Special initial appointments for those with infantry skills

[DNall]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

Well, I subjectively share that one with ya. I really think we need to knock down a lot of that stuff. If you need to bribe someone in the door, then you don't need that kind of member. You also don't need to stomp on the people who put in years of hard work moving thru thaose grades. When a doctor comes in the military they make them a Captain. That's for two reasons: first, to place them in command over nurses/med staff; & second, because they've decided the respect/authority associated w/ Capt is what's required to get people to listen to you as a doctor - hell if I know what the formula is. You see though how that's the same kind of system we use for certain staff positions get full Colonel? They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic. It's not about getting people in the door or that their outside skill makes them this or that. I think we probably all bring something special to CAP in our own way.

So no joy for ground punders. Not unless you want to make self-employed/retired a skill that warrants advanced promotion cause they have time to give. It's already way far out of hand & needs reeling in.

[flyguy06]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

Well, I subjectively share that one with ya. I really think we need to knock down a lot of that stuff. If you need to bribe someone in the door, then you don't need that kind of member. You also don't need to stomp on the people who put in years of hard work moving thru thaose grades. When a doctor comes in the military they make them a Captain. That's for two reasons: first, to place them in command over nurses/med staff; & second, because they've decided the respect/authority associated w/ Capt is what's required to get people to listen to you as a doctor - hell if I know what the formula is. You see though how that's the same kind of system we use for certain staff positions get full Colonel? They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic. It's not about getting people in the door or that their outside skill makes them this or that. I think we probably all bring something special to CAP in our own way.

So no joy for ground punders. Not unless you want to make self-employed/retired a skill that warrants advanced promotion cause they have time to give. It's already way far out of hand & needs reeling in.

DNALL<

Military Doctors do NOT command Nurses. You have Nurses that are MAJ's and Lt COL's. Dr's are forbidden from command. You have Medical Services Officers that do that. Dr's just doctor.

[Eclipse]

They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic.

The fallacy with that proposal is that anyone would respect a Col, or even listen to them, just because of the birds.

A Wing SE has a number of levels of "go-no go" authority based on the SE position, and zero anywhere else, as does anyone who doesn't have the word "Commander" on the their business card.

They can suggest, they can ask, and in certain situations, generally mission scenarios or CPPT areas, can bring things to a halt, but beyond that, and without the Wing CC's signature, they are simply staffers with no command authority.  So bumping them all the way to a star would have little meaning.

I personally will not grant anyone advanced promotion unless they have completed AFIDL-13, or OCS/NCOA.  This will insure that they are either versed in CAP culture, or have enough military background to understand "The Way" and catch up.  It also is a quick indicator if they are actually interested in the PROGRAM or the GRADE.

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

And what's the point anyway? In addition to legal command authority, officers get paid commensurate with their grade AND generally get responsibility (on some level whether its command, or responsible for a $30m airplane, or responsible for someone's life, etc.).  They earned the grade, and continue to do so as they serve.

Not so in CAP.  We have so many "Senior Captains" in its not funny.  Guys with railroad tracks for 13+ years.

You get your grade, with no inkling you have to even show up to meetings, and no responsibility at all.  There's no extra money in it, so why do people care?  In fact, for most of them it was CRITICAL to get the initial bump, but then they don't care enough about grade from there to bother to catch up their PD to move forward. Lazy all the way. 

In many cases these guys are the core of CAP's problems - "zipper-bag wearing sun-gods" who think their poop doesn't stink and don't have time to be bothered with trivialities like regs and procedures.  They only know enough about the program to be able to fly cheap, never attend missions, and pontificate for hours about AOPA, Silver Wings, etc., but couldn't fill out a 104 to save their (or someone else's) lives.

And many of us who did actually bust our asses for the silly bling DO resent those who are bumped ahead of us and then don't contribute.  I admit to human frailties!

There's no money in it, no command authority, and in many cases special appointments just bring resentment, especially if the new officer thinks he's going to run things.

So what's the point?

[dmac]

For those who say doctors cannot command, check the following link:

http://www.bragg.army.mil/www-44md/commander_bio.htm

That is for the commander of the 44th Medical Command, a part of the 18th Airborne Corps at Ft. Bragg NC. When I joined the National Guard in 1982, I was in a Med CO in a Support BN and my first commander was an MD and the second was a DDS. Doctors and nurses can command medical units and routinely do so. Lawyers can command as well but they command legal agencies within the military, not line units.  A former Nebraska wing commander was also a CAP legal officer. Chaplains are forbidden to command.

The proposal for Wing Safety Officers was for the grade of Major with 2 years in the position and completion of Level II, not Colonel.

