with disciplinary action pending against you, I could easily see it extended to recently demoted as the cadet is essentially in a "probationary" phase where if he does not earn his grade back he may be terminated from membership.

[Eclipse]

Cadets can be dropped three clicks, or two clicks and an achievement (see below).

If the receiving CC is worth his badge, he will have a direct conversation with both the cadet and the current CC.

Odds are the answer will be "no thank you".  Good commanders do not normally allow members to run from issues like that unless
there is a clear violation of procedures, or he has other inside information we aren't privy to here.

Bottom line, if he did it, he should man person-up, accept it, and earn his stripes back.

This should not have any bearing on his ES quals, and little on potential staff positions once he is back in good standing.
It could actually be a wake-up call to his online behavior in general.

He's got 60 days to show he got the message, and 180 to show he's taken it to heart. Since all he was doing was
arguing on FB, my suggestion would be to terminate the FB account, or put it on hiatus until he is back to the grade level
he should be.  That and his ongoing behavior should be enough to show the CC he "get's it", or show himself he's more
interested in FB that CAP.

With that said, it must have been fairly egregious behavior to drop 3 clicks - that's pretty extreme.

CAPR 52-16
5-14. Demotions and Terminations. In exceptional circumstances, the unit commander may demote a CAP cadet for cause, up to a maximum of three steps in the Cadet Program (i.e.: three achievements, or two achievements and a milestone award).
a. Notification and Effective Date. The unit commander notifies the cadet of the demotion in writing, forwarding a courtesy copy to the commander at the next echelon. The demotion period begins the date the unit commander approves the demotion request if there is no appeal.
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
c. Appeals. The cadet may appeal the demotion decision by writing the commander of the next echelon, courtesy copied to the unit commander, within 30 days of receiving the demotion notice.
(1) The commander at the next echelon (normally at the group or wing level) will rule on the cadet's appeal request within 30 days of receiving the appeal request letter. This commander is the final authority on all cadet demotion actions.
(2) Cadets who appeal a demotion are ineligible to progress in the Cadet Program until the commander who has the appeals authority rules on the appeal. If the demotion is approved after an appeal, the cadet will be immediately demoted. If the demotion is overturned after an appeal, the cadet will be allowed to progress as if no demotion occurred.
(3) In evaluating an appeal, the commander reviews the facts of the situation, whether demotion was the appropriate punishment, and whether the demotion was carried out in accordance with this regulation.
d. Effect on Ribbons and Awards. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, just the achievements earned and any grade associated with these achievements. Demoted cadets retain their milestone awards, unless the awards are revoked as outlined in paragraph 5-15.

[Spaceman3750]

Thanks for the info Eclipse . I probably could have saved myself some embarrassment by looking it up first but oh well.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think 3 stripes for a FB argument is about as Harsh as it gets. Of course, we don't have the whole story.

[colkemp]

All it was that a fellow cadet called him gay and he cussed him out. I think a formal talking to would have been good. And the current squadron cc has something against this cadet. And i say this with my 47 years of life on this awesome plant. The cc denies this cadet everything. He ask for a simple msa pre req that he is qualifed for DENIED! Im using that as a actual example that has happened. Now every other senior memeber agrees that this is not fare. But no regs are being broken so we cant take it to the IG. So my only other thougt would be for this cadet to transfer. Could the current CC not let the cadet transfer?

[Eclipse]

Yes -  A commander may deny a transfer, and in this case it would probably be on the grounds of an open disciplinary action.

See 39-2:
1-11. Transfer of Membership.    Members may transfer from one unit to another as long as they are members in good
standing in their current unit of assignment.  Members may not transfer to preclude an adverse action or when placed in
suspended status.  Individuals who misrepresent their status in order to transfer may be subject to membership termination
action as outlined in CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination

With that said, if he really wants to move, and you anticipate it being blocked, that might open the doors to a review of the whole
situation.

a. A member who moves from one locality to another may transfer to another unit in the new community.  A member
may also transfer from one unit to another in the same locality upon approval of the unit commanders concerned. If approved
by one, but disapproved by the other, the request will be forwarded to the commander at the next higher echelon for decision. 
If disapproved by both unit commanders, the transfer will be denied

I would say unfair treatment, disciplinary action not fitting the situation, or bias against a cadet would be plenty of interest to an IG,
and if you and other senior members really feel this way, frankly it is incumbent upon you to say something.

[Camas]

Good commanders do not normally allow members to run from issues like that unless there is a clear violation of procedures, or he has other inside information we aren't privy to here. Bottom line, if he did it, he should man person-up, accept it, and earn his stripes back. This should not have any bearing on his ES quals, and little on potential staff positions once he is back in good standing.It could actually be a wake-up call to his online behavior in general. He's got 60 days to show he got the message, and 180 to show he's taken it to heart. Since all he was doing was arguing on FB, my suggestion would be to terminate the FB account, or put it on hiatus until he is back to the grade level he should be.  That and his ongoing behavior should be enough to show the CC he "get's it", or show himself he's more interested in FB than CAP. With that said, it must have been fairly egregious behavior to drop 3 clicks - that's pretty extreme.

I agree. You're giving the cadet what he wants if a transfer is allowed. He should remain with his current unit and set himself straight. And yes - the loss of three stripes is way too severe; the loss of one would be sufficient.

[lordmonar]

Well here's the situation.

If I were the loosing commander....I would not approve the transfer.  Period, end of story.

A.  The whole reason I demoted the cadet instead of 2b'ing him is because I want to see him grow and improve.
B.  I don't transfer my problems....and I don't let my problems transfer.

On the issue of the cadet with the problem.....what's the problem?  He keeps his nose clean for six months and he is right back in the saddle.  He should look at it as a chance to really, really study for his SMSgt test.

No reason why he can't contiune with ES, no reason why he can't be on staff (BTW...being the SAFETY NCO means he is on staff).
Tell him, he did his crime, now he needs to do his time.

[jimmydeanno]

Honestly, I see demotions as the step prior to processing a 2b for termination.  Taking stripes is typically embarrassing and shameful (meant to be), and I've seen that most cadets that demotion is executed on just causes them to leave CAP altogether.  There are certain instances, where you know the cadet is truly passionate about being a cadet that it can be an effective tool, but those situations are too few and far between to be "normal practice."

I've seen commanders demote cadets for silly reasons, and 2b for even sillier.  I don't think that demotions are used properly by most people using them.

[Ron1319]

I think he just should have appealed the demotion to the group commander.  The three stripe (4?) demotion action doesn't seem to be the appropriate response.  It would appear that either the cadet is really an ongoing problem, or the unit commander simply does not have a good relationship with him.  The situation is too complicated to resolve on Captalk, however.  The group commander or a good IG likely needs to get involved and an appeal to the demotion action would probably be the right way to get that started.