HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One of my favorite reasons for wearing a Corporate Uniform and not an Air Force one.  I can salute anyone I want to.

I hope you're being sarcastic, because it is not true per regs.

The regs state we are to salute any and all commissioned and warrant officers of the Armed Forces senior in rank to us.  That means Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard, Active, Reserve, Guard and State Defence Forces (?).  I would also include the NOAA Commissioned Corps and U.S. Public Health Service, because they are uniformed services and look virtually indistinguishable from the Navy unless you're close enough to see their cap devices, nameplates, etc.  Also, since the USPHS provides medical services to the Coast Guard, when they're doing that they wear CG uniforms with USPHS insignia.  I don't want to be gigged for not saluting a (for example) three-ring O-5 Commander because s/he might be NOAA or USPHS.

We also salute all officers of allied (NATO, British Commonwealth) nations.  When I was a first looie I was working at an airshow and there was a Canadian Captain displaying a T-33 (which they still flew).  I passed him, saw the two gold bands on his shoulder boards and snapped him a salute.  He looked a little surprised but returned it.

Like the saying goes, it is never inappropriate to salute.  A former squadron CC (then a CAP Major) told me that when he was at Maxwell for Air War College (I think) he said, "I saw Germans, Australians, Canadians, French, Dutch, British...I sure don't know what all their insignia were but I saluted them...I may have been saluting Corporals and Sergeants but it's not inappropriate."

[wuzafuzz]

As someone said earlier, provide counseling or membership action as appropriate and move on.

That's the problem with anonymous internet posts...difficult to provide guided counselling and membership action when the maroon is not identified.  I suppose, based on the quote above, they could demand remedial training for all female Majors, but that's as precise as the identification seems to be.

It's understood some wascawwy viowaters won't be identified.  (Sorry to channel Elmer Fudd there.    )Simply take care of the ones who are caught (identified) and the example made of them would help reduce future incidents.  Beef up Level 1 as well.  Sure, there will be some fish that got away, but we will have taken reasonable efforts to keep our noses clean.

Edited:  I should add that any membership action would first require a careful investigation of the facts.  No frontier justice mindset. 

[NIN]

The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.

How much you want to bet that following that item being posted in that forum, MG Courter and/or the CAP-USAF commander eventually got a phone call from a LOT higher on the food chain that probably touched this off?

"Oh, sorry, General, but I'm going to have to start an IG investigation first.."

Your MAJCOM commander doesn't give two craps whether its really true or not (after all, he read it on the Internet, it _must_ be true!), he wants to know what you're going to be doing about it. Now.

I know MG Courter pretty well. She's not going to put something like this out unless there was sufficient evidence and / or higher echelon interest to warrant it.  Just because the individual sources, and the veracity of those  sources, isn't specifically enumerated in the general's letter does not negate the information.

[caphornbuckle]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

[flyboy53]

One of my favorite reasons for wearing a Corporate Uniform and not an Air Force one.  I can salute anyone I want to.

That's got to be the most selfish, self-serving and totally inappropriate responses I've heard yet.

Whether or not the CSU is not the issue. If truth were known, considering the conduct of the individual who designed that fine piece of nonsense, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there weren't incidents involving CAP members wearing that uniform because of the metal grade insignia.

Is it possible that the incident occurred and set off another CAP Talk dialog? Sure. I saw CAP's image severely damaged back about 1975 when the then IL Wing Commander did the same thing at Chanute AFB. The truth of the matter, however, given how public some blogs (just like this one) are, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the incident was just posted to generate the negative publicity that resulted. No where have we seen the specifics. No where is there any word of a formal report that obviously would have been written in such a situation. I haven't even received this letter of warning.

The thing, though, is that military officers who are so equally arrogant as the alleged CAP Major usually, at some point, experience the ire of their subordinates in one way or another.

The real lesson for all of us here is that respect has to be earned, not demanded. In a very real way, we as CAP members are perceived not that much differently than the WASPs were in World War II...Relish that fact, it builds character! Also consider that nobody's sabotaged an aircraft by putting sugar in a fuel tank (A WASP history lesson) because of the way the CAP's perceived by the Air Force rank and file.

At the 09 NSC, I was approached by a young second lieutenant about the same issue. I gave him the stock, standard answer that I was required to salute him, not the reverse. But then I gave him a history lesson, talking about the anti-sub missions, the 800+ Air Medals (including the first two ever awarded) and I added the two dozen or so who were lost during World War II....all this from volunteers. He agreed that someone serving their Country voluntarily who was at risk of going in harm's way was worthy of a degree of respect. I don't know nor do I care if it meant a salute because I frankly wasn't fishing for that. I do know that he addressed me as "sir" every time I meet him during the next week I was there.

Earn the respect. When you demand it, respect is lost forever.

[HGjunkie]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

Aha, that would be embarassing.

[AlphaSigOU]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

Or as kids these days would say... PWN3D! 

[GTCommando]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

Aha, that would be embarrassing.

^I'll Say! Serves him right. We're civilians, they give their lives every day to protect this great nation and it's people. IMO, it's Kind of a no-brainer.

[Nathan]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

Aha, that would be embarrassing.

^I'll Say! Serves him right. We're civilians, they give their lives every day to protect this great nation and it's people. IMO, it's Kind of a no-brainer.