Capt Williams, it would seem that as you are exercising your right as a commander as far as promotions, it would also seem if it is a squadron policy, it would be in contravention to the promotion regulation, setting additional requirements as these individuals are not required by the regulation to make.

From CAPR 35-5

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

There is no requirement for lawyers, doctors, chaplains, educators, and accountants to take AFIADL-13 at anytime during their time in Civil Air Patrol for promotion. I am not saying they shouldn't take it. I think they should but it isn't a requirement unless these individuals choose to pursue the Officer Training Awards.

Just my 2 cents worth

Darrell R. McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
Inspector General, NEWG

[Eclipse]

Put that way, its hard to argue, and I am one of the first to complain about things like NYWG's old policies, etc.

I'll have to rethink this - I thought I was doing a good thing with this, and got a fair amount of support internally and from other unit commanders.

Its never come up as an issue other than the discussion of it at various times.

I am likely on thin ice, specifically saying "you must jump through hoop "X", but...

With regards to special appointments

e. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

f. Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

So there's also no requirement that I submit a special appointment promotion, either (though that is walking the same street, too).  As in "...you're the 28th CFI I have and you have no intentions of doing instruction, or you're a Dr. not interested in being a medical officer..."

Section "e", to me, says you have to do more than just pay your initial fee and complete level I, you have to actually DO something to merit the bump.

There has been some talk about knocking people back down a grade for not performing the thing they were brought in for.  And the whole idea of advanced grade falls on its face when you get to the teachers, lawyers, and accounts. 

You're going to tell me a teacher with a masters in art history, or a CPA, deserves Captain more than a Ranger?

At the end of the day, how I apply #f above is very subjective, and the sole "sanity valve" to this.

Then you have to ask the question; "Is a new member, who is so focused on getting meaningless grade based on outside skills, that he would file a complaint with an upper echelon the kind of people we want in CAP?"

Which would have more weight?  My discretion as a CC or his request for promotion?

It’s a tough one.  But IMHO this CFI=Capt nonsense has caused us more trouble than most are worth.

So you follow the program, and wind up with a bunch of Senior Captains who don't know the program and don't intend to learn it, or you raise the bar and break regs…

[Hotel 179]

Which would have more weight?  My discretion as a CC or his request for promotion?

Since the reg says that the commander "may" then that is different from "shall"....also, you have already mentioned that the person must be doing the job that warranted the special promotion.

I am also one of the folks that could fit into a several slots as I am a professional educator with an Educational Specialist Degree and 18 years experience, a mission rated pilot, and have been in a command slot for 2 years....pick your promotion, except that I am not serving as an Aerospace Education Officer.  That would be like asking the postman to take a walk.

Happy New Year....

[dmac]

I actually agree with you about the part of just paying the fee and getting promoted, and not participating, the only part I was talking about was the requiring of AFIADL-13 for an initial appointment. CFI's and other mission related skill appointment personnel still must meet the requirements for duty performance promotions after initial appointments. Substandard or no performance shouldn't be rewarded but to arbitrarily add requirements smacks of the infamous NYWG promotion reg. That's all I was addressing and your intentions are very admirable. You can still deny recommendations without adding requirements. If someone doesn't know much about CAP, fix that problem. I have seen active duty Lt Cols denied promotion to Lt Col in CAP because of their lack of knowledge, it is still a commander's prerogative to disapprove promotions for persons that are not performing up to standard. Individuals denied promotion should be counseled as to why the promotion is being denied and what it will take to rectify the situation. If individuals aren't performing their duties in a satisfactory manner, you as the commander can make that call.

As far as intial appointments for an educator versus say an Army Ranger, there are provisions that a commander can recommend individuals for advanced appointments based on skills that may be beneficial to CAP. There was no intention to say that an educator is more worthy of advanced grade than anyone else, just a recognition of their skills that could contribute to our aerospace education mission. Before the provision for senior NCOs being allowed advanced grade, I have seen recommendations for these special promotions in recognition of their unique skills(not just rangers).

Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

[sandman]

They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic.

The fallacy with that proposal is that anyone would respect a Col, or even listen to them, just because of the birds.

A Wing SE has a number of levels of "go-no go" authority based on the SE position, and zero anywhere else, as does anyone who doesn't have the word "Commander" on the their business card.

They can suggest, they can ask, and in certain situations, generally mission scenarios or CPPT areas, can bring things to a halt, but beyond that, and without the Wing CC's signature, they are simply staffers with no command authority.  So bumping them all the way to a star would have little meaning.

