HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

[NIN]

Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.

The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.

Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue.  The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.

I don't disagree that this is not specifically a Level I issue, but I think you can easily draw the line from faulty initial training to this kind of thing happening later in someone's "career".  You build a house on a shaky foundation and who knows what happens to it later on.

Could this be a "shake & bake" major who got some sort of professional appointment and was able to bypass much of Level II & III? Maybe.

Could this be an indication that Professional Development in this specific wing is sorely lacking from Level I consistency on up to the content and conduct of SLS & CLC? Perhaps.

My point is: we don't get better and more consistently trained officers by reducing the training to powerpoints, online slides, etc.   Level I should not be a "one and done" training event, yet it gets treated that way by the majority of units I've ever seen.  (I was lucky: the last unit I commanded, I had a PDO who was a retired ARNG Major, and he was serious about PD.   We adhered to both the letter & the spirit of the regulations.  And we went a lot further than that to ensure that our people were adequately trained and mentored, not just "powerpointed.")

Lets face it: teaching customs and courtesies to folks who have never been in the military can't easily be done with text and lecture. It requires practical exercises, repetition, situational opportunities, etc.  And people teaching who understand it themselves.

Frankly, I think the PD program in CAP ain't all that great. When I went to region staff college, about 50% of the curriculum was material that really should have been seen by officers a LOT earlier in their professional development.  Folks preparing to move from Major to Lt Col shouldn't be spending a half hour on uniform inspections every morning (although, sadly, we have to, I think), or having to be taught communication & team work concepts.  Thats company-grade stuff.  Field grade officers, especially at a "Region Staff College," should be getting much higher level training in corporate leadership subjects, wing and region level issues, etc. 

(An aside: I spent about 10 years in one wing in the northeast, and in those 10 years, at the wing level, PD never really got the level of command interest or emphasis placed on it that I saw in other wings.

I mean, SLS & CLC courses were conducted, sure.  Whatever it took to check the "minimum requirements" so that the wing wouldn't draw fire during the next IG inspection.  But they were conducted like "two days you gotta do at wing HQ." not "Good professional development training you can use."  I can't tell you how many times an SLS or CLC would be scheduled, never mentioned at commander's call until three weeks beforehand, and then canceled or postponed due to lack of interest.

Seniors in my unit would say to me "What is SLS all about?" I'd pretty much recite the 50-18 definition of the program and explain why its important, required for Level II, etc.   And then I'd say "Here's when the next wing scheduled SLS is.  Do a little research on the Internet and see if one of our neighboring states are running one before then, and if you can swing it, I highly recommend going to SLS outside of the wing." 

In those 10 years, I think we had an "actually assigned and doing the job" wing professional development officer for maybe a year or two, but most of day-to-day TTN/PDO type work, scheduling, shagging down course directors & instructors for SLS, etc, had been done by the wing administrator.

In 2004, when I was about to finish my first tour as squadron commander, my wing commander and I were chatting in the hospitality suite at the wing conference, and the question of what I wanted to do after I was done at the squadron came up. 

At the time, I saw a real gap in senior training in the wing and felt there was a lot more we could be doing to raise the level of professionalism in the senior member corps in the wing.  I had a whole boat load of ideas about things I could do for senior training, leveraging a lot of the things like I'd done for cadet training in the wing in two prior tours as the wing director of cadet programs. 

So I said "I really want to do senior training. I want to do for the senior side of the wing what I did for the cadet program as the CP." And I went on to outline some ideas, etc.

The wing commander sat there for a second and then said "Well, would you be interested in being the assistant ES officer?"

So, uh, yeah...  Suffice to say, I didn't bother to rejoin wing staff after my stint at the squadron. Clearly, there was zero interest from the commander of doing anything to bolster the professional development of 1/2 of the membership...)

[RiverAux]

Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.

The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.

Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue.  The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.

Another likely possibility is that this person is one who wears the golf shirt uniform on a regular basis and has had any C&C that they actually learned atrophy because of disuse over the years.  We shouldn't be surprised that saluting practices are so spotty across CAP when it is entirely possible to spend a significant portion, or even your entire career, in a uniform where you are not required to salute anyone (though some others still might salute you).  And it is only getting worse as more members choose this uniform over others, whether because they want to avoid saluting issues, get the cheapest uniform available, or just don't want to mess with the sewing involved in the military-style uniforms, or for comfort. 

The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt. 

[billford1]

I prefer the Golf Shirt when with CAP at an event where we are hosted at a Military Base.  I wear the Aviator Shirt and BBDU to other CAP events and encounter National Guard and USAF who are civil and professional when we have occasion to speak. Over 9 years in 3 Wings I have had one maybe two rude encounters with lower ranking AF enlisted men while I was in BDUs. My reaction was to disengage to avoid an unwinnable outcome where Cadets could be in the audience. I do not expect to be saluted by Military folks but have been saluted and have had occasions where I would walk in and the group would come to attention at which point I would say "good morning, as you were" , and then move on. When saluted I always return the salute quickly. Most Cadets salute me except for an occasional higher ranking Cadet who refuses to salute even though the other Cadets do.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.

