HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

[Eclipse]

[And if one does?  How is it to be handled.  An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.

My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.

The situation is not remotely the same.  USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card.  If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.

[Major Carrales]

[And if one does?  How is it to be handled.  An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.

My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.

The situation is not remotely the same.  USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card.  If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.

My point is to highlight that "line" between CAP and the USAF that exists in both cases.  Airman don't have to salute CAP's Officers nor can CAP Officers exercise any authority over USAF personnel.  By the same token, a USAF officer cannot exercise their authority in that capacity over CAP, unless it is a CAP/USAF officer and then only in official capacities.

If we respect and understand that line, these issues can be avoided.

Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?  lol

[Ed Bos]

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.

[Eclipse]

Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.

Why?

Or is it just the cornflakes part?

Its kind of sad the lengths that people will go to disrespect a volunteer.  That's what we are, remember?
If you encounter us on a military base, we bought the uniform, paid to be in the club, and if it is a weekday might have taken off work, or given up a weekend just to encounter someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge our presence in the purest form of service camaraderie.  This, probably, on a break from working to serve our country.

I've already said that any member making an issue of it should be 2b'ed on the spot, but with that said, it's one thing to simply overlook the person or just keep walking, but the animosity some people seem to have no issue displaying publicly towards such a simple gesture speaks volumes about the person displaying it as well.

Then again, there are plenty of people in the military who have no respect for their own officers, let alone for some "other" service "whatever the heck that is".  I've read and heard plenty of comments from enlisted about their attitude towards officers in general, and in many cases it is only the rule of law that forces them to comply with the bare minimum of courtesies at all.

Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.

[Eclipse]

Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?

Unless he's in in my chain, he's no different than any other member.

[cap235629]

[And if one does?  How is it to be handled.  An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.

My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.

The situation is not remotely the same.  USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card.  If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.

write down the date, I AGREE!

[Ed Bos]

Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.

Why?

Or is it just the cornflakes part?

The cornflakes part is exactly the reason. Some friends of mine and I agree that saluting Senior CAP Officers (Colonel and above) is the right thing to do no matter the uniform we're wearing at the time. But the mutual respect thing is important, and if anyone demands a salute they're showing how little they deserve it, no matter what uniform THEY'RE wearing at the time.

Its kind of sad the lengths that people will go to disrespect a volunteer.  That's what we are, remember?
If you encounter us on a military base, we bought the uniform, paid to be in the club, and if it is a weekday might have taken off work, or given up a weekend just to encounter someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge our presence in the purest form of service camaraderie.  This, probably, on a break from working to serve our country.

I understand your point, but I disagree about a central issue. Just because someone chooses to volunteer their time doesn't make them a good person. There are folks in CAP across the country that are altruistically motivated, and they deserve all the respect and admiration from their peers that you're describing. I do not feel that paying our dues and showing up on meeting nights automatically enjoins us to that status, however. We've all seen the folks who give the organization a bad rap with their attitudes, and that's the point of this whole brouhaha.

I've already said that any member making an issue of it should be 2b'ed on the spot, but with that said, it's one thing to simply overlook the person or just keep walking, but the animosity some people seem to have no issue displaying publicly towards such a simple gesture speaks volumes about the person displaying it as well.

The gesture isn't THAT simple... It's an important part of tradition and culture, and the significance of this formalized greeting is why some people have animosity towards it. I know I'm, "just a guard guy," to many people who aren't familiar with how that component of the Uniformed Service works, but I think that these customs are even more important to those of us who don't render them every day.

Then again, there are plenty of people in the military who have no respect for their own officers, let alone for some "other" service "whatever the heck that is".  I've read and heard plenty of comments from enlisted about their attitude towards officers in general, and in many cases it is only the rule of law that forces them to comply with the bare minimum of courtesies at all.

And it's been said a number different of ways in this thread, but it's the MUTUAL RESPECT that was missing from the alleged offender in this situation, and the same for many folks I've talked to who feel a lack of camaraderie and may show less that professional attitudes at times. The esprit de corps a unit has when they have good leadership (that shows mutual respect among other things) often encourages the more-grumble-heavy enlisted folks into showing more than the "bare minimum of courtesies."

Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.

I'm not clear about what you're referring to here, but if I understand you correctly then you have completely misinterpreted my original response. I love the Civil Air Patrol in all its facets with all its foibles. What I am intolerant of is the individuals within the membership who misunderstand their place, their role, and the privilege of association that comes with membership.

I would be a member of CAP even without my CAP grade. Any CAP Senior Member who displays their insecurity and lack of professionalism by conducting themselves in the way described in the National Commander's letter don't belong in my organization, much less deserve a heritage-rich salutation from me.

[FARRIER]

I get a different vibe from this. I remember right before the berry board/loss of hard rank days. There were rumors of problems with Seniors Members on Maxwell AFB being out of uniform. But no solid report. I like the corrective action of this, but I would have also liked more facts. Alot of the blame goes to the complainants on that.

Respectfully,

[flyboy53]

[And if one does?  How is it to be handled.  An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.

My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.

The situation is not remotely the same.  USAF officers are not members of CAP by virtue of their CAC card.  If they overstep their bounds you ask them to leave, if they don't, you call the police, same as any other uninvited guest.

The real solution is that someone should have been on the phone immediately to wing or the NOC and let the Air Force side deal with him immediately.

[flyboy53]

Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?

Unless he's in in my chain, he's no different than any other member.

Keep in mind the the current vice president is a lieutenant colonel in our organization.

[flyboy53]

Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.

Why?

Or is it just the cornflakes part?

The cornflakes part is exactly the reason. Some friends of mine and I agree that saluting Senior CAP Officers (Colonel and above) is the right thing to do no matter the uniform we're wearing at the time. But the mutual respect thing is important, and if anyone demands a salute they're showing how little they deserve it, no matter what uniform THEY'RE wearing at the time.

Its kind of sad the lengths that people will go to disrespect a volunteer.  That's what we are, remember?
If you encounter us on a military base, we bought the uniform, paid to be in the club, and if it is a weekday might have taken off work, or given up a weekend just to encounter someone who can't be bothered to acknowledge our presence in the purest form of service camaraderie.  This, probably, on a break from working to serve our country.

I understand your point, but I disagree about a central issue. Just because someone chooses to volunteer their time doesn't make them a good person. There are folks in CAP across the country that are altruistically motivated, and they deserve all the respect and admiration from their peers that you're describing. I do not feel that paying our dues and showing up on meeting nights automatically enjoins us to that status, however. We've all seen the folks who give the organization a bad rap with their attitudes, and that's the point of this whole brouhaha.

I've already said that any member making an issue of it should be 2b'ed on the spot, but with that said, it's one thing to simply overlook the person or just keep walking, but the animosity some people seem to have no issue displaying publicly towards such a simple gesture speaks volumes about the person displaying it as well.

The gesture isn't THAT simple... It's an important part of tradition and culture, and the significance of this formalized greeting is why some people have animosity towards it. I know I'm, "just a guard guy," to many people who aren't familiar with how that component of the Uniformed Service works, but I think that these customs are even more important to those of us who don't render them every day.

Then again, there are plenty of people in the military who have no respect for their own officers, let alone for some "other" service "whatever the heck that is".  I've read and heard plenty of comments from enlisted about their attitude towards officers in general, and in many cases it is only the rule of law that forces them to comply with the bare minimum of courtesies at all.

And it's been said a number different of ways in this thread, but it's the MUTUAL RESPECT that was missing from the alleged offender in this situation, and the same for many folks I've talked to who feel a lack of camaraderie and may show less that professional attitudes at times. The esprit de corps a unit has when they have good leadership (that shows mutual respect among other things) often encourages the more-grumble-heavy enlisted folks into showing more than the "bare minimum of courtesies."

Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.

I'm not clear about what you're referring to here, but if I understand you correctly then you have completely misinterpreted my original response. I love the Civil Air Patrol in all its facets with all its foibles. What I am intolerant of is the individuals within the membership who misunderstand their place, their role, and the privilege of association that comes with membership.

