HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

[NIN]

BS METER IS RUNNING HIGH RIGHT NOW!!!!!  On line forum , give me a break.  I like facts not fiction.

Yeah, cuz you know everything you read in some online forum posted by someone anonymously is always fiction, right?

Kinda like the anon trolls right here on this online forum.

[Nathan]

I really don't get why some people are complaining about the letter. I mean, it doesn't make sense at all.

Are people actually griping because the National Commander sent out a LETTER, because it was based on an incident reported on an online forum?

For real?

If the incident in question was known never to happen outside of the single accusation, I could under your reactions. If the CC had responded with mandatory training, or new regulations, I could understand such reactions.

But people have their panties in a bunch because a letter was sent to wing commanders advising them that these types of issues take place so they can keep an eye on it, and you think this is somehow bad for CAP, and that the commander is committing an integrity violaion?

Grow up. If you aren't someone mentioned in the letter, then you trying to be offended about this makes you look either confused, or guilty of the accusations. Go find something else to be outraged about. This letter doesn't have enough bite to call the National Commander someone who is against CAP.

[wuzafuzz]

Is there a perceived problem with members trolling for salutes?  Yes.  Accurate or not, it does present an opportunity to address the perception.  Is the letter an overreaction?  Yes.  A simple reminder about appropriate customs and courtesies would have been adequate.  The play by play account was unnecessary IMHO.

Salute trolling, while shameful, isn't a breach of national security.  Nor is it unique to CAP.  I can tell you from personal experience that Hell hath no fury like an Admiral's wife who didn't receive a salute from a civilian gate guard.  (Apparently the guard (not me BTW, but all of us got the chewing out) didn't feel the tremors in the Force when she drove on base in a new car with no windshield sticker.)  All such incidents are held in disdain, whether the involved persons are CAP members, USCG Aux, Sea Cadets, etc.  Although embarrassing, these relatively isolated incidents don't call for the wholesale bashing of entire organizations. 

As someone said earlier, provide counseling or membership action as appropriate and move on.

[Spaceman3750]

It makes me wonder where the inside conspiracy is; Did someone type the letter in reverse and find a hidden message or did it have an Ottendorf Cipher in the text?

It's a vigenere cipher actually, use a standard table and the key "WELOVESAFETY" .

[James Shaw]

It's a vigenere cipher actually, use a standard table and the key "WELOVESAFETY" .

As a former Cryptologist that makes me bust a gut...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[JeffDG]

As someone said earlier, provide counseling or membership action as appropriate and move on.

That's the problem with anonymous internet posts...difficult to provide guided counselling and membership action when the maroon is not identified.  I suppose, based on the quote above, they could demand remedial training for all female Majors, but that's as precise as the identification seems to be.

[Spaceman3750]

It's a vigenere cipher actually, use a standard table and the key "WELOVESAFETY" .

As a former Cryptologist that makes me bust a gut...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Just keep your guts on your side of the forum .

[Nolan Teel]

I will be briefing my squadron next week.  If this is true I'm disappointed that a CAP Member would do such a thing but I will say that I feel "Level 1" does nothing to train CAP Members to wear the uniform and act appropriately to military standards.  I mean really take a few tests and a couple death by power points and congrats your now eligible to be a CAP 2nd Lt?  The big thing I tell all new and old members in my unit is that we set the example.  Even when we think were not being watched someone is.  A new member wanting to fit in while act as they see others acting, plain and simple. 

[EMT-83]

Level 1 is only as good as the squadron makes it. How many times have we heard that Level 1 is an on-line course?

Foundations introduces the idea of wearing uniforms and customs/courtesies. It's important that the person presenting the material does a proper job, and makes sure the new member really understands what is acceptable and what isn't.

[Major Lord]

I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.