I've never heard it phrased that way, but I see your point.  There is no way to recognise rank with it.

It is probably the most "civilianised" (yes, I know we're civilians) of the CAP-distinctive uniforms.  Much as I personally dislike it, the white/grey is worlds more military-looking than the golf shirt. 

As much as I hate this happening, I accept that the CSU is going out, so there has got to be a way to have a decent headgear for the G/W.

Since there is no grey garrison-type cap that I can find available, unless we get lucky and buy up a stock of old East German ones (they are exactly the same shade of grey as CAP shoulder marks), the best option I could see is to go for another colour, like khaki, or something like the US Military Academy cap:



I have never worn the golf shirt and don't see myself ever doing so.  In my experience, the main (but not exclusively) ones doing so were the flying clubs senior squadrons I've belonged to and observed who just wear that to be in compliance with uniform regs when flying CAP aircraft.

However, I've been a member of composite squadrons where some of the members wore it...but not exclusively.

I would also say that standardised outergarments like the black sweater (doesn't have to be the Army one, there's loads of civilian made ones) would be good for the g/w.

[peter rabbit]

The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.

It is probably the most "civilianised" (yes, I know we're civilians) of the CAP-distinctive uniforms.  Much as I personally dislike it, the white/grey is worlds more military-looking than the golf shirt. As much as I hate this happening, I accept that the CSU is going out, so there has got to be a way to have a decent headgear for the G/W.

I have never worn the golf shirt and don't see myself ever doing so.  In my experience, the main (but not exclusively) ones doing so were the flying clubs senior squadrons I've belonged to and observed who just wear that to be in compliance with uniform regs when flying CAP aircraft.

Ding, ding, ding - time to move this to the uniform section.

p.s. I agree we need a suitable headgear option for the aviator shirt/grey slacks. I'm not much into the baseball cap.

[RiverAux]

Uh, uniforms and saluting are intrinsically linked to each other.

[Eclipse]

Uh, uniforms and saluting are intrinsically linked to each other.

Gotta go with river on this, if the member had not been in uniform, this would have never happened.

[FARRIER]

Just a thought. For those that can only wear the Aviators, start practicing the C&C's . Practice them at training events off military installations. Practice them at training events that both include and don't include cadets. Practice them in public view. The maybe the "custom" will spread (pun intended).

Respectfully,

Level 1 is fine the way it's currently structured.

The failure is squadrons treating it like an on-line course and not providing mentoring.

Let's also not forget...this is not a Level 1 issue.  The individual in question held the grade of Major, which absent a small number of professional appointments, means they completed Levels 1-3 of the PD program.

Another likely possibility is that this person is one who wears the golf shirt uniform on a regular basis and has had any C&C that they actually learned atrophy because of disuse over the years.  We shouldn't be surprised that saluting practices are so spotty across CAP when it is entirely possible to spend a significant portion, or even your entire career, in a uniform where you are not required to salute anyone (though some others still might salute you).  And it is only getting worse as more members choose this uniform over others, whether because they want to avoid saluting issues, get the cheapest uniform available, or just don't want to mess with the sewing involved in the military-style uniforms, or for comfort. 

The biggest "threat" to a CAP that knows and understands C&C isn't our training programs -- it is the golf shirt.

[SarDragon]

I still firmly believe in the idea that if you are not wearing a hat, you should not be saluting.

I learned it that way a long time ago, and it relieves a lot of confusion when in place as a policy.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I still firmly believe in the idea that if you are not wearing a hat, you should not be saluting.

Unless reporting to a superior officer indoors.

That is one reason I brought up a suggestion for suitable headgear for those not wearing the AF uniform.

[FlyTiger77]

I still firmly believe in the idea that if you are not wearing a hat, you should not be saluting.

I learned it that way a long time ago, and it relieves a lot of confusion when in place as a policy.

Dave,

Your Navy-ness is showing. 

[RADIOMAN015]

Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, 

The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program   No amount of training is going to change that "goofness".   Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.   

I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base.   Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM   

[Flying Pig]

Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, 

The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program   No amount of training is going to change that "goofness".   Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.   

I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base.   Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM   

HEY!!  A little respect please, Im right here!

[FARRIER]

Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, 

The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program   No amount of training is going to change that "goofness".   Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.   

I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base.   Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM   

I haven't gotten a response yet, from the chain of command, on my question on the actual incidents that have occurred. But your last quote, "Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military", will get us in hot water. Unlike how it was framed in the National Commander's letter, your framing has a connotation of, if we are civilians. why do we need to salute. Going back and looking over Respect on Display (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf), alot of the stuff is common sense courtesy I remember growing up as a kid. Proper mentoring and standard use, of the customs of this organization, not creating bipolar conditions in members will fix this problem, actual or insinuated.

