HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

[DKruse]

As a CAP senior member, it all comes down to these 3 things for me:

1. I don't expect a salute from any AD, Reserve, or NG member, officer or enlisted.  If one is rendered, I return it sharply and greet them with respect.

2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.

3. Treat all with respect.

Yes, it's that simple.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Technical Sergeant, are you also a CAP member?

If all you think of CAP members is as people who feel we "deserve" a salute because we have a "snazzy uniform," then speaking only for myself, I don't need or want your "respect."

[Ned]

FWIW, whenever I was in my Guard uniform, I always saluted CAP officers.

After all, a salute is just a military greeting - one of the "courtesies" in Customs and Courtesies.

It never hurts to be courteous.

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guard Guy

[Ed Bos]

A few different folks seem to misunderstand my view.

To be clear, I didn't mean any of my commentary to indicate I'd go out of my way to be rude to anyone.

Again, I feel this less a matter of how much CAP Officers deserve to be saluted, it's a matter of the quality of their interactions with others. And I choose to be polite & professional until I meet someone who isn't. And then I'm merely curt & professional. That is a reflection of their attitude, not their CAP or AF status.

I don't mean to invite re-attack... Anymore concerns about my comments are welcome to be PM'd, but I think this thread is getting chock full. .

[Ed Bos]

It never hurts to be courteous.

Agreed.

[Ed Bos]

When I was stationed in Alaska back in the late 1970s (AAC: the best ^@!)@& command in the USAF: Top Cover for America and all that!) What happened to the relationship between the CAP and the USAF? That relationship was so intertwined then that CAP officers enjoyed a great level of respect around Elmendorf. Was it just because of people like Bob Reeves and Noel Wein or Colonel Anderson. What changed that?

The same thing that happens to these sort of relationships. We've actually still got a very good working relationship with the AF and State of AK folks who deal directly with us, but a lot of folks don't know who we are.  We've got a very good supporter in the TAG, and quite a few other senior folks as well.  I wouldn't call the relationship "intertwined" any longer though. I'll ask Mr. Whitaker, the state Director, what he thinks about your question.

[Ned]

As a CAP senior member, it all comes down to these 3 things for me:
[. . .]

2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.

As a former Army guy, let me gently suggest that #2 is somewhat problematic for a CAP captain.

If someone wearing railroad tracks salutes a lieutenant - especially an Army lieutenant - you will simply confuse them and possibly cause them some embarrasment as they try to work through the protocol in their heads.

I say this based on five years or so as an Army lieutenant.  They get beat about the head and shoulders about saluting, and regularly are discouraged and razzed if a 2LT salutes a 1LT.  ("Debating rank amongst lieutentants is like debating virtue amongst hookers . . .")

A professional greeting is always, always appropriate.  You can make them smile with things like "Have a great Air Patrol day, L-T. "

[JoeTomasone]

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

Not so.   I personally know a CAP Major who is a USAF AD SSgt.   

All you would need to do is get your Spaatz, enlist, and you are a Captain in CAP...  In 3 years, you have TIG for Major, which I presume would be ahead of schedule for SSgt.

[FlyTiger77]

As a CAP senior member, it all comes down to these 3 things for me:
[. . .]

2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.

As a former Army guy, let me gently suggest that #2 is somewhat problematic for a CAP captain.

Concur. Let the system work the way it is intended. A polite greeting of the day and possibly thanking the officer for his/her service suffices.

[Eclipse]

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

Not so.   I personally know a CAP Major who is a USAF AD SSgt.   

All you would need to do is get your Spaatz, enlist, and you are a Captain in CAP...  In 3 years, you have TIG for Major, which I presume would be ahead of schedule for SSgt.

((*sigh*))  Again "approaches zero" specifically doesn't mean "never".  Reaching for "some guy who might, or did once" doesn't mean much in a generalized conversation.

Couple that the odd of these .0001%'ers encountering a PITA CAP officer on a military base, and then refusing to salute that officer, and the statistical
relevance is literally zero.

[Eclipse]

2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.

Never, ever, do that - you're making it worse.

[RRLE]

2. I will initiate a salute to any military officer regardless of their rank.

I know you have been taken to task for that statement. Some say not to do it because it will confuse the 'other side'.

What is interesting is that a USCG Auxie volunteer, regardless of office (the Aux does not use rank), 'stars, bars, chickens or leaves', salutes all military officers, regardless of the others military rank. That means the USCG Auxiliary National Commodore, a 4 star volunteer, would salute the newest minted Ensign.

