Clarification of Officer Rank Qualifications For "New" CAP

[JAFO78]

I though it best to start this as a new topic

Gentlemen, I applaud all of you for your hard work to bring CAP back into alignment with the Air Force as this should have happened long ago. But I do have questions as far as Officer Rank goes, ( I have been in CAP twice before, first time around I was a 1LT almost a Capt. 4 years in. I got married and CAP fell to the side. A few years later I rejoined and I again made 2LT, as I had to restart from the bottom. But family came first again I had to leave. I hope to rejoin again in a few months after a move to Florida.)

Now if all of this goes to plan, what happens to those of us that have no interest in flying? I very much would become a ground team member. I have real world job skills and training ramp flight operations or ground handling commercial jets. With at lest 6 years experience. I also have experience as a supervisor and Assistant Department Manager.

Now would any of that count towards becoming an officer or I am looking at being an "enlisted" member. I have been keeping up with CAP through CAPortal, and CAPtalk.
If it boils down to having to college I guess I would.

I have learned more in the last week, then at any point before. I eagerly await many replys to this.

Robert Goodman aka  Robg 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Rob:

None of this has gone beyond the talking stage yet.  Some of us, however, are going to prepare a paper to be circulated with ideas developed through R&D here on the net.  (R&D = Ripoff and Duplication).

Generally, the talk centers on creation of a more professional officer corps that can stand toe-to-toe and nose-to-nose with the USAF.  Mot of us feel that college should be the basic requirement, although there is discussion among us as to how much is enough.  Some want a BS/BA, others think an Associate would put you in the ballpark.  (I'm still undecided on this point.)

We all agree that some type of OTS is appropriate.  I'm working on putting one through here in FL that will be 3 months long.  Iowa is a full 6 months long.  (Month = 1 weekend). 

Where we have the most disagreement is how to handle highly qualified people who lack college, are not pilots, communications technicians, medical personnel, prior service, but are clearly not the kind of folks who should be considered "E-Nothings."  Should we expand the flight officer rank program?  Should we create an enlisted corps?  If we create an enlisted corps, how do we manage it and how do we promote?  Are Air Force rank insignia appropriate to use?  How will we differentiate between AF enlisted and NCO's and our CAP enlisted and NCO's, since enlisted will not have any epaulet, gray or otherwise?

Feel free, Rob, to jump in.  The water's fine.  You'll get splashed a few times, but that's part of the fun. 

[JAFO78]

Thanks Kack, I was hoping you would see this. Yes I understand what you are saying. Hey I would love more than anything to go to an OTS. I think it would be hard work and fun at the same time.

[DNall]

If I can echo Kach, we are in development at this stage & your input is valued as well. Let me tell you where we are at this point though...

We're ALSO talking about a transition plan of how to get from where we are to the new system. That tends to involve some sort of gradfathering, in that existing officers have to complete any item they're missing from the new system to keep their grade, or may be demoted to a lower officer grade. That would put 2Lts in OTS w/ new members to get started. 1Lts doing an officer basic course to convert the theory to practical leadership, etc on down the line. So, if you came back in (and you or NHQ has something to document you were 1Lt before - they prob do), they you'll be reinstated at 1Lt & maybe even can reclaim your time in grade (nice if you have a file or something in a closet somewhere). Then you'd transition w/ everyone else.

We haven't talked about what to do w/ returning officers after the transition is done, but I'd think either use the same transition rules or have them do OTS & then put them back at their former grade. That's a detail I hadn't considered yet.

Now the more generic... All the skills you described (GTM/L, Flt Line Sup, etc) would be performed by enlisted in the military. They are specialist operator skills. The good thing about that person is their expertise in a field, and THEN comes leadership skills to carry it out. An officer is a generalist - meaning not as expert at specific things but knows a little about a lot of related things - where they are leaders of people first & do-ers second. The way it should work is you have a specialty area in a shop w/ say three specialized fields, enlisted experts in each of those fields supervised by an NCO dept head that's an experienced expert who also has leadership skills, then an officer over it all that's basically qualified in all three areas. The officers job is to make sure each of the depts is running smoothly, the NCOs are doing their jobs, and otherwise to be a liaison to get requirements from the boss executed by the varrious depts... if it's all running smoothly & he doesn't have much to do, then it's appropriate for him to pitch in with the guys on the job.