My gripe with the letter is that the so-called evidence is totally anecdotal, with no support that the incident actually occurred. You are of course free to believe that this is just the kind of thing that a typical CAP Officer would do, but I think we owe it to our fellow members to act on reason, evidence, and sound principals. Just like the initial reaction of members in this thread:" 2B the sun of a biscuit and move on" is an inappropriate and hasty reaction that did not arise with the benefit of looking at the actual facts of the case, just an inference based on prejudice. If the alleged Officer in the Forum had just "trolled for salutes" ( walking on a military base in uniform where you are likely to have a member of the military decide WTF you are in a split second and make the salute/no salute decision) that is one thing. Its also difficult to distinguish from a CAP Officer walking on a military base in the ordinary course of his duties.

The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.

Major Lord

[JeffDG]

I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.

+1000

I've been on a base (ANG) only once since becoming a member of CAP...I actually went out of my way to avoid wearing a uniform that showed rank, mainly because I felt it inappropriate to have people who could be called into service of the country, seeing my "butter-bars" and thinking they owed me a salute in any way.

[Major Carrales]

I think it is  that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.

+1000

I've been on a base (ANG) only once since becoming a member of CAP...I actually went out of my way to avoid wearing a uniform that showed rank, mainly because I felt it inappropriate to have people who could be called into service of the country, seeing my "butter's" and thinking they owed me a salute in any way.

That would not be something I would do.  We are CAP Officers, NCOs and Cadet wearing the uniform of our organization...the last thing we need is people being afraid or ashamed of our uniform tradition.   The point is, rather, to refrain from the negative behavior posted. 

With the privilege of wearing the uniform comes the responsibility that comes with it.  In that light, respecting our core values and place in the USAF family/team, there is no shame in wearing your uniform.

[JeffDG]

I think it is  that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.

+1000

I've been on a base (ANG) only once since becoming a member of CAP...I actually went out of my way to avoid wearing a uniform that showed rank, mainly because I felt it inappropriate to have people who could be called into service of the country, seeing my "butter's" and thinking they owed me a salute in any way.

That would not be something I would do.  We are CAP Officers, NCOs and Cadet wearing the uniform of our organization...the last thing we need is people being afraid or ashamed of our uniform tradition.   The point is, rather, to refrain from the negative behavior posted. 

With the privilege of wearing the uniform comes the responsibility that comes with it.  In that light, respecting our core values and place in the USAF family/team, there is no shame in wearing your uniform.

Please don't get me wrong...at that point, I didn't feel I had enough information or training on C&C to be able to comport myself appropriately.  Since, I've done the OBC, and it contained significant information about such items, and now I feel I could do proper credit to the uniform and would be less reticent.

The point I was trying to make was we need to show humility.  If you don't understand the C&C attached to the uniform, and the Major in question clearly did not, don't wear it.  When in doubt, don't expect anyone else to render any courtesy to you.  When in doubt, render courtesies to all others.

[A.Member]

I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.

My gripe with the letter is that the so-called evidence is totally anecdotal, with no support that the incident actually occurred. You are of course free to believe that this is just the kind of thing that a typical CAP Officer would do, but I think we owe it to our fellow members to act on reason, evidence, and sound principals. Just like the initial reaction of members in this thread:" 2B the sun of a biscuit and move on" is an inappropriate and hasty reaction that did not arise with the benefit of looking at the actual facts of the case, just an inference based on prejudice. If the alleged Officer in the Forum had just "trolled for salutes" ( walking on a military base in uniform where you are likely to have a member of the military decide WTF you are in a split second and make the salute/no salute decision) that is one thing. Its also difficult to distinguish from a CAP Officer walking on a military base in the ordinary course of his duties.

The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.

Major Lord

There seem to be a number of potential assumptions on both sides of the argument.   You assume that no investigation was done or that they don't know who the offender was.   What facts do you have to support your argument?  It's possible they identified the offender and have taken action.  We don't know.  Assumptions either way are problematic. 

