Corporate uniform and saluting

[NHAV8R]

Hi, I was wearing my white shirt corporate uniform and a cadet saluted me. I am not wearing a cover so I was wondering what the right procedure is? 

[SARDOC]

Return the Salute.  Thanks

[Eclipse]

You return the salute.

Our courtesies are based on grade and membership status (senior vs. cadet), not which uniform we're wearing.

Cadets should be saluting seniors in the golf shirt combo.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

The gray and whites are a military style uniform. Return (or initiate) a salute when appropriate.

[HGjunkie]

Cadets should be saluting seniors in the golf shirt combo.

IIRC, Shouldn't they also salute if they're in civvies?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is never improper to salute, nor to return one.

About 15 years ago I was working an airshow as a First Lieutenant and an AFRES First Lieutenant whom I'd never met before saluted me.

I was a little perplexed and said "you don't have to salute me LT, and plus we're the same rank."  He said, "I know, but you're a fellow officer and I wanted to recognise that."  I thanked him and returned his salute.

In civvies...if a cadet salutes me I don't return the salute but I acknowledge and say something like "as you were," "carry on," etc.

I didn't think C&C's were required for the G/W...which is why some members wear it...it would be a lot better if there were authorised headgear (besides the baseball cap) for it.  I feel odd saluting outside without headgear.

[Eclipse]

In certain circumstances, yes (i.e. on the bus to NCC, yes.  At the 7-11, no.)

Per CAPP 151
Rules for Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.
(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers and military wing or base commanders).
(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if they desire.

The CSU was officially designated as a military-style uniform by NHQ, so salutes are required for anyone in that combo. 

IMHO, anyone who would pick their uniform based on whether they have to salute needs an attitude adjustment. Saluting is part of the fun and
part of the culture of any paramilitary organization.

The expectation of being saluted is probably misguided ego, but the disdain for the tradition, or actively not saluting shows poor training and
a fundamental lack of understanding of the custom.

[jimmydeanno]

Per obsoleteCAPP 151.[/i]

THE SALUTE
Key Principle
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.

Finer Points
• Salutes are normally exchanged only outdoors. Indoors, salute officers only when formally reporting (ie: when called forward to receive an award).
• The junior person initiates the salute a fair distance from the senior person such that the senior has time to return the salute.
• Offer a greeting such as, "Good morning, ma'am," when exchanging salutes.
• When in formation, do not salute unless commanded to present arms. The commander salutes for the unit if an officer approaches.
•When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.
• On some installations, such as Maxwell AFB, home of CAP National Headquarters, it is common to see military officers from friendly nations. It is customary for CAP members to salute these international officers as a sign of goodwill.
• When in doubt, salute. Anyone may render a salute at any time if they believe one is warranted.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CSU was officially designated as a military-style uniform by NHQ, so salutes are required for anyone in that combo.

I know.  Maybe that's one reason it's being shot down.

IMHO, anyone who would pick their uniform based on whether they have to salute needs an attitude adjustment. Saluting is part of the fun and part of the culture of any paramilitary organization.

Agreed, agreed.  But there are people in CAP who really don't like C&C's, who just want to fly, operate radios, fly, do GT, fly, operate a mission base, fly, be an IC...and fly.  I've known them, and they tend to gravitate toward non-AF type uniforms in my experience.

I've had CAP officers senior in grade to me in the G/W look at me like I'm from another planet (well, that's another issue... ) when I salute them.

In the polo shirt, unless I know them, it's impossible to tell their grade.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

• On some installations, such as Maxwell AFB, home of CAP National Headquarters, it is common to see military officers from friendly nations. It is customary for CAP members to salute these international officers as a sign of goodwill.

I saluted a Canadian Captain (T-33 pilot) at an airshow years ago...he looked a little perplexed at first but then returned it.

My former Squadron CC, who spent a lot of time at Maxwell, once told me, "I've seen Brits, Aussies, Germans, Dutch, Canadians, French, you name it, at Maxwell and I always salute them...I might be saluting a Corporal but at least I'm rendering proper courtesy."

[Eclipse]

Per obsoleteCAPP 151.[/i]

THE SALUTE
Key Principle
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.
Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.

Finer Points
• Salutes are normally exchanged only outdoors. Indoors, salute officers only when formally reporting (ie: when called forward to receive an award).
• The junior person initiates the salute a fair distance from the senior person such that the senior has time to return the salute.
• Offer a greeting such as, "Good morning, ma'am," when exchanging salutes.
• When in formation, do not salute unless commanded to present arms. The commander salutes for the unit if an officer approaches.
•When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.
• On some installations, such as Maxwell AFB, home of CAP National Headquarters, it is common to see military officers from friendly nations. It is customary for CAP members to salute these international officers as a sign of goodwill.
• When in doubt, salute. Anyone may render a salute at any time if they believe one is warranted.

Good catch, and this is better. 

Note it now says "in uniform", the military uniform is no longer and issue, and also indicates a uniform is not always even required.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You return the salute.

Our courtesies are based on grade and membership status (senior vs. cadet), not which uniform we're wearing.

