Aircraft and Squadrons

Started by flyguy06, December 29, 2006, 05:51:52 PM

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RocketPropelled

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 02:26:44 AM
Remember, the Scanner/Observer training is only "somewhat organized."  Like the Squadron Commander or Air OPS officer said... "We did pretty good last week, lets see if we can hammer out some SQTR quals and do some flying to hammer it home."

I'm sure that they could reach a concensus.

You're kind of ignoring my point, which is -- who reserved the plane?

No matter how "somewhat organized" the event is, it's SOMEONE'S responsibility to reserve the aircraft and get an FRO to release the flight. That "someone" is, at the very least, the PIC for the training flight(s).

If you have a bunch of people that show up at the airport for an impromptu "training session" and didn't consult anyone as to the availability of the airplane, it's their own problem, and they should get their act together.

I travel across the Southeast for work. A lot. All the time, in fact.  So if I want access to an airplane for proficiency, each wing/group/squadron has procedures. I start shaking trees until some friendly helper lets me know the procedures, and I clear it with them.

Am I reg-bound to do so? Not necessarily. As long as the Wing Commander (or Wing Stan/Eval types) have approved me to fly the Wing's airframes, I can do so -- but out of courtesy, respect, cooperation, and plain good manners, I'd try to check in with the local people who probably hold the keys to the airplane.

If I rolled up to the local FBO where the nearest CAP plane was tied down, I'd fully expect to be told to pound sand unless I'd made previous arrangements with the appropriate people.  That's just courtesy, folks. 

Whether I'm shown in MIMS or not is another issue -- my MIMS info was held up until I could get a long-distance approval from someone on my new medical.  Would I be legal to fly? According to the FAA, sure -- but at some point, the MIMS approval issue needs to be tempered with common sense. If it shows "task expired" on my medical in MIMS, my info won't show up there -- even if I show the local FRO and SQ/CC the real live medical in my hand.

I chose to wait until my medical cleared MIMS to fly, for instance.

You're cramming several unlikely scenarios into one. We're trying to tell you as pilots what will happen in those situations.

If you want to "what if", it'll go a long way past the guidance in 60-1, and plenty deep into local procedures -- most of which aren't posted where new pilots can read and digest them.

Consult your wing/group DO for clarification, if you're that concerned about it.

Major Carrales

#21
 I detect a bit of vitriol in your post...the bold face text, your pointing out that you (plural, by the way) "as pilots" and your reference for me to look to my WING DO as if this is a real life situation.

The purpose of this example is to solicit opinions for discussion.  So that some might learn from a more global view of CAP.  Many of us tend to not look beyond the horizon that is our group.

Things go bad in Civil Air Patrol, when people do not think about things before hand.  There are several things in this example at play...

1) A Local Squadron Commander- Some people here have a problem with a Squadron Commander "refusing the keys."  I suspect that is the point of the original premise in this thread that "squadrons do not own aircraft."  I'm sure there have been many SQUADRON and GROUP commanders that have exercized their policy more in line with a "feudal lord unto their vassals."

That is deplorable and is a practice that must stop.

However, there are likely times when a Squadron Commander has to with hold the keys.

2) A high ranking CAP Officer shopping around for fly time/pulling rank-   I find it strange that no one questions the motives of the Lt Col that suddenly appears.  I assume it could be for several good reasons that a CAP Lt Col would drive out of their area and seek to fly.  It could be a WING staffer trying to see what goes on at a local level.  It could be that aircraft are down in the Lt Col's part of the WING and, due to free time and some money, the Pilot wants to fly.  It could even be that this CAP Officer wants to get to know other people across the WING in event he is ever deployed there.

I can also think of more sinister reasons why this person might be there.  Could be playing politics, or circumnavigating some policy in their own field of influence.  Could be a GROUP/WING staffer with some vendeta against the FRO or CC of that unit.

3) CAP Procedures- You are correct in calling the procedure into question.  Suppose it was an impromtu activity.  Did the FRO know what was what.  Suppose the Squadron Commander/FRO simply let the guy into the aircraft and it turned out this guy was barred from flying.  Suppose the Lt Col crashes the aircraft.



On to the situation itself...

The situation is totally hypothetical.  Even though, we can assume several things mus happen...