Some extracts from the Auxiliary Manual (AuxMan) related to Auxies saluting Real Military:

Auxiliarists, when out of doors, in uniform and covered, should:
• As a courtesy, initiate, or return a hand salute to commissioned officers.

As a general rule, Auxies don't salute each other.

As the AuxMan puts it:

Saluting is not required between Auxiliarists.

and

Saluting between Auxiliarists is not usually the custom.

[NCRblues]

good thing were not the coast guard Aux...

[sarmed1]

If all you think of CAP members is as people who feel we "deserve" a salute because we have a "snazzy uniform," then speaking only for myself, I don't need or want your "respect."

That is not my thought at all; however what was the point of this whole thread?    The National Commander of CAP thought enough of one, unsubstantiated incident by 1 of some 60,000 members to write a letter to the entire membeship to remind everyone of exacatly that; just because you are wearing a miltary style uniform and a rank insignia similar to that of commisioned officers of the Armed Forces, you not entitiled to being saluted by military members.

Eclipse may live in the world of near zero percent chances, but just based on the anectdotal stories a number of people have relayed here, it seems to be an issue of more than 1 in 60000 members abusing their privleges......

mk

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^PM received and replied.  Check your inbox.

I think that General Courter's letter, and the "nervous Nellie" attitude of many at National, are more reflective of the mindset that CAP has been in for at least the past 20 years; that we are so afraid of offending the Air Force again that we go into "damage control" mode even if there is no substantiated "damage."

[flyboy53]

^^PM received and replied.  Check your inbox.

I think that General Courter's letter, and the "nervous Nellie" attitude of many at National, are more reflective of the mindset that CAP has been in for at least the past 20 years; that we are so afraid of offending the Air Force again that we go into "damage control" mode even if there is no substantiated "damage."

It's not that at all.

Look at what's happened over the past decade. We went from an organization where the Air Force Auxiliary identity was promanently displayed on our command patches to the point where we are only the "auxiliary" essentially when under DoD tasking. In that time period we had several national commanders who gradually built a strong, positive relationship with the Air Force. Then we have one national commander that ignored the Air Force to do his own thing, where politics ran rampant, integrity went right out the window and our reputation went into the toilet...so much so that his actions factored into the redesign of the ACSC and AWC distance learning testing system.

So here we are today; an organization strong in some ways and holding on by a tread in others. That thread (our relationship to the Air Force) needs to grow into something very firm for both organization's futures. Our current national leadership has worked hard to reverse the errors of the past; and just when things start looking great again, something like this happens. So, the only thing to do is to micro-manage incidents like these before they get worse.

Remember, it only took a mistaken identity at a hotel to launch the whole maroon shoulder rank thing. There probably were other incidents, but that's the one everyone remembers.

I would hope that some day, our Air Force relationship is such that we are strongly respected again; where a salute is rendered out of respect regardless of who we are; where we might even be just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary and wear some of the same ribbons/medals that their A/D and reserve counterparts wear. I realize that there was a Presidential Executive Order in place when that happened in World War II, but wouldn't that be something if it happened again.

[RRLE]

where we might even be just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary and wear some of the same ribbons/medals that their A/D and reserve counterparts wear

Although there are a few USCG awards, mostly group and team awards, that Auxies may earn, the trend is toward the USCG creating Auxie only versions of awards and devices. RiverAux is also familiar with the trend and it was a subject of a recent thread on an Auxie board.

[Al Sayre]

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

Kinda like board member Maj Tim Medeiros who is at AF BMT right now?

[Eclipse]

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

Kinda like board member Maj Tim Medeiros who is at AF BMT right now?

Tell you what - when's he makes SrA, encounters a CAP officer and refuses to salute, and the CAP officer is a PITA about it, we'll go to the big-board
and set the first digit from 0 to 1.

Anecdotal information and 1% do not make an argument or a program, especially when one of the people allows for the remote possibility in
the process of the argument.

[Major Lord]

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

Kinda like board member Maj Tim Medeiros who is at AF BMT right now?

Tell you what - when's he makes SrA, encounters a CAP officer and refuses to salute, and the CAP officer is a PITA about it, we'll go to the big-board
and set the first digit from 0 to 1.

Anecdotal information and 1% do not make an argument or a program, especially when one of the people allows for the remote possibility in
the process of the argument.

Well said! I am astounded that anyone would argue the truth is not relevant to the discussion.

Major Lord