I personally will not grant anyone advanced promotion unless they have completed AFIDL-13, or OCS/NCOA.  This will insure that they are either versed in CAP culture, or have enough military background to understand "The Way" and catch up.  It also is a quick indicator if they are actually interested in the PROGRAM or the GRADE.

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

And what's the point anyway? In addition to legal command authority, officers get paid commensurate with their grade AND generally get responsibility (on some level whether its command, or responsible for a $30m airplane, or responsible for someone's life, etc.).  They earned the grade, and continue to do so as they serve.

Not so in CAP.  We have so many "Senior Captains" in its not funny.  Guys with railroad tracks for 13+ years.

You get your grade, with no inkling you have to even show up to meetings, and no responsibility at all.  There's no extra money in it, so why do people care?  In fact, for most of them it was CRITICAL to get the initial bump, but then they don't care enough about grade from there to bother to catch up their PD to move forward. Lazy all the way. 

In many cases these guys are the core of CAP's problems - "zipper-bag wearing sun-gods" who think their poop doesn't stink and don't have time to be bothered with trivialities like regs and procedures.  They only know enough about the program to be able to fly cheap, never attend missions, and pontificate for hours about AOPA, Silver Wings, etc., but couldn't fill out a 104 to save their (or someone else's) lives.

And many of us who did actually bust our asses for the silly bling DO resent those who are bumped ahead of us and then don't contribute.  I admit to human frailties!

There's no money in it, no command authority, and in many cases special appointments just bring resentment, especially if the new officer thinks he's going to run things.

So what's the point?

I feel I need to take you to task on this one too...

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

You are not the military...why would you insist on treating your people so bad? (let me talk to them...I'll have them go over your head too if you like )

[BlackKnight]

This whole concept of special promotions assumes that everyone is following the rules as written.  Frequently they don't.  I've seen new members walk in the door and immediately slap on Captain's bars- no paperwork required, no questions asked.  Maybe they had Army or NG experience, maybe not.  The argument was successfully made that they needed "field promotion" to accomplish their squadron level duty assignment. I've seen the Aerospace Education - Educator loophole abused and twisted beyond recognition, with members who couldn't begin to tell you the difference between yaw and pitch given an AE instructor duty assignment so they could qualify for instant promotion to Captain or Major. And I've seen doctors promoted from Captain all the way up to LtCol simply by paying their national dues every year and never attending a single CAP meeting or activity. 

We can discuss these proposals all day long but it really doesn't matter- IMO the current special promotion system is completely broken.  It's a wonder the other services have any respect at all for our grade structure.  I've heard the phrase "Silly Air Patrol" far too often in this regard.

And I agree 100% with Lordmonar-  In a ground team emergency I'd pick an Eagle Scout almost every time over an average cadet officer (even a Spaatzen) because most Eagle scouts have thoroughly mastered 90% of the GTM skill set. The exceptions being familiarization with our communications protocols, the Incident Command Structure, and the legal aspects of CAPR 60-3.  Of course we never get to test this concept because unlike other ES or Prof. Dev. areas, CAP permits no credit for prior skills in the GTM/UDF realm.  So even if you're Daniel Boone or Buffalo Bill reincarnated we're still required to train you on how to read a compass before you can be trusted to ride around with the rest of the ground team in a CAP van.

[arajca]

And I agree 100% with Lordmonar-  In a ground team emergency I'd pick an Eagle Scout almost every time over an average cadet officer (even a Spaatzen) because most Eagle scouts have thoroughly mastered 90% of the GTM skill set. The exceptions being familiarization with our communications protocols, the Incident Command Structure, and the legal aspects of CAPR 60-3.  Of course we never get to test this concept because unlike other ES or Prof. Dev. areas, CAP permits no credit for prior skills in the GTM/UDF realm.  So even if you're Daniel Boone or Buffalo Bill reincarnated we're still required to train you on how to read a compass before you can be trusted to ride around with the rest of the ground team in a CAP van.

Gotta raise the BS flag. We don't have to train someone. They have to demonstrate they have mastered the skills. Whether that comes from a CAP class, US Army course, BSA Jamboree, whatever. The source of the training is irrelevent as long as they can perform the skills to CAP's satisfaction. I have seen many folks "challenge" the SQTR without a problem, even though they have not been through any "approved" CAP courses or schools for GTM.

Also, are you comparing the Eagle Scout to a GTM qualified cadet officer or just any cadet officer you happen to see? If the former, you need to train your GTM qualified people better, if the latter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

[floridacyclist]

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

You are not the military...why would you insist on treating your people so bad? (let me talk to them...I'll have them go over your head too if you like )

So now any time your commander says something you don't like you're just supposed to climb over his head and get your way anyway? And this is supposed to be military/professional?