1) Any flying being done at the "somewhat organized" activity would be cleared by a flight release officer IAW 60-1.  Plus, the FRO is present.

2) If some CAP officer no one has ever heard of shows up to a airport and demands flying...they will at least be "suspect."

QuoteI travel across the Southeast for work. A lot. All the time, in fact.  So if I want access to an airplane for proficiency, each wing/group/squadron has procedures. I start shaking trees until some friendly helper lets me know the procedures, and I clear it with them.

It is obvious that the Lt Col in this example did not do so, but rather showed up expecting for some squadron commander to let him fly.    Maybe even as a test.  Who knows?  That is a worthy area of discussion.


QuoteWhether I'm shown in MIMS or not is another issue -- my MIMS info was held up until I could get a long-distance approval from someone on my new medical.  Would I be legal to fly? According to the FAA, sure -- but at some point, the MIMS approval issue needs to be tempered with common sense. If it shows "task expired" on my medical in MIMS, my info won't show up there -- even if I show the local FRO and SQ/CC the real live medical in my hand.

The validity of MIMS data is also in question.  If one goes by the idea the MIMS is "canon law" then an FRO is duty bound to go by the findings therein.  Another worthy topic.

QuoteYou're cramming several unlikely scenarios into one. We're trying to tell you as pilots what will happen in those situations.

If you want to "what if", it'll go a long way past the guidance in 60-1, and plenty deep into local procedures -- most of which aren't posted where new pilots can read and digest them.

Consult your wing/group DO for clarification, if you're that concerned about it.

Unlikely senarios have a tendency to actually occur.  Because of that the excremental intesertion to the blades of the fan is far splattering...in plain non Vulcan English, it messes us up.

Here is a clincher, much of this local policy is not standard.  Should we be working to make it so...a last worthy point.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Hotel 179

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 01:35:32 AM

The Lt Col's "paperwork" seems to be in order but on cannot log into MIMS...all there is at the site is a recent printout.  

Do you let the Lt Col fly?  What would you do?  What is the correct thing to do?  YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

Well, there you have it....his paperwork is in order, nuff said.  Next problem, he ain't got no keys.  I have keys, all my pilots have keys, anyone who can produce the paperwork IAW CAPR60-1 will be provided a key...and will have a hop around the patch with a check pilot.

I would let the gent know that we were having a session and invite him to participate in the training.  If he's really interested in CAP, I'm sure that he will spend some time helping us out by sharing his knowledge and experience.  Besides, the regs prohibit him from using the aircraft for his own benefit so he has no place to be at any time in particular.  If it's a self-conducted proficiency flight I'm sure that he wouldn't mind one of my pilots riding along as a safety pilot....especially since he may not be familiar with local procedures.

We live in the extreme southern end of Alabama...the Florida line is 10 miles away.  By going through channels of communication we regularly train and perform missions across State lines.  We have even executed missions with a combined crew, sometimes in "theirs" other times "ours".....

You can do a lot in this world just by saying "please." 

Semper vi, ya'll.....
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

Major Carrales

Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 30, 2006, 05:54:07 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 01:35:32 AM

The Lt Col's "paperwork" seems to be in order but on cannot log into MIMS...all there is at the site is a recent printout.  

Do you let the Lt Col fly?  What would you do?  What is the correct thing to do?  YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

Well, there you have it....his paperwork is in order, nuff said.  Next problem, he ain't got no keys.  I have keys, all my pilots have keys, anyone who can produce the paperwork IAW CAPR60-1 will be provided a key...and will have a hop around the patch with a check pilot.

I would let the gent know that we were having a session and invite him to participate in the training.  If he's really interested in CAP, I'm sure that he will spend some time helping us out by sharing his knowledge and experience.  Besides, the regs prohibit him from using the aircraft for his own benefit so he has no place to be at any time in particular.  If it's a self-conducted proficiency flight I'm sure that he wouldn't mind one of my pilots riding along as a safety pilot....especially since he may not be familiar with local procedures.

We live in the extreme southern end of Alabama...the Florida line is 10 miles away.  By going through channels of communication we regularly train and perform missions across State lines.  We have even executed missions with a combined crew, sometimes in "theirs" other times "ours".....

You can do a lot in this world just by saying "please." 

Semper vi, ya'll.....