Was a letter needed?   I don't know.  Could the message have been worded or delivered differently?  Perhaps.  Regardless, the fact is that the letter was delivered and, right or wrong, I'll simply take it as a face value as a reminder to reinforce customs and courtesies - I'd hazard a guess that we all know someone that could use the reminder.

[Kojack]

One of my favorite reasons for wearing a Corporate Uniform and not an Air Force one.  I can salute anyone I want to.

[A.Member]

^ This is not at all the issue being discussed.

[Major Lord]

I think it is self-evident that the type of personality who would wave his CAP Major leaves over a member of the real military is not a person who suffers from a lack of training, but from fundamental deficits of character. Certainly there are occasional misunderstandings, but the kind of problem of described in the letter is something that is best addressed in membership committees, not policy letters, with sound fundamental practices thoroughly discussed in Level 1 or subsequent training.

My gripe with the letter is that the so-called evidence is totally anecdotal, with no support that the incident actually occurred. You are of course free to believe that this is just the kind of thing that a typical CAP Officer would do, but I think we owe it to our fellow members to act on reason, evidence, and sound principals. Just like the initial reaction of members in this thread:" 2B the sun of a biscuit and move on" is an inappropriate and hasty reaction that did not arise with the benefit of looking at the actual facts of the case, just an inference based on prejudice. If the alleged Officer in the Forum had just "trolled for salutes" ( walking on a military base in uniform where you are likely to have a member of the military decide WTF you are in a split second and make the salute/no salute decision) that is one thing. Its also difficult to distinguish from a CAP Officer walking on a military base in the ordinary course of his duties.

The allegation was that a member of our organization accosted a member of of the military in a manner that was highly inappropriate. If this is true, then naturally the National Command instituted an investigation to determine the facts, right? Certainly you could just e-mail the complainant on the board and ask for the time, place, and description of the alleged Major. No, instead it appears that they reflexively over-reacted in an attempt to do damage control where none was necessary, and ended up looking silly and overly emotional in the process. Now, if on the other hand, they conducted a thorough investigation and determined the veracity of the allegations, I will stand corrected.

Major Lord

There seem to be a number of potential assumptions on both sides of the argument.   You assume that no investigation was done or that they don't know who the offender was.   What facts do you have to support your argument?  It's possible they identified the offender and have taken action.  We don't know.  Assumptions either way are problematic. 

Was a letter needed?   I don't know.  Could the message have been worded or delivered differently?  Perhaps.  Regardless, the fact is that the letter was delivered and, right or wrong, I'll simply take it as a face value as a reminder to reinforce customs and courtesies - I'd hazard a guess that we all know someone that could use the reminder.

The first paragraph of the letter clearly states that this is driven by anecdotal evidence. If otherwise, why would they qualify the source of the allegation?

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Even if the forum post was faked, it obviously represents situations that do happen now and again. 

Perhaps a reminder about the importance of C&C is a good thing even if the incident that prompted it may or may not be accurate. 

[spacecommand]

Unfortunately it takes one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch.  CAP in my opinion is filled with outstanding people who would not do such a thing.  However doesn't mean a few bad apples exist.  They exist in many organizations, including the Air Force.  While I have not read the other forum, I can guarantee you the vast majority of the posts derogatory to CAP are misinformed posts of ALL of us being a group of wannabes this and that.

A little detective work would not take long to figure out who it might be:
-Female
-CAP Major
-On AF installation

Just identify, what State or Base and a little detective work, it won't take long to identify the person and find out their version of events.
We are only hearing one side, which could be real or completely made up.

Real or not real, no doubt bad apples exist out there, however the organization as a whole I believe is not like those bad apples.
Not to mention there are people out there who have nothing but bad things or only write about the bad aspects of CAP.

[Larry Mangum]

This is not the first instance of someone trolling for a salute and unfortunately will not be the last. It was proper for the National Commander to address the issue as while this involved one individual on a base, the posting of it on a website associated with the Air Force and there by reflecting on all of CAP.

Let's simply remind ourselves and fellow members that such behavior will not be tolerated.