I would be a member of CAP even without my CAP grade. Any CAP Senior Member who displays their insecurity and lack of professionalism by conducting themselves in the way described in the National Commander's letter don't belong in my organization, much less deserve a heritage-rich salutation from me.

When I was stationed in Alaska back in the late 1970s (AAC: the best ^@!)@& command in the USAF: Top Cover for America and all that!) What happened to the relationship between the CAP and the USAF? That relationship was so intertwined then that CAP officers enjoyed a great level of respect around Elmendorf. Was it just because of people like Bob Reeves and Noel Wein or Colonel Anderson. What changed that?

[sarmed1]

The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach zero,

...have to call no joy; when I was a SrA; I was a CAP Captain, the only thing I had left to complete for major was CLC. 
And no the SrA in the story should not have saltued the the POS lietenant (or even the original major in question for that matter) in question; maybe if there had been no demanding of salutes sure (I would have) but after they made a fool of themself I would have told them to go pound sand too, moreover I would have asked what squadron they were from and had a chat with thier CC about thier behavior.

I agree with Ed Boss; when working with CAP as an AF NCO I dont go out of my way to salute every CAP officer and thier brother I run into running arond the AO( generally only LTC and up with any regularity) I do use the words sir/ma'am though with all CAP officers. 

I am sorry I wont salute you just because you are a volunteer and dumped money out of your pocket to come and play;  get real.  I will say thansks for all you do, but that doesnt mean DESERVE a salute.


mk

[Eclipse]

Here's one, what if the President is an active CAP Officer?

Unless he's in in my chain, he's no different than any other member.

Keep in mind the the current vice president is a lieutenant colonel in our organization.

Unless he's in my chain, he has no authority based on being either the Vice Pres or a Lt. Colonel.

[Major Lord]

Saluting CAP Officers is just below the dignity of a real life, hard corp warrior type of the Alaska ANG? You are free to ignore CAP regulations on the matter, and its unlikely that anyone will call you on it in person, other that to just note your rude behavior. How this may effect the Alaska ANG could be analogous to how the alleged and unsubstantiated "salute trolling" defames CAP. Its okay, many of us hold irrational beliefs. I believe that although the US  purchased Alaska as an investment, they are still really "probationary" as a State....Most of the CAP Officers I know and respect are prior service military, and I am honored to have the privilege of offering them a salute. Honored. Sure, there are lots of people who may not live up to whatever standards I hold as warriors worthy of my esteem, but CAP is not in the warrior business. Nonetheless, the hand salute is still a part of our Corporate culture. You can turn your back on the flag during the pledge of allegiance too, and no one will throw you out of CAP, but it reveals more about you than it does about CAP.

Major Lord
Wait, Joe Biden is really in CAP? Never mind, I quit!

[Eclipse]

The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach zero,

...have to call no joy; when I was a SrA; I was a CAP Captain, the only thing I had left to complete for major was CLC. 
And no the SrA in the story should not have saltued the the POS lietenant (or even the original major in question for that matter) in question; maybe if there had been no demanding of salutes sure (I would have) but after they made a fool of themself I would have told them to go pound sand too, moreover I would have asked what squadron they were from and had a chat with thier CC about thier behavior.

I agree with Ed Boss; when working with CAP as an AF NCO I dont go out of my way to salute every CAP officer and thier brother I run into running arond the AO( generally only LTC and up with any regularity) I do use the words sir/ma'am though with all CAP officers. 

I am sorry I wont salute you just because you are a volunteer and dumped money out of your pocket to come and play;  get real.  I will say thansks for all you do, but that doesnt mean DESERVE a salute.

First "approaches zero" specifically means "not typical but is possible", so arguing "is possible" means you aren't really reading what it says.

Second, the "POS lieutenant" in most of these cases only gets to that point when they have already been disregarded by the person of lower grade.
Unacceptable behavior, throw them out of CAP, but on the big schoolyard of life "they started it".

In terms of my "volunteer statement", the disdain for saluting by members who are also in the military is doubly unacceptable, if for no reason then
they should know better and set the example for those around them.

"Yeah, they aren't in the military, but they are here on their own dime and just want to help us.  Throw your hand and move on"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No, the Sra should not have saluted him.