I'm not sure that would have stopped the conversation. Most trolls would say, "But you aren't wearing your rank, and I am."

[Eclipse]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

No one knows what ID card is in your wallet - there could be a civilian police badge, a Congressional ID, or an employee ID from a bank where you want to get a loan.  Just show common respect, stop trying to settle scores or fix the socio-political state of CAP, act according to the shoulder and move on people.

It takes longer to read this message than the entire interaction.

[NCRblues]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

No one knows what ID card is in your wallet - there could be a civilian police badge, a Congressional ID, or an employee ID from a bank where you want to get a loan.  Just show common respect, stop trying to settle scores or fix the socio-political state of CAP, act according to the shoulder and move on people.

It takes longer to read this message than the entire interaction.

No, the Sra should not have saluted him.

When i was an Airman and worked the front gate, i had CAP members come through several times. I was already a 1st LT. SM, because of me being a past cadet, so a Sra being a major is not beyond reach.

Cap members do not get saluted, plain and simple. Its amazing we volunteer our time, but do not expect ANY active duty to ever salute you. Its nice if they do, but they do not have to. Doesn't matter if at night he goes home and changes into a cap uniform. During his time on duty, he is active duty AF, and follows there rules, regs, ucmj. It says we do not salute CAP members...plain and simple....

[caphornbuckle]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

No one knows what ID card is in your wallet - there could be a civilian police badge, a Congressional ID, or an employee ID from a bank where you want to get a loan.  Just show common respect, stop trying to settle scores or fix the socio-political state of CAP, act according to the shoulder and move on people.

It takes longer to read this message than the entire interaction.

As I said, it was a story I heard and offered whoever told it to take credit for it.  I also mentioned that there were variences on the grade.  This may be an urban legend...so what?

[JK657]

It's been a while since I heard the following story.
Heck it could've been on here! (so take credit if you told it!)
(Different variances on grades though):

A CAP Lieutenant was yelling at an Air Force Senior Airman for not saluting him.
The Senior Airman explains to the lieutenant that he is not required to salute him.
The Lieutenant starts getting angry and demands the Senior Airman to salute him.
The Senior Airman pulls out his wallet and hands the lieutenant a CAP ID Card.
The CAP ID Card showed the Air Force Senior Airman as a CAP Major.

The point:  Be careful of who you try to mess with...they may be someone you don't expect!

You might want to send that to Snopes as it is clearly urban legend nonsense.  The odds of a USAF SrA being a CAP major approach
zero, and in the case it were true, then the SrA should have saluted the CAP Lt as a matter of making the point
that the USAF should respect the nature of our volunteer service, and he has the same dynamic in his CAP uniform.

So, just being a volunteer entitles you automatically to a salute from an enlisted Airman? Do they also need to salute CAP NCOs?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Cap members do not get saluted, plain and simple. Its amazing we volunteer our time, but do not expect ANY active duty to ever salute you. Its nice if they do, but they do not have to. Doesn't matter if at night he goes home and changes into a cap uniform. During his time on duty, he is active duty AF, and follows there rules, regs, ucmj. It says we do not salute CAP members...plain and simple....

I believe the military regs are either silent on the issue or say it is not required. I've always understood it is optional.

If I'm in my gray and whites I salute when required, return any given and do my best to address all RM members by their grade. (I sometimes miss on Navy enlisted )

[RiverAux]

I think Eclipse was suggesting that a CAP member who was also in the military and in military uniform might want to consider saluting a CAP officer of higher rank not because they are required or expected to but because as a CAP member themselves they understand CAP and might want to go that extra step as a courtesy. 

[Eclipse]

So, just being a volunteer entitles you automatically to a salute from an enlisted Airman? Do they also need to salute CAP NCOs?

Obviously not. but you knew that already and chose to skew my point anyway.

[Major Carrales]

New issue or reverse of this...

Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there.  Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?

Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?

[ßτε]

New issue or reverse of this...

Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there.  Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?

Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?

We are duty bound to render C&C. The active duty officer has no authority over CAP members to respect or disrespect.

[Major Carrales]

New issue or reverse of this...

Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there.  Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?

Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?

We are duty bound to render C&C. The active duty officer has no authority over CAP members to respect or disrespect.

And if one does?  How is it to be handled.  An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.

My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.

[caphornbuckle]

New issue or reverse of this...

Suppose an active duty USAF officer attends a CAP meeting that meets at a Civilian Airport and starts to "exercise command" over the operations there.  Suppose this person out ranks the Squadron Commander in grade and starts to effect policy?

Are we "duty bound" to respect that authority?

We are duty bound to render C&C. The active duty officer has no authority over CAP members to respect or disrespect.

And if one does?  How is it to be handled.  An active duty Colonel arrives to your meeting, demands to fly the aircraft citing his credentials as a USAF pilot and Civilian Pilot.

My point is that the situation is the same in ideal, someone over stepping their authority over an organization of which they have no direct connection.

Honestly, I would tell the Colonel to *respectfully* take a flying leap and if he has a problem with it, take it up his chain of command and take it up your own as well.

I think a direct phone call to the Wing Commander would be in order, in your example.  This seems like something that should be solved by a corporate officer.  If need be, the Wing CC can determine where to go from there.  I'm sure the Colonel will be getting a phone call about it from his chain eventually.