Respectfully,

[arajca]

It's really simple:

If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.

If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.

[FARRIER]

According to the National Commander, not everyone is getting it. In general terms, some people don't get K.I.S.S. Sometimes, slow mentoring is needed.

It's really simple:

If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.

If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.

[RADIOMAN015]

Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, 

The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program   No amount of training is going to change that "goofness".   Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.   

I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base.   Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM   

I haven't gotten a response yet, from the chain of command, on my question on the actual incidents that have occurred. But your last quote, "Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military", will get us in hot water. Unlike how it was framed in the National Commander's letter, your framing has a connotation of, if we are civilians. why do we need to salute. Going back and looking over Respect on Display (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf), alot of the stuff is common sense courtesy I remember growing up as a kid. Proper mentoring and standard use, of the customs of this organization, not creating bipolar conditions in members will fix this problem, actual or insinuated.

Respectfully,

For me being a real retired military officer, I'm always getting saluted by those security forces guys & gals that man the entrance gates, so I DO KNOW HOW to give a smart salute back and also talk with them as they check my ID card.  Some of them I know on sight because I read the base on line base newspaper and IF they've won an award or were mentioned for something they've done good, I will congratulate them.   I think it makes them feel good when some old retired officer actually knows what is going on. 
Hey IF I'm going to CAP many times I tell them that also .

The way I see this issue it's a matter of respecting EVERYONE and treating EVERYONE the way YOU want to be treated.   Frankly I'd be VERY angry if some CAP member caused an issue on our support base, especially with a saluting type incident.

I don't think National will provide any specifics on the incident involved, BUT again I feel there's other issues with uniform wear, especially the AF type, that needs to be addressed via a policy reminder.
RM

[flyboy53]

Wow this is so laughable, that again the thread turns into a uniform thread OR some silliness about lack of more customs & courtesy training, or driving many miles to attend a course, etc, etc, etc, 

The bottom line is we bring in and retain some goofy adults in the program   No amount of training is going to change that "goofness".   Retention decisions will just have to be made when these rare incidents occur.   

I'm always on patrol looking for CAP'ers that are violating the uniform wear or c&c in their dealings with actual military personnel on our base.   Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military :angel:
RM   

I haven't gotten a response yet, from the chain of command, on my question on the actual incidents that have occurred. But your last quote, "Bottom line is we are the CIVIL Air Patrol, and members need to remember that when dealing with ANYONE external to the organization, but especially the military", will get us in hot water. Unlike how it was framed in the National Commander's letter, your framing has a connotation of, if we are civilians. why do we need to salute. Going back and looking over Respect on Display (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf), alot of the stuff is common sense courtesy I remember growing up as a kid. Proper mentoring and standard use, of the customs of this organization, not creating bipolar conditions in members will fix this problem, actual or insinuated.

Respectfully,

For me being a real retired military officer, I'm always getting saluted by those security forces guys & gals that man the entrance gates, so I DO KNOW HOW to give a smart salute back and also talk with them as they check my ID card.  Some of them I know on sight because I read the base on line base newspaper and IF they've won an award or were mentioned for something they've done good, I will congratulate them.   I think it makes them feel good when some old retired officer actually knows what is going on. 
Hey IF I'm going to CAP many times I tell them that also .

The way I see this issue it's a matter of respecting EVERYONE and treating EVERYONE the way YOU want to be treated.   Frankly I'd be VERY angry if some CAP member caused an issue on our support base, especially with a saluting type incident.

I don't think National will provide any specifics on the incident involved, BUT again I feel there's other issues with uniform wear, especially the AF type, that needs to be addressed via a policy reminder.
RM

AGREED. As a retired military officer, however, please keep in mind that the reason why we are the CIVIL Air Patrol is because that was how we were initially organized under the Office of Civil Defense. The name has stayed even after the various presidential executive orders and federal laws that have impacted on the organization over the years.

I do wonder how much different our organization would have been if we had been initially organized similar to the Coast Guard Auxiliary. Afterall, they were initially organized as the Coast Guard's Reserve.

Either way, you are correct that it is and remains a matter of respect...on both sides.

[JK657]

It's really simple:

If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.

If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.

If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you-you're wrong... why is that wrong?

[JeffDG]

It's really simple:

If you are trolling for salutes - you're wrong.
If you fail to salute military officers wth higher grade than you - you're wrong.
If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you - you're wrong.

If you sharply return the salute - you're right.
If you do not worry about servicemembers saluting you - you're right.

If you take the time to explain to a servicemember that they don't need to salute you-you're wrong... why is that wrong?

Just return the salute smartly and move on...no need to get into the discussion.  Simply accept the show of respect.