Cadets should be saluting seniors in the golf shirt combo.

I was under the impression that the Golf Shirt got a verbal acknowledgement.

[lordmonar]

You return the salute.

Our courtesies are based on grade and membership status (senior vs. cadet), not which uniform we're wearing.

Cadets should be saluting seniors in the golf shirt combo.

I was under the impression that the Golf Shirt got a verbal acknowledgement.

Polos do not have rank on them.....so no salutes required.

Not all SM's are officers and therefore do not rate salutes.

[jimmydeanno]

You return the salute.

Our courtesies are based on grade and membership status (senior vs. cadet), not which uniform we're wearing.

Cadets should be saluting seniors in the golf shirt combo.

I was under the impression that the Golf Shirt got a verbal acknowledgement.

Polos do not have rank on them.....so no salutes required.

Not all SM's are officers and therefore do not rate salutes.

Holy Bovine!  Could we please read:

•When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

[lordmonar]

If there is no rank....then I can't recognise them as officers....can I?

[peter rabbit]

The gray and whites are a military style uniform. Return (or initiate) a salute when appropriate.

I agree with Cyborg - always return a salute and when in doubt, salute.

According to several sources, the gray/white is considered a CAP distinctive uniform and not a military style uniform. Playing of the National Anthem and performing the pledge of Allegiance should be with hand over heart just like the polo shirt.

Anyone have something different?

[jimmydeanno]

If there is no rank....then I can't recognise them as officers....can I?

You don't know who the senior members are in your squadron?  When you were on Active Duty, you didn't know who your squadron commander was if he wasn't wearing his uniform?

People can play dumb all day, but the number of transient senior members at a local squadron are pretty low to non-existant, pulling the "I didn't know they were an officer" card is going to be pretty hard.

[lordmonar]

I did not salute my commander if he was not in uniform when I was on AD.

Not all senior members rate salutes....no matter what uniform they are wearing.....see SMWOG and CAP NCOs.

Sorry....not playing dumb....just ignoring a stupidly worded interpetaiton of an military tradition.......i.e. it was okay to salute YOUR commander if he was not in uniform....but not required.

[jimmydeanno]

I did not salute my commander if he was not in uniform when I was on AD.

Not all senior members rate salutes....no matter what uniform they are wearing.....see SMWOG and CAP NCOs.

Sorry....not playing dumb....just ignoring a stupidly worded interpetaiton of an military tradition.......i.e. it was okay to salute YOUR commander if he was not in uniform....but not required.

How is it poorly worded?

If you're uniformed...

Salute Officers (excludes your SMWOGs and NCOs)

Upon Recognition (If you know who they are and they're an officer)

Regardless of what uniform they're wearing (clothes don't change what they are)

Seems pretty straight forward to me.  There isn't any confusion as to whether or not grade insignia are displayed, or different rules based on different uniforms, etc.  It's an easy to follow policy.

[SARDOC]

^typically WIWOAD If the Squadron Commander was in civvies it was typically just the verbal greeting.

[sneakers]

I salute a sm even when they are wearing a polo, seeing how that is somewhat similar to the corporate uniform in that they are both CAP-distinctive uniforms. However, if a sm is in civvies, just a verbal greeting is appropriate.

[Eclipse]

According to several sources, the gray/white is considered a CAP distinctive uniform and not a military style uniform. Playing of the National Anthem and performing the pledge of Allegiance should be with hand over heart just like the polo shirt.

Anyone have something different?

We're not talking about the flag code, we're talking about internal CAP regs and policies regarding saluting.
All uniforms are equal internally.

[jimmydeanno]

Holy cow, for a group of people that love to throw regs around how is there so much interpretation of what we're supposed to do?  It's pretty straightforward, black and white - which is what I thought CT was all about.

There isn't anything to discuss.  CAPP 151 tells us exactly what is appropriate.  It says that it doesn't matter what the officer is wearing.  If you are uniformed and recognize them as an officer, salute.  Not "if civies then only verbal greeting" or "if before 10am on every other Tuesday".

Is this another case of people learning something one way and refusing to change to the CAP way because "The RM does it this way"?

Adding all these amendments only serves to confuse people new to CAP, our cadets, and makes C&C difficult, when in reality they should be easy and natural.

[Eclipse]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

People who show a disdain for saluting, or who makes excuse and find loopholes are generally not very good overall players.
Just because you have the technical skill to do "something", does not mean your behavior and attitude are not a detriment to
the mission overall.

[MIKE]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

Do you need me to quote the regulation that says they aren't, cause I will.

[Eclipse]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

Do you need me to quote the regulation that says they aren't, cause I will.

Is it relevant, really?

For the most part CAP hasn't adhered to the regulations regarding regulations for more than a decade.  Manuals as regs, ICLs that don't expire,
the majority of documents and a lot of materials so out of date as to be irrelevant or even detrimental when used, and of course board and council actions and comments treated as the writ of law even though they are never published and are ambiguous at best.  The list is pretty long.