Cap members do not get saluted, plain and simple. Its amazing we volunteer our time, but do not expect ANY active duty to ever salute you. Its nice if they do, but they do not have to. Doesn't matter if at night he goes home and changes into a cap uniform. During his time on duty, he is active duty AF, and follows there rules, regs, ucmj. It says we do not salute CAP members...plain and simple....

I call Bravo Sierra on this one.

Show me where in the UCMJ you "do not salute CAP members."

In our regs it says that "military members are not obligated to salute CAP officers, but are not prohibited from doing so if they wish.

That's a big difference.

I wonder if the mentality of the MTI quoted on the AF Times thread about this "if you see a CAP officer, ignore him/her" is becoming unofficial policy throughout the Air Force.

If it is, they need to be called on it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well, I'm an AK ANG SSgt, and a CAP Major, and I wouldn't salute a CAP 2d Lt, or a CAP Colonel if I was in my AF uniform and he was in my cornflakes... Just sayin.

That's a bloody self-righteous attitude.

Then you shouldn't expect even a courteous greeting from a CAP member.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Saluting CAP Officers is just below the dignity of a real life, hard corp warrior type of the Alaska ANG? You are free to ignore CAP regulations on the matter, and its unlikely that anyone will call you on it in person, other that to just note your rude behavior.

I would.

Not about saluting, since the ANG NCO in question isn't required to salute the CAP officer, but you darn well better believe I'd call him on his rudeness.

[Eclipse]

Why people join an organization that they disdain is beyond me.

I'm not clear about what you're referring to here, but if I understand you correctly then you have completely misinterpreted my original response. I love the Civil Air Patrol in all its facets with all its foibles. What I am intolerant of is the individuals within the membership who misunderstand their place, their role, and the privilege of association that comes with membership.

I would be a member of CAP even without my CAP grade. Any CAP Senior Member who displays their insecurity and lack of professionalism by conducting themselves in the way described in the National Commander's letter don't belong in my organization, much less deserve a heritage-rich salutation from me.

I am not referring to CAP members, I am referring to members of the military who join up and then disdain the very values and traditions they have sworn to uphold.  In a lot of cases the whole saluting and courtesies issue has nothing to do with whether CAP members deserve "warrior respect", but instead is about ego and finding someone they can "show who is really the man".

When you consider that there are 7 salutable uniformed services, all with their own take on things, and part of the supposed heartburn with CAP is how are uniforms are "virtually indistinguishable from USAF uniforms", I don't see how people have time to do the mental gymnastics necessary to recognize an approaching officer, realize a salute will be warranted, then realize he's CAP, then decide whether you feel like saluting, and then purposely ignore them, without walking into a light pole or getting hit by a car.

I currently work in the world of trade shows and business travel - everyone from the taxi drivers, airline people, show management workers, and hotel staff are strangers, 24x7, yet that doesn't stop me from being friendly, exchanging a smile or a nod, and being respectful.  I've learned that in all circumstances doors open and life is much easier for everyone when you act that way, even when someone isn't necessarily making my life easier at the moment.

Consider also, how much, in most circumstances, that "meaningless gesture" actually does mean to the person receiving it.  For the cost of a "meh, whatever" to you, you probably make that person's day, if not year.  And it isn't like they are actually going to start giving you orders.

So to take a mental / political stance that an entire class of people, once which your parent service acknowledges as "part of the team", are so beneath you that you go out of your way to make sure they know it, seems like a lot of wasted effort to me.

[sarmed1]

Probabally going to jam my size 11 in my mouth with this one but for me its simply not a blanket item here.  I am not required to salute CAP officers.  IF I choose to whip one out (because again I am not required to) its because I feel they deserve the respect equivilent to a member of the armed services; but based on the behaviors or appearance of many CAP officers I am not going to offer that equivilency soley on the basis of "....hey I paid my money and bought this snazzy uniform...whoohoo look at me!!"

I am sure someone is going to point out that in general passing by I am not going to be able to make such a judgement; but thats my philosphy on it; you'll get the greating of the day and a sir/ma'am, just like any other CIVILIAN here on the AF's time/dime unless I find reason to go beyond that.

mk