HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

[researchdoc]

Said Letter:
https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/Military_Salute_Letter_to_all_CAP_members.pdf

That link doesn't work outside of logging into eServices... when logged in look on the news.. should be top one.

[Flying Pig]

The argument about a CAP Major not being able to be a SrAmn is assuming that everyone joins the military at age 18.  I have a member who is a CAP Capt and an A1C in the Air Guard and he is in his late 20's.

[jimmydeanno]

My wife was a CAP Major when she was a SrA on Active Duty.  Now she's a 2d Lt on Active Duty and still a Major.  But I agree that the odds are rather slim - but not unheard of.

[ZigZag911]

A good friend of mine was CAP Major, squadron CC, and at the same time TSgt in Air Nat'l Guard.

[Flying Pig]

I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express

[Eclipse]

I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express

But I bet it was less than 1% of your total lifespan!

[Hawk200]

I remember when in Air Force tech school back in '90 when there was something CAP related happening at Sheppard. A fellow squadron member had been a cadet, got her Earhart. I asked her a little about the program. She explained to me about cadets and senior members. One thing I distinctly recall her telling me was that CAP senior member offciers wore the usual military rank insignia, and for that reason they were required to be saluted.

I imagine that by now, she is either no longer a member, or has been educated about our customs and courteousies. However, the idea that our officers are supposed to be saluted by military enlisted is apparently not even remotely new.

Seems like a little more Level 1 education may be in order. That and a few regular reminders of some of those things. CAP personnel overall probably don't regularly interact with military personnel, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to reinforce "the way it's supposed to be."

[Smithsonia]

I think C and Cs are important for the military and CAP. That said, it is sometimes confusing to know what to do and when.
Sometimes even the military gets it wrong. 

http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1588995-Protocol-for-Reville-Retreat-amp-TAPS-in-base-housing

There are times when cultures clash accidentally. For Instance - My Grandfather, being a WW1 Officer, used to stand and salute the TV when the National Anthem was played at the
end of the Broadcast Day. He thought I was a lazy, ineffectual, and ignorant boy for not doing the same. So when I was in his house, I stood in silence then saluted the TV.

I think this issue and specifically this trolling anecdote displeases and shames us all. If we knew the offended we would personally apologize on behalf of the Patrol. If we knew the offending member we would take that person to task for bringing discredit to us all. We don't know either. We have been warned by our commander. It is to all of us to make sure we spread the word.

I don't think this indicates a major break in the Air Force and CAP. I have received nothing but thanks from the Air Force. I have always received deep appreciation from Air Force personnel. They always seem very happy with our volunteerism and professionalism. So like my Grandfather - I'll take the General's general reminder and train members better at all times. However, we can't control every thing at all times. In this it is a bit like safety. Zero tolerance is one thing. Zero events is another. Since events will occasionally occur. Then give the Air Force it's blood. Find the offender. Fire the offender. Take appropriate personnel action. Be ruthless about the issue, but make it personal. Spread the word that blood has been let. 

Proposal: Spend a little more time on Cs and Cs in level one training. Fire all offenders with prejudice. Let the Air Force know - that while it may occur on rare occasions - it will never be tolerated. Please provide us with a name and place and we'll make sure that there is a CAP career death penalty. Otherwise, tell the Air Force that both the CSU and this matter have been promptly addressed and don't come to us with 3rd person hearsay, spurious rumors, or "I was tolds.".

[JoeTomasone]

The Truth:


1.  Many RM personnel have no idea what CAP is and have no idea that our officers are non-commissioned and not required to be saluted, and thus will salute "just in case" or out of ignorance.

2.  Some RM personnel will salute CAP officers even if they understand that they do not need to either out of habit, respect, or lack of recognition of the CAP member as a CAP member.

3.  Many RM personnel will not render a salute to CAP either because it is not required, or because of a lack of respect (for whatever reason).

4.  Some CAP members are misinformed and think that they are entitled to salutes from RM just as they are from CAP members.

5.  Some CAP members once were trained/informed that CAP is not entitled, but forgot, or are so used to it from CAP members (and don't encounter RM enough) that they forget.

6.  Some CAP members likely are aware that they are not entitled to salutes, but count on #1 or #2.   

7. Sometimes, a given combination of #1-6 create unfortunate circumstances that lead to issues/butt-pain/ego/embarassment/etc on one or both parts.


I personally have no problem with Gen Courter's letter.   Regardless of how serious of an issue this particular case may or may not have become, we all know that there are folks who fit into #4-6 that could one day trigger a serious incident.    I have zero problem with the CAP/CC requesting that all members be reminded/informed as to what our status is and where we fit in the pecking order.   In fact, I wish she would write another letter reminding everyone that C&C are to be followed in CAP IAW CAPP 151 and that 39-1 is not optional, in whole or in part.     