Thank you. Good call.  RocketPropelled had mentioned a reasonable solution.  This would seem to outline one such example.

Thank you,
Major Carrales
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

RocketPropelled

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 04:56:28 AM
I detect a bit of vitriol in your post...the bold face text, your pointing out that you (plural, by the way) "as pilots" and your reference for me to look to my WING DO as if this is a real life situation.

If I ever get vitriolic, there will be no doubt about it.  If you have actual questions about resolving conflicts, (and I sense you do, since you're probing for discussion and follow-up on your hypothetical situation) you shouldn't hesitate to contact the folks at the tip of that particular spear -- especially since you seem to take offense at having other posters (or maybe just me) address them.

That said, if you're offended by the "as pilots" reference, you shouldn't be -- I pointed it out because (and I'll make an "I statement," keeping it singular) I've had to deal with several of the issues.  When they come up, you work with other people to solve them.  Our regulatory guidance is fairly straightforward, but it certainly doesn't address every potential event at every echelon.

As far as your hypothetical, as a colleague used to advise me in times of constructive criticism, "Perhaps you should ask a better question."

As a CAP pilot, if you are in the training or proficiency pipeline (and that excludes your possible Wing staffers or these mystically empowered Random Officers you hypothesized), you already know you shouldn't just walk up to a random airplane and demand the keys.  And if you don't check out in MIMS, and your paperwork is in disarray, and you haven't touched base with anyone in the area, someone's probably not going to let you fly solo PIC.  Anyone who tries the "don't you know who I am" stuff automatically raises a red flag, and someone with the keys should act accordingly -- and usually this can be resolved with a couple of phone calls.  Or a big production of showing them their own CAPID and driver's license, and asking the person if there's someone at home they can call to help them cure their amnesia. Whichever.

All local procedures are different. That's why we do fam flights and such in each location (or I try to, anyway).  You work with the folks in the area to familiarize yourself with the local (read Wing, Group, Squadron) rules, regulations, and policies.

Often squadron commanders are reticent to hand over the keys for very good reasons -- you'll note that 60-1 doesn't specify financial procedures for proficiency flight hours.  Wing supplements can specify the amount per hour, but local procedures establish how the checks are written, whom they're dropped off with, et cetera.  And if the SQ/CC doesn't know you from anyone, how should they trust that you're going to write a good check? It's a serious issue in some places.  But some folks want to see the worst -- the "feudal lord" issue, for instance -- instead of noting that if someone has signed for the airplane, they have a vested interest in making sure you're good to go before taking it up.  It's less a "feudal lord" issue, and more of a "I had to sign for this airplane, I need to know you're not going to break it" issue.

Quote from: Major Carrales
The purpose of this example is to solicit opinions for discussion.  So that some might learn from a more global view of CAP.  Many of us tend to not look beyond the horizon that is our group.

The discussion is being addressed, though I'm not sure it's provoking the topics you wanted. 

If a Wing staffer comes up and wants to use the plane, that's one situation -- you let the FRO do it, since that's part of their gig. 

If a random Mystery Officer of Uncertain Intent rolls up and demands the keys, then you follow up accordingly, using one's common sense and knowledge of the regulations.  You can't know someone's sinister plans (I mean, the dead-giveaway Snidely Whiplash mustache is well out of AF-standards, in which case they really shouldn't be wearing a green zoombag...), especially in the case of a random hypothetical. I'd imagine a courtesy phone call could explain many of these mysteries you want to discuss, and suss out what's actually going on.

During my initial contacts for flying with another wing, I explained my work travel situation, and that wing's staffers took the liberty of looking me up in MIMS.  I was perfectly okay with that -- I expected them to do so.  That's how we discovered my medical hadn't been "approved" yet by my wing of membership.  So I didn't show up in the system -- and I certainly didn't expect to be allowed to fly, and I certainly didn't press the point.  That's how the system is supposed to work.  Once everything was squared away in the system, we pressed forward.  I showed up with all my paperwork in order, did my questionnaire, filled out more paper, passed my checkride with the new wing, and moved forward.

If you actually want to know about local procedures, ask your chain of command in Texas.  They can also tell you the "why" portion, and explain to you how their system works.  That's where I'd start asking questions, because I've had to do it myself.  For the record, I'm mightily impressed with the Baldwin County squadron in Alabama Wing. They've got their stuff together in bringing pilots up to speed -- so not only do I try to say "please," I'm also not shy about saying "thank you."  Captain Pearce runs a high-speed program down there, as far as I'm concerned.