Now, specifically, what we said was a BS is the requirement, easy to attain waivers for 60hrs/associates & special skills or experience (of which yours qualifies). I don't have anything against people that have not gone to college. Some of them are very smart, and some people that have gone are complete doofs. However, just requiring that 60hr mark will cut down the percentage of idiots. There's also some tradition to be looked at. Part of the reason college is required comes from George Washington taking over the Contentital Army & shaking up that officer corps, and on back before that for all time... in CAP terms, why does the corporate executive w/ an MBA down at Sq want to follow a region commander that's a truck driver? That sounds callous, but you know it causes big problems.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Please feel free to toss your views in & help us shape the concepts.

[JAFO78]

DNall,  Unfortunately I have no saved papers. Both my records were destroyed before I could get to them. I don't know what MN Wing has on file. My old squadron commander 1st time in, is at Wing HQ. Maybe a letter from him stating that I was his Deputy Commander, and then Squadron Commander after he moved up.

Not sure of the whereabouts of squadron commander from my second time in.

If I have to start at the bottom and work my way up so be it. I have no problem hitting the books and starting over. I think it makes a better person, and shows willingness to become an officer.

I will continue to read the postings and toss my quarter in from time to time.

[DNall]

A letter like that stating he remembers promoting you at the time, etc would be helpful. Not sure when you said you were in last, but email/call NHQ/DPR (the members services people) & aks if they can look & see what they have on you (name & SSN). If it's in the last what 5-7 years then they should have something. They'll print it out & mail it to you. One of those two route should be enough to take care of it.

I appreciate that you are willing to re-take courses, and that's great if you go that route to get updated to the newer material, especially in a specialty track & of course you have to redo CPPT & start from scratch on ES. However, there's more challenging stuff out there I'd rather see you spend your time on than repeatng the basics.

If it were just a matter of the grade or the training I wouldn't care. It'll take a few months to get you reinstated to 1Lt & by that time you might be eligible for 2Lt anyway. The point would be to shorten the time before you make Captain, which is sounds like you deserve at this point, and become eligible to take SOS. I wouldn't want you to spend 3-4 more years before you can do that. I'd rather see you get back up to date & build on your past experience to pick up pretty close to where you left off. Otherwise I worry you'll have a lot of dead time in there just waiting & won't feel like we need you as bad as we really do. Good luck though. I've been thru a similiar experience after taking a break, kind of in the back end of that process now actually. If you have questions or anything pleas feel free to drop me a msg. 

[BillB]

OK lets see where I would fall under your Rank Qualifications.
I hold a Masters degree and a B.A. and a B.S. and just finished an A.S. (different major)
Have completed Levels 1 thru 5 including AWC and NDU
Held a Cadet COP w/2clasps (roughly equal to Spaatz)
a command pilots rating (even if I don't renew a medical) a PPL with SEL, MEL and SES
Masters rating in PAO, Comm and CP
for ES all I have is GES even though I was MC for 21+ actual missions under old system

So where would someone like that fit into your rank (should be grade) qualifications??

[arajca]

OK lets see where I would fall under your Rank Qualifications.
I hold a Masters degree and a B.A. and a B.S. and just finished an A.S. (different major)
Have completed Levels 1 thru 5 including AWC and NDU
Held a Cadet COP w/2clasps (roughly equal to Spaatz)
a command pilots rating (even if I don't renew a medical) a PPL with SEL, MEL and SES
Masters rating in PAO, Comm and CP
for ES all I have is GES even though I was MC for 21+ actual missions under old system

So where would someone like that fit into your rank (should be grade) qualifications??

What command/staff positions have you served in?

[shorning]

So where would someone like that fit into your rank (should be grade) qualifications??