While I may not completely agree with the idea of requiring members to pass additional special requirements to promote (and that is against the regs to do so blatantly, which does seem to be the case here), I do believe in asking for more than a pulse and proof of outside position before signing the CAPF2.

I also however believe that members should voluntarily pass AFIADL 13 before seeking advanced promotions to Captain or above (especially above) and have counseled members on such. They should at least make it a very high priority along with other PD goals. A big part of my reasoning is that folks seeing you wearing those oak leaves are going to assume that you know something about CAP and you really don't want to be embarassed when they find out that you know as much or less than the average cadet airman.

That said, I would have no problem with a regulation change allowing special appointments to only substitute for the TIG requirements while still requiring the member to meet all other requirements such as PD standards and AFIADL 13. While I recognize that such appointments are primarily a recruiting/retention tool, I don't think that being allowed to make advanced grade at your own pace rather than having to wait for theTIG requirements would be such a bad incentive and would actually encourage these folks to study and learn about CAP.

[Eclipse]

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

Awesome!  Great attitude.  I'm sure that did wonders for your working relationship and the unit's cohesion.

How high, exactly would you go before you stopped?  Wing, Region?

At least I can understand, what with the extra money and respect and all.

All I can say is, if you did that to me, from that point forward I would do every thing I could for you - all further promotions, ES paperwork and anything else you needed would be prepared early to make sure it was always submitted timely, and any doors you needed opened, or wheels greased would happen no questions. 

You would always be granted the benefit of the doubt in all aspects of CAP and never held to the letter of the reg. 

[Eclipse]

Also, are you comparing the Eagle Scout to a GTM qualified cadet officer or just any cadet officer you happen to see? If the former, you need to train your GTM qualified people better, if the latter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Yes - Eagle is equivelent to Spaatz in that it is the highest award of the org, but has nothing to do with their field abilities. They could have concentrated on more academic and social badges and be no more (or less able than a GT3-T).

The Boy Scouts doesn't really have an equivelent program to our GT's.  Yes they do plenty of adventure stuff, but they have no Congressionally mandated mission, and therefore their training and goals are more self-growth and community service orientated, versus CAP which is mission-focused.

[lordmonar]

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

Awesome!  Great attitude.  I'm sure that did wonders for your working relationship and the unit's cohesion.

How high, exactly would you go before you stopped?  Wing, Region?

If you think that you are being treated unfairly?  National of course. 

I don't understand your reaction?  The member was not satisfied by his commander's action and he took it up the chain of command.  Is this not what we teach our cadets to do all the time.  Chain of command, chain of command.

"OH don't use the chain of command because you will ruin unit cohesion!"  BS!

At least I can understand, what with the extra money and respect and all.

Hell yes!  We give good money and time to this program and we are ENTITLED to every promotion that we can get.  Why not question the unit commander's dedication to unit cohesion and morale?  What reason would he hold back the promotion.  Maybe he is one of these...I just don't like advanced promotion guys....which is not in the spirit of the regulation...but withing the letter of the law.

[lordmonar]

The Boy Scouts doesn't really have an equivalent program to our GT's.  Yes they do plenty of adventure stuff, but they have no Congressionally mandated mission, and therefore their training and goals are more self-growth and community service orientated, versus CAP which is mission-focused.

?

What does having a congressionally mandated mission have to do with field skills and how the training evolved.  Both CAP and BSA developed their training IAW their training objectives. 

Anyway...I have don't want Eagle Scouts credited with GTM qualification....like it has been said manytimes....all you have to do is demonstrate the skill to a SET qualified (and task qualified) individual and you are golden.

What I want is Eagle Scout to equate to an advanced promotion.  Maybe not to Capt like Spaatz but to 1st Lt would be about right.

[Eclipse]

What reason would he hold back the promotion.  Maybe he is one of these...I just don't like advanced promotion guys....which is not in the spirit of the regulation...but withing the letter of the law.

I have no idea why he was denied, and don't care, if Group CC's are going to go around over-riding Unit CC's decisoin on silliness like advanced grade promotions, they might as well just replace the unit CC, rather than killing his local command authority by over-riding him.

[BlackKnight]

Gotta raise the BS flag. We don't have to train someone. They have to demonstrate they have mastered the skills. Whether that comes from a CAP class, US Army course, BSA Jamboree, whatever. The source of the training is irrelevent as long as they can perform the skills to CAP's satisfaction. I have seen many folks "challenge" the SQTR without a problem, even though they have not been through any "approved" CAP courses or schools for GTM.