Its a mess, and people lean on nonsense like the difference between a "p" and an "r" as an excuse, not valid justification for behavior or action.

[SARDOC]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

Do you need me to quote the regulation that says they aren't, cause I will.

Is it relevant, really?

For the most part CAP hasn't adhered to the regulations regarding regulations for more than a decade.  Manuals as regs, ICLs that don't expire,
the majority of documents and a lot of materials so out of date as to be irrelevant or even detrimental when used, and of course board and council actions and comments treated as the writ of law even though they are never published and are ambiguous at best.  The list is pretty long.

Its a mess, and people lean on nonsense like the difference between a "p" and an "r" as an excuse, not valid justification for behavior or action.

Well you are the one who brought it up   

This sounds like the symptoms of a bigger problem.  Leadership should ensure that the documents are done correctly and updated as appropriate.  With Technology the way it is today, there is absolutely no reason why it should take this long to update regulations.

There is a difference between "p" and "r" for a reason.  There is an order of Hierarchy among these documents. As a Civil Air Patrol member I am obligated to follow the CAP Constitution, Bylaws and regulations where the Pamphlets are meant to be nondirective informational guidelines.

[Persona non grata]

Regardless of what the person is wearing If thier grade or postion is higher than mine I salute and carry on.  BINTD I saluted GO's who were in civies.

[bosshawk]

I seem to remember a change in Federal law which allows the rendering of the hand salute during the National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance by anyone who has served in the Armed Forces, regardless of the attire of the veteran.  I can't quote chapter and verse, so please don't ask for it.

It seems to me that there is too much emphasis in this blog on strictest interpretation of the rules.  If a salute is indicated, render it and move on.  As some have stated, a salute is a greeting, not an example of a subordinate rendering honors to a superior, although it can indicate that.

It seem to me that I rendered my first hand salute in 1947, so I have done a lot of them.

[Eclipse]

I seem to remember a change in Federal law which allows the rendering of the hand salute during the National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance by anyone who has served in the Armed Forces, regardless of the attire of the veteran.  I can't quote chapter and verse, so please don't ask for it.

That is correct, back in 2009 the Flag Code was amended to allow veterans of the armed forces to salute the flag during hoisting and the anthem.

[Slim]

Here's what else CAPP 151 has to say on the subject, on page 3:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

Which takes me back to "Salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what they're wearing".  Which-to me-covers the polo and blazer combo.  True, the polo doesn't have any rank displayed, but chances are that you know the person, and whether they outrank you or not.  If they do, and you don't render courtesies, you can politely explain that you couldn't tell if they outranked you or not.  The blazer is a bit different.  You can recognize the wearer's grade, just by looking at the nameplate.

[ZigZag911]

Several years ago I was teaching a summer evening course (really late spring) at a local college. Stepped outside during a  break about 7:00 PM, discovered a local high school had rented college auditorium for graduation. People milling about, taking pictures, and so forth.

I was group CC at the time, and we had inspected local squadron a couple of weeks earlier.

So I'm standing there thinking about the next part of my lecture (in civvies, of course) when a youngster no more than 13 years old (also in civvies) pops to attention, renders a parade ground worthy salute, and pipes up "Good evening, Colonel" at the top of his admittedly still high-pitched voice!

Now, I could have given him a lecture on time, place, circumstances...but, a salute is, after all, a greeting...so I returned the salute, chatted for a minute, told him to go enjoy his sister's graduation celebration, and sent him off feeling happy and fulfilled!

[Eclipse]

and sent him off feeling happy and fulfilled!

Let all of you who avoid, disdain, or otherwise downplay our customs and courtesies read and heed the impact it has on others when you
choose to ignore or denigrate their efforts at showing respect for you and the organization.

Even if it is somehow "too much trouble for you", it may be important to others, and your attitude may have a more far-reaching impact
than the 15 seconds of your "inconvenience".

[a2capt]

[Perez]

The above is genius!

[CT074CC]

I really love it Eclipse!

When I was a cadet some time ago, it was and still remains that if you recognize someone as an officer, regardless of their attire, you are to render a proper salute.

Has this changed in the past five years?

Going a step further, how can we expect our cadets to render proper C&C with the right attitude and philosophy if we ourselves are unwilling to?

[Dracosbane]

In my squadron, the SMs are a small group who generally understand C&C, but aren't all that concerned when it comes to saluting amongst ourselves.  Most of the time that's because several of us are all the same rank, and because we're all long time friends.  We do show proper saluting on occasion when specifically around cadets.

Case in point:  My cadets were training a new cadet on the use of the guidon.  After the instruction and D&C, they were taking a couple of minutes to prepare for the next task and I was holding the guidon.  Our highest ranking member walked by as I was talking to the new cadet, so I snapped to, and rendered the proper salute.  He wasn't wearing his cover, not sure why, but he acknowledged the salute and went on.  Normally, I probably wouldn't have worried about it, but I specifically wanted to show the cadet A) the proper salute with a guidon and B) that we still do respect and greet each other accordingly, even if we don't do it all the time.