You could be a Master Corporal...

[fyrfitrmedic]

So where would someone like that fit into your rank (should be grade) qualifications??

You could be a Master Corporal...

... or Corporal Captain?

[RiverAux]

I think that 2Lt or 1Lt would be an appropriate rank for GTLs.  The size of the team is small enough that in most ground units it would be led by a Sgt. but there are various examples of other units of similar size being led by officers. 

[DNall]

OK lets see where I would fall under your Rank Qualifications.
I hold a Masters degree and a B.A. and a B.S. and just finished an A.S. (different major)
Have completed Levels 1 thru 5 including AWC and NDU
Held a Cadet COP w/2clasps (roughly equal to Spaatz)
a command pilots rating (even if I don't renew a medical) a PPL with SEL, MEL and SES
Masters rating in PAO, Comm and CP
for ES all I have is GES even though I was MC for 21+ actual missions under old system

So where would someone like that fit into your rank (should be grade) qualifications??

LtCol!!! You've already completed all the requirements plus some. Other LtCols who have not already done so would need to go back & take ACSC. Then would need to take AWC to be eligible for promotion to Col if they are selected to such a slot.

River,
Lt is appropriate for a platoon sized element or responsibility. Certainly officers could serve in that capacity over 4-6 people, and should do so while gaining experience before they move into multi-agency joint ICS command positions, but it can be filled just as well by an adult SrA or SSgt who's been around several years & is an expert in the field (SSgt being the equiv of Major now).

[Major Carrales]

Ya'll play with these senarios...

1) Five year squadron commander with no University study, currently has Captain's bars having completed LEVEL II.

2) 30 year member who is a Major or Lt Col

3) Certified teacher, BA in English, that has complete level IV and has bene a personnel officer for two years

What concessions would be made for those being grandfathered who have real, upwards of 5 or 10 years or experience in actually running CAP units or as staff officers?  What about those that have done so who began as a "man off the street?"

In theory a SPAATZ cadet, who as completed the CAP Cadet program should be a 2d Lt.

My word on this would be merely let everyone grandfathered keep the rank they are at but freeze them there until they back fill.  Stripping people's rank is a whole n'other issue issue than freezing it.

Devil's Advocacy...

Suppose no one want to take OTS or these other situations.  Lots of money is already spent by members merely trying to make their unit function.  Why attend these classes? 

Why not join the USAFR instead where one could be paid to do all that?

If everyone does all this, would a CAP officer really get any more resepect from USAF or USAFR or would it just be looked at as "baby-games?"

These are serious issue I present for discussion...

Have at it...

[JohnKachenmeister]

Joe, Dennis, Rob:

Joe, in answer to one of your first questions, IF you are qualified to join the US Air Force Reserve, Do it.  CAP is admittedly "Second line" troops, and have historically been so.  We understand that, and so does the Air Force.  You can do more for your country as an Air Reservist than you can as a CAP officer.

Dennis:  In normal military units, you would be correct in assuming that officers are managers and generalists, and NCO's would be the first-line supervisors, such as GTL's.  However, we're not normal.  In addition to the obvious manifestations of abnormality (working long hours without pay and fat guys wearing double-breasted uniforms) there are two other issues to consider:

1.  We can barely manage an officer development program.  Having to manage a parallel enlisted/NCO specialty track will ncrease the administrative burden, and in my opinion, be counterproductive to our overall goals.

2.  I know volunteer is a dirty word in some circles, but that's what we are.  We cannot pay people in coin of the realm, but we can allow them to earn titles that carry with them ego gratification and community recognition.  Even though my paycheck would be the same ($0.00), I LIKE being a major a lot more than I would like being a Master Sergeant.  And I was a Staff Sergeant (Army, E-6 type) when I was commissioned.  Some people thought I took a "Bust" to being a 2LT, but I liked earning officer rank.

While you guys were posting, I sat out by my pool with my dog and thought this over for a while.  I think I've come up with a fair system that improves officer quality, gives the "Ego strokes" that the volunteers desire, and is simple to administer.