Speaking for myself, I feel about the same about my CAP service as I did as a civilian contractor on a base in the sandbox - while I may be "only" a civilian contractor/CAP member, without me, certain jobs don't get done -- I'm doing my part just like our brethren in the RM.    No, I don't pick up a weapon and defend our Nation against its enemies, but I would submit that a great portion of our military does not, either.    This doesn't make the solider who serves in a support capacity any less important, however.    As a contractor and a CAP member, I am/was providing support functions as a part of the larger team that help/helped the team execute the overall mission, regardless of how minor my part might be/might have been.     Remember, there's very few places that can function for very long without the janitor. 

Therefore, when a member of the RM for whatever (pick a) reason proffers a salute, I respond in kind as a member of the extended team.   If a salute is not proffered, I do not take offense, since I remain cognizant that I am not entitled to one.    But then, that's not why I do what I do. 

As to the incident that kicked off the letter and this thread, I certainly hope that everyone who has or who might have demanded courtesies to which they were not entitled is now sufficiently informed not only about how wrong their beliefs in this regard were, but also as to the potential problems that can be caused be acting on said erroneous beliefs.

[JK657]

Very well said ^^^^^^^^^

[bosshawk]

FWIW: this supposed letter hasn't even been distributed in CAWG.  I guess that our 3500 members don't need to be reminded of this "supposed" problem.  Or, our Wing hierarchy doesn't think that it warrants distrirbution: might disturb our cadets.

8 days and counting.

[blackrain]

You know there were areas inside the wire downrange where you would have RM O-5s or O-6s get upset when the didn't get a salute. Granted it was inside the wire but I would rather have everyone in the habit of NOT saluting in that part of the world. There is a reason a salute in a war-zone is also known as a "sniper check"

To me the ultimate sign of respect from my troops was accomplishing the mission, not a salute.

[Thom]

FWIW: this supposed letter hasn't even been distributed in CAWG.  I guess that our 3500 members don't need to be reminded of this "supposed" problem.  Or, our Wing hierarchy doesn't think that it warrants distrirbution: might disturb our cadets.

8 days and counting.

Well, I'm not sure what it says about the CAWG staff's promptness, but the letter is no longer 'supposed'.

It was posted to the News section of eServices two days ago for the whole world (of CAP members) to see.


Thom

[bosshawk]

Late, breaking news, it was sent out by the Wing CC on Sunday afternoon.  As far as I was concerned, it was "supposed" until I saw it from an authorized source.

[davidsinn]

Late, breaking news, it was sent out by the Wing CC on Sunday afternoon.  As far as I was concerned, it was "supposed" until I saw it from an authorized source.

It's been in eServices for two days now. How much more authorized does it get?

[bosshawk]

I have a habit of checking eServices about once every two weeks, whether I need to or not.  I have likely checked it for the last time in my CAP service, as my membership expires in 8 days and I have no intention of renewing it.

[Grumpy]

Back when we had actual classes during Level I, we would stress the fact the our "officers" did not rate a salute from the REAL military but we were required to salute them.  Do you think that, just maybe, it gets passed over too lightly and doesn't make a strong enough impression now that everything is done on line?

[Major Lord]

I have a habit of checking eServices about once every two weeks, whether I need to or not.  I have likely checked it for the last time in my CAP service, as my membership expires in 8 days and I have no intention of renewing it.

May I ask why you are choosing not to renew? It can't be just this thread! When I was making my recent decision to renew or not, this discussion was heavy on my mind. Honor begins in truth, and it seems the "Officer Corp" of CAP took a face slap from its own self-serving leadership, based on what appear to be questionable  claims. Honor not worth defending is not worth having, and show me a CAP member who would treat an Air Force enlisted member in such a fashion, and I would be the first guy to slip a condom on my boot and conduct a thorough "reeducation" program.

Although it appears to me that CAP is circling the drain, I think most of our problems are problems of leadership. It often appears that we are an agency  filled with stagnancy and constantly arguing for our own limitations, foundering in the boggy mire of indecision, mired in uniform minutia,  and a pathological fear of looking bad. Instead, we should be promoting what we could do for our country, if given half a chance. I am betting another 75.00 bucks that enough of the "leadership" will come floating down the river to be replaced with  people who care more about doing something worthwhile, and less about writing memoranda that are not just pointless, but actually harmful.  Good luck with whatever happens next if you decide not to renew, CAP could use a guy like you.

Major Lord 

[EMT-83]

Back when we had actual classes during Level I, we would stress the fact the our "officers" did not rate a salute from the REAL military but we were required to salute them.  Do you think that, just maybe, it gets passed over too lightly and doesn't make a strong enough impression now that everything is done on line?

Why does this myth continue to exist? Level 1 is not an on-line course.

[davidsinn]

Back when we had actual classes during Level I, we would stress the fact the our "officers" did not rate a salute from the REAL military but we were required to salute them.  Do you think that, just maybe, it gets passed over too lightly and doesn't make a strong enough impression now that everything is done on line?

Why does this myth continue to exist? Level 1 is not an on-line course.

True. But with the exception of part of CPPT and the summary conversation, all of the courses required are online.

http://capmembers.com/cap_university/level_i_foundations.cfm