You could also start flying with some folks, if you're not doing so already, and get some serious hands-on experience with your specific procedures.  I think you'll find many of your questions answered by actually dealing with them.  I'm not sure where you get that all local procedures should be standardized, if you're not familiar with them in your own backyard.  I think you'll discover that they're standard for a reason, and with staff approval. They're not written in stone, and can be changed if they're unreasonable or untenable.

Our regs, as written, are for the purpose of flight management and safety, not for having a common scheduling system or key storage procedure in every airplane in the nation.  I think the scheduling issue is being worked on, and it would certainly create some efficiencies the the system.  But like I said, you can't write every possible scenario into the system -- sooner or later, you must depend on someone's judgement.

We have a system of checks and balances, from the MIMS database to the flight release procedure to the actual handling of keys to the airplane.  Mistakes will be made in judgement, but for the most part, we're professionals out here, and we'll do the right things.

And if not, there are ways to handle the situation. Chain of command, et cetera.  You can tabletop or hypothesize all night long, and drive yourself to the point of hair-pulling, but it probably wouldn't get you closer to clarity.  Ask questions of the folks who handle that sort of thing -- some of us are even trying to help you.

Hotel 179

#25
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 05:58:56 AM
Thank you. Good call.  RocketPropelled had mentioned a reasonable solution.  This would seem to outline one such example.

Thank you,
Major Carrales

You are very welcome.....RocketPropelled is one of the folks that I know who can speak to the situation of flying away from home....He showed up on our doorstep, away from home during the holidays...he was pityful...what could we do but take him in and make him one of our own for the short time that he'd be here....you ought to see the stuff he has in his go-bag...talk about you bells and whistles!

After an extensive check-ride with Hans, we taught him the secret handshake...heck, I even flew an hour to meet him across the bay just to save him a drive to our airport.  We wrung it out for a couple of hours then sat in the FBO with a bunch of Navy flyers and swapped stories of the old days around Pensacola, the Cradle of Naval Aviation.

Now, here's the invitation:  Plan a trip to visit the Naval Aviation Museum onboard NAS Pensacola and then come to KJKA and fly with us.  If you are here during the Summer months, I'll get you a slot during the Sundown Patrol.  If you need a mission for your SQTR we'll hook you up.

Semper vi,

Quote tags - MIKE
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

Major Carrales

RocketPropelled,

I thank you for your comments.  They are being quite helpful in my global understanding of how this all works.  If I seem offensive, I appologize.  One has to be careful in how they present questions here.

I suffer, at present, from the overwhelming condition of trying to look at the big picture.  I have read all the regs, I have participated in the activities and I find I am wanting to know more.  However, there are some here who try to turn every honest to goodness question into the "Burr-Hamilton Duel" or worse, the "Gun Fight at the OK Corral."  Thus, I sometimes read into comments the tenor of the last discussion.  A fault on my part I plan to correct.

I thrive on discussion, it allows me to grasp the greater concepts.  I, unlike many here, have no problem when a discussion begins to take an unexpected turn.  Conversation is fluidic...thus, from your last post I have gained a greater understanding based on your wisdom in the matter.  I ask open ended questions on far fethced senarios so that I might learn from the reactions of other CAPTALKERS, a nationwide lexicon.  That, some day when I am in a situation of similar tenor and circumstance I can call upon what I have learned from you and others.

For that I am thankful.  Your posts always provide me with understanding.

Major Carrales
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

DNall

Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2006, 06:59:35 PM
Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.
Good point!

Al Sayre

I've actually had a stranger (one of them Yankee fellers from Wisconsin or Michigan somewhere up north :D) show up with paperwork and want to fly the aircraft based with our Squadron.  Since I'm not a check pilot, and I didn't know him from Adam, I whipped out the handy dandy telephone list of Wing Officers and called the Wing DO.  Told him the deal, and put the dude on the phone.  They talked for a few minutes, and the DO set him up for a local check ride etc. no big deal...  I guess the key is keep your phone list handy and pass the problem up the chain of command, let the DO make the call - that's what he's there for...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787