[RiverAux]

River,
Lt is appropriate for a platoon sized element or responsibility. Certainly officers could serve in that capacity over 4-6 people, and should do so while gaining experience before they move into multi-agency joint ICS command positions, but it can be filled just as well by an adult SrA or SSgt who's been around several years & is an expert in the field (SSgt being the equiv of Major now).

I agree that it could go either way, but as I pointed out in the "infantry" thread we are actually in much more dire need of experienced ground team personnel than we are of pilots and if a little perk of being a Lt. is all that it might take to bring someone like this over the edge into CAP, its a small price to pay.

Keep in mind that the Sgts leading squads in infantry platoons are generally pretty closely supervised by an officer who is their platoon leader.  Our ground teams almost always operate independently of such direct supervision so a lot of judgement is necessary to lead those teams. 

[BillB]

ARAJCA
Command of three different squadrons (total 8 years)
Group Commander, 2 years

Now does that mean I qualify for MSgt?

[Major Carrales]

Joe, in answer to one of your first questions, IF you are qualified to join the US Air Force Reserve, Do it.  CAP is admittedly "Second line" troops, and have historically been so.  We understand that, and so does the Air Force.  You can do more for your country as an Air Reservist than you can as a CAP officer.

John,
My point would be that CAP is what it is and accomplishes all that it does using "citizen airmen" what give of their time, resources and personal money.  It is done, at least by be, like a vocation.

I do my best not to make CAP what it is not.  I work to make CAP a household word in my section of the country because I beleive in it.

It seems like the pecking order is clear...

The USAF- The best Air Force the world has ever produced on the cutting edge of technology in the field of Air and Space.  

The USAFR- Men and Women who desire to service in the USAF and do so in conjunction with their civilian lives.  Are ready to be called up to active service on a moment's notice.

Air National Guard- Part of the milita system of the US as per the Second Amendment, I would call them "Jefferson's Air Force" since Jeffersonian visions of national defense are based on a small National Force and an extensive militia.  Persons who seek to serve the Air Force in more local/ state capacity.  Will and can be deployed to combat if called upon.

Civil Air Patrol- Civilain Auxiliary of the USAF.  Conducts what amounts to Civil Defense, SAR, Emergency Services, a youth program and non-combat missions for the USAF.  Serve with no pay.  Maintain the world's largest civilian air force (to which Howard Hughes once had the title) and uses member owned aircraft.

SDF Air Branches- Normally serve with no pay in the service of their state.

That is how I view it.  If one wants to dedicate weekends to advanced training to hold CAP RANK...I submit they should rather going the Air Guard or Reserve.  For a group who meet one a week, take off of work (sometimes a week or more) to attend SARex, provide lots of member owned uniforms/equipment and serve without pay...the money to attend extra courses to do the exact same job they currently do seem to be a bit wasteful.

Now if CAP were to change to do more I could see making that expense...however, the some 1000 to 2000 dollars spent in traveling countless miles to take OTS (especially in Large states where it would all be done in Dallas or Houston) would better be spent on member owned equipment and the local unit.

That is my opinion, of course.  Should any of that be mandated, you will see me there among the others.

Semper Vigilans!!!!

[JohnKachenmeister]

KACK'S PLAN:

I.  Commissioned Officer Grades.  

    A.  BA/BS degree for initial entry into commissioned officer grade.
    B.  Appear before an officer selection board at wing
         1.  Board interviews applicant and verifies presented credentials.
         2.  Board MAY waiver education, and accept to commissioned rank if:
              a.  Applicant has a minimum of 2 years of college toward a BS/BA.
              b.  Applicant has an associate degree.
              c.  Applicant has completed & can document 6 full months of full-time
                  technical training.  (1,043 clock hours)
              d.  Applicant is a pilot with an FAA rating of Private or higher.
              e.  Board appearance is waivered for former cadets who are fully qualified
                   for entry into the commission program.
         3.  Board may accept applicant, reject applicant, or assign applicant to the
              Flight Officer program.
         4.  Board may award advanced rank based on CFI qualifications, but no
              higher than Captain, and then only after completion of OTS.
         5.  Applicants for commissions based on professions (doctor, lawyer,
              chaplain, nurse) will be boarded by wing officer in that field.
    C.  Officers selected will be ranked as "Officer Candidate" and attend OTS
    D.  Uniform for OC will be an officer uniform without grade insignia on epaulet.
    E.  Rank will be awarded upon completion of OTS. (No time-in-grade as OC)
    F.  OTS will include SLS.
    G.  Promotion to 1LT in 1 year.  Completion of AFIADL 13 required, or equivalent.
    H.  Promotion to Capt after 3 years TIG, CLC or UCC required
    I.   Promotion to Maj. after 3 years as Capt., CLC required.  BA/BS also required
         for promotion to major.
    J.   Promotion to LTC after 4 years TIG as Major, RSC or equivalent required.
    K.  Promotion to COL requires NSC or equivalent and assignment.  No TIG
         requirement.

II.  Flight Officers
    A.  High School or equivalency required.
    B.  Appearance at a wing board required.
         a.  Appearance waivered for former cadets with Mitchell or higher.
         b.  If the applicant was assigned to FO program after application for the
              commissioned program, no new appearance is required.
    C.  F/O's attend same OTS as commissioned candidates, and wear the same
         officer uniform without rank.
    D.  Rank of Flight Officer awarded at completion of OTS, No TIC as OC.
    E.  Technical Flight Officer after 1 year as FO, and completion of AFIADL 13 or
         the equivalent.
    F.  Senior Flight Officer, 3 years TIG as TFO, and completion of CLC or UCC
    G.  Chief Flight Officer, 4 years TIG as SFO, and completion of CLC.
    H.  Master Flight Officer, 4 years as CFO, completion of RSC or equivalent.
    I.   Flight Officers cannot command chartered units, but can command flights.
    J.   Technical Flight Officers and higher can command squadrons and chartered
          flights.
    K.  FO program participants can be promoted to commissioned grade upon
         award of bachelor degree.  Rank will be determined based on CAP training
         level.  In  other words, an MFO who earns a degree would be promoted
         to major.

III. Non-Commissioned Officers
    A.  CAP non-commissioned officers will be limited to those who served as NCO's
         in the US military.
    B.  NCO's can wear the AF rank device equivalent to their NCO service.
    C.  NCO's must understand that they will not be promoted.  There is no NCO
         promotion system in CAP.  Advancement would be only through entry into
         one of the above two officer programs.
    D.  NCO's cannot command units.

IV.  Enlisted Grades.
    A.  No minimum education requirement.
    B.  Selection and training at the local unit only.
    C.  Initial appointment to Airman Basic.
    D.  Promotion to Airman in 6 months.
    E.  Promotion to next grade after 1 year TIG, up to maximum grade of SrAirman.
    F.  Rank device will be Air Force chevrons, with the CAP 3-blade prop and
         triangle in center in lieu of star.
    G.  May not exercise leadership or command, except supervision of cadets.
    H.  May serve in specialties at technician level, including ES specialties.

[RiverAux]

So, NCOs are stuck at whatever they were in the military.  I just don't understand that.  Why can't they have a chance to get promoted within the NCO ranks? 

This is just way too complicated.  I see no utility in having something over 20 different potential ranks.  If you're going to require a BS to be an officer, just keep it simple and put everyone else in standard AF enlisted ranks to keep it as simple as possible.  Let them promote through NCO ranks similar to having the flight officers. 

[ZigZag911]

Thanks Kack, I was hoping you would see this. Yes I understand what you are saying. Hey I would love more than anything to go to an OTS. I think it would be hard work and fun at the same time.

The plan I posted elsewhere on this board (I think on the "Paper: Structural Change" thread) does not require a college degree to earn officer grades....the system I envisoion relies completely on CAP training and experience......it would take a bit longer than those with professional degrees or mission skills....but then again, it is designed to take the same time for a college grad LACKING any relevant background.