Actually, we do have to train them.  The ROA comm class is required for GTM3. Doesn't matter that you may have spent 20 years as an AF comm specialist.  As is a certified first aid course from a licensed instructor. BSA First Aid training doesn't cut it, even though IMO the BSA training is more applicable to our GTM operations than the Red Cross training.  The 600m compass course must be completed by taking azimuths and walking it, not by discussing it in the squadron meeting room. 

And I don't know how it works in your squadron or wing, but in my wing a GTM SQTR with all tasks showing the same training date and same trainer CAPID is a guaranteed red flag for approval questions.  (As IMO it should be, unless it's a consquence of week-long training such as Hawk or NESA where all the tasks are signed off on the final day.)

Also, are you comparing the Eagle Scout to a GTM qualified cadet officer or just any cadet officer you happen to see? If the former, you need to train your GTM qualified people better, if the latter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Neither.  If you reread my post I was decribing a hypothetical situation that shouldn't happen because our current ES regs don't permit it.  Let me clarify. If I were faced with a ground team style emergency (let's be clear and define a "lost hiker" scenario with no official CAP involvement), then I'd choose an Eagle Scout for my "team" before I'd take an average CAP officer (cadet or senior) with no prior ES training.  This is simply common sense.  Then I pointed out that CAP gives no credit whatsoever for prior GTM ES training by other organizations.  And that relates back to the original topic of this thread- should there be special advancement for senior members with infantry experience?  If we're consistent with our current practice in the ES training realm, the answer would have to be NO.

[RiverAux]

There are some Boy Scout Explorer SAR units out there by the way. 

[sandman]

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

You are not the military...why would you insist on treating your people so bad? (let me talk to them...I'll have them go over your head too if you like )

So now any time your commander says something you don't like you're just supposed to climb over his head and get your way anyway? And this is supposed to be military/professional?

While I may not completely agree with the idea of requiring members to pass additional special requirements to promote (and that is against the regs to do so blatantly, which does seem to be the case here), I do believe in asking for more than a pulse and proof of outside position before signing the CAPF2.

I also however believe that members should voluntarily pass AFIADL 13 before seeking advanced promotions to Captain or above (especially above) and have counseled members on such. They should at least make it a very high priority along with other PD goals. A big part of my reasoning is that folks seeing you wearing those oak leaves are going to assume that you know something about CAP and you really don't want to be embarassed when they find out that you know as much or less than the average cadet airman.

That said, I would have no problem with a regulation change allowing special appointments to only substitute for the TIG requirements while still requiring the member to meet all other requirements such as PD standards and AFIADL 13. While I recognize that such appointments are primarily a recruiting/retention tool, I don't think that being allowed to make advanced grade at your own pace rather than having to wait for theTIG requirements would be such a bad incentive and would actually encourage these folks to study and learn about CAP.

Sorry, couldn't disagree more. If you had been in the military, you might understand how things really work including how to use the "chain" properly to include "backchannel" networking. You are supporting the letter of the law without understanding the spirit of the law.

In my case, as well as other medical professionals I've worked with (in CAP) tend to access training when we can, but that should not prevent members from being promoted IAW current regulations. Adding such onerous requirements such as your AFIADL 13 in the long run will discourage your membership. Why do you insist on treating your professionals that way? Heck, in the real military, promotion to O-3 and to some extent O-4 is pretty much automatic anyway (caveat-medical field).

If your so intent on this ridiculous bent, then run for a spot on the BOG and change the regulations.

[sandman]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

Well, I subjectively share that one with ya. I really think we need to knock down a lot of that stuff. If you need to bribe someone in the door, then you don't need that kind of member. You also don't need to stomp on the people who put in years of hard work moving thru thaose grades. When a doctor comes in the military they make them a Captain. That's for two reasons: first, to place them in command over nurses/med staff; & second, because they've decided the respect/authority associated w/ Capt is what's required to get people to listen to you as a doctor - hell if I know what the formula is. You see though how that's the same kind of system we use for certain staff positions get full Colonel? They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic. It's not about getting people in the door or that their outside skill makes them this or that. I think we probably all bring something special to CAP in our own way.

So no joy for ground punders. Not unless you want to make self-employed/retired a skill that warrants advanced promotion cause they have time to give. It's already way far out of hand & needs reeling in.

DNALL<

Military Doctors do NOT command Nurses. You have Nurses that are MAJ's and Lt COL's. Dr's are forbidden from command. You have Medical Services Officers that do that. Dr's just doctor.

Whoa son, what country